Hearthpwn

Why is this an argument? Aren't Jade decks like control decks?  

Quote from Entro9 >>

The fact that a single card (jade idol) entirely removed an archetype of deck from the game (mill/fatigue) is a sign that it was a dumb design choice

Quote from Krezione >>

Quote from SchruteBucks >>

Sigh. Here we go again.  Jade didn't ruin control, it merely forced other control decks to find ways to win that weren't fatigue.  Because Reno is the only viable control oriented deck at the present (blame Kazakus and Patches, NOT Jade Idol), and because Renolock is the only Reno based control deck with end game burst/big finisher, it's easy to point the finger at Jade Idol for "ruining control."

Jade (Jade Idol/Druid specifically) didn't ruin control, stop saying it did.

 That's it !

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

People sticking up for this card kill me. Why is it OK for only one deck to have infinite draw value, on top of rising stats for 1 mana? 

 Why isn't it? 

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

People sticking up for this card kill me. Why is it OK for only one deck to have infinite draw value, on top of rising stats for 1 mana? 

 Why isn't it? 

Still waiting...

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

People sticking up for this card kill me. Why is it OK for only one deck to have infinite draw value, on top of rising stats for 1 mana? 

 Why isn't it? 

Still waiting...

 You're making the claim, so you have to prove why it's bad before anyone else has to prove why it isn't. 

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

People sticking up for this card kill me. Why is it OK for only one deck to have infinite draw value, on top of rising stats for 1 mana? 

 Why isn't it? 

Still waiting...

 You're making the claim, so you have to prove why it's bad before anyone else has to prove why it isn't. 

Guys, Jade Idol didn't only ruin Fatigue archetypes, it also ruined slow decks as a whole. Honestly, what control option other than combolock do you have ? none other than bad druid luck really  (malygod shenanigans actually work but they are barely viable in the game).

Please, don't compare this to CW vs Freeze. Freeze is one deck, control is a part of the community.

And don't tell me it's only one class so it's fine. By pushing many players to avoid such an unfair game, the aggro ratio went up around 15%*, making the game far less attractive for control players (and for everyone I guess..).

So yes we are very right to continue alerting about jade idols, because we were still able to a have a bit of fun in the game (obviously not in aggro or idol match-ups).

* Measured an increase from ~60% to ~75% aggro decks in the meta (EU, from Dec to Feb, from rank 5 to 2).

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

People sticking up for this card kill me. Why is it OK for only one deck to have infinite draw value, on top of rising stats for 1 mana? 

 Why isn't it? 

Still waiting...

 You're making the claim, so you have to prove why it's bad before anyone else has to prove why it isn't. 

 What claim? It was a question and I asked it first.

So stop dicking around and answer it.

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

People sticking up for this card kill me. Why is it OK for only one deck to have infinite draw value, on top of rising stats for 1 mana? 

 Why isn't it? 

Still waiting...

 You're making the claim, so you have to prove why it's bad before anyone else has to prove why it isn't. 

 What claim? It was a question and I asked it first.

So stop dicking around and answer it.

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from Whateverwithu >>

People sticking up for this card kill me. Why is it OK for only one deck to have infinite draw value, on top of rising stats for 1 mana? 

 Why isn't it? 

Still waiting...

 You're making the claim, so you have to prove why it's bad before anyone else has to prove why it isn't. 

 What claim? It was a question and I asked it first.

So stop dicking around and answer it.

The claim was "It is not okay for a deck to have infinite draw value, on top of rising stats for 1 mana." I counter-argue that "It *is* okay for a deck to have infinite draw value, on top of rising stats for 1 mana." I don't have to explain why because you didn't explain why it isn't okay. Our arguments have equal substance and cancel each other out. 

Quote from SchruteBucks >>

Sigh. Here we go again.  Jade didn't ruin control, it merely forced other control decks to find ways to win that weren't fatigue.  Because Reno is the only viable control oriented deck at the present (blame Kazakus and Patches, NOT Jade Idol), and because Renolock is the only Reno based control deck with end game burst/big finisher, it's easy to point the finger at Jade Idol for "ruining control."

Jade (Jade Idol/Druid specifically) didn't ruin control, stop saying it did.

Aggressive or Control? Don't we get other options like Midrange, Combo or Mill?  :D 

I would like to see a mixed meta (the one we have right now is almost there it just needs slightly less SMOrc Warrior and slightly more Combo Decks) 

Quote from AntonAmby >>

Aggressive or Control? Don't we get other options like Midrange, Combo or Mill?  :D 

I would like to see a mixed meta (the one we have right now is almost there it just needs slightly less SMOrc Warrior and slightly more Combo Decks) 

Quote from MistaMoh >>

Guys, Jade Idol didn't only ruin Fatigue archetypes, it also ruined slow decks as a whole.

Please, don't compare this to CW vs Freeze. Freeze is one deck, control is a part of the community.

 

Quote from LordPikachuStarscream >>

Quote from MistaMoh >>

Guys, Jade Idol didn't only ruin Fatigue archetypes, it also ruined slow decks as a whole.

Please, don't compare this to CW vs Freeze. Freeze is one deck, control is a part of the community.

 

 Actually, Freeze Mage is part of the Combo archetype, which as a whole suffers at the hands of Control Warrior, so it is not just one deck. 

Quote from Scarthcaroth >>

Quote from SchruteBucks >>

Sigh. Here we go again.  Jade didn't ruin control, it merely forced other control decks to find ways to win that weren't fatigue.  Because Reno is the only viable control oriented deck at the present (blame Kazakus and Patches, NOT Jade Idol), and because Renolock is the only Reno based control deck with end game burst/big finisher, it's easy to point the finger at Jade Idol for "ruining control."

Jade (Jade Idol/Druid specifically) didn't ruin control, stop saying it did.

 Exceeeeept that's a half truth. Control decks are always more attrition based. Remove minions with most efficient removal tools until you arrive on a stable board position from where you can then win. That's what control does. Yes, some control decks have alternate winconditions that can ignore such a thing but that simply happens to be the Renolock with the Leeroy combo.  But that's only because Warlock has the innate drawpower to run a combo like that reliably. Aside from also having the card to make it so over the top with Power Overwhelming. The other wincondition that warlock always ran, Jaraxxus? It's nothing else than what I've described. Clear the board until it's a stable game situation and then slap your big threat on the board, in this case one that keeps generating value, similar to Jade druid. With the difference Jaraxxus first of all can only played by himself not with anything else the turn he activates. And the stuff he spawns has a fixed value while only spawning once a turn. Plus Jaraxxus puts himself at risk by capping HP at 15.

Just in comparison that is a far more fair lategame option compared to Jade which in essence does the same aka put a timer on the game because there are not enough removal options available to deal with it.

Renodecks /can/ win through fatigue but that's not neccessarily what they aim to do just because they can. Attrition is not the same as fatigue.

Basically you are creating a false equivalence where every control deck that doesn't aim to instantly finish you with some kind of burst combo is a fatigue deck which is flat out wrong. This is partially because not every deck is even capable of such combos. Control doesn't win versus Jade not because they can't fatigue them but because their removal can't keep up with the endless generation of threats. Heck Midjadeshaman is strong but as a control deck you do not neccessarily end up struggling versus them as much as druid because you know that their threat generation is for one, finite and for another their drawing power sucks.

The problem in itself isn't purely based on the Jade Idol, the blame lays partly there the other part rests on the auctioneer which lets druid cycle through their whole deck with hardly any effort at all thus keep up with their threat generation.

 

The broken thing about jade idol is that the 3 shuffeled cards are the same as their source. It could easily be fixed by making a jade idol token card that doesn't have the option to get more copies.

i loved the 50 shades of warrior meta, warrior had viable decks in al shapes from aggro and mid range (Pirate as aggro, Dragons as eithe rof the two, Patron as mid-range) and control (basically Yogg warrior, c'thun warrior and n'zoth warrior were viable control decks with different win conditions), meaning that even if most of the games were against warriors there'd be a lot of diversity because of the sheer amount of  widely different viable warrior decks, nowadays you see a warrior and you pretty much know it's smash face pirates :(, way to devolve a class Blizz!,

Quote from Brannrik >>

I also feel that jade idol is super broken - no other card no even combo of a few cards has had the power before to remove whole archtyped from the meta. 

Quote from SchruteBucks >>

Quote from Scarthcaroth >>

Quote from SchruteBucks >>

Sigh. Here we go again.  Jade didn't ruin control, it merely forced other control decks to find ways to win that weren't fatigue.  Because Reno is the only viable control oriented deck at the present (blame Kazakus and Patches, NOT Jade Idol), and because Renolock is the only Reno based control deck with end game burst/big finisher, it's easy to point the finger at Jade Idol for "ruining control."

Jade (Jade Idol/Druid specifically) didn't ruin control, stop saying it did.

 Exceeeeept that's a half truth. Control decks are always more attrition based. Remove minions with most efficient removal tools until you arrive on a stable board position from where you can then win. That's what control does. Yes, some control decks have alternate winconditions that can ignore such a thing but that simply happens to be the Renolock with the Leeroy combo.  But that's only because Warlock has the innate drawpower to run a combo like that reliably. Aside from also having the card to make it so over the top with Power Overwhelming. The other wincondition that warlock always ran, Jaraxxus? It's nothing else than what I've described. Clear the board until it's a stable game situation and then slap your big threat on the board, in this case one that keeps generating value, similar to Jade druid. With the difference Jaraxxus first of all can only played by himself not with anything else the turn he activates. And the stuff he spawns has a fixed value while only spawning once a turn. Plus Jaraxxus puts himself at risk by capping HP at 15.

Just in comparison that is a far more fair lategame option compared to Jade which in essence does the same aka put a timer on the game because there are not enough removal options available to deal with it.

Renodecks /can/ win through fatigue but that's not neccessarily what they aim to do just because they can. Attrition is not the same as fatigue.

Basically you are creating a false equivalence where every control deck that doesn't aim to instantly finish you with some kind of burst combo is a fatigue deck which is flat out wrong. This is partially because not every deck is even capable of such combos. Control doesn't win versus Jade not because they can't fatigue them but because their removal can't keep up with the endless generation of threats. Heck Midjadeshaman is strong but as a control deck you do not neccessarily end up struggling versus them as much as druid because you know that their threat generation is for one, finite and for another their drawing power sucks.

The problem in itself isn't purely based on the Jade Idol, the blame lays partly there the other part rests on the auctioneer which lets druid cycle through their whole deck with hardly any effort at all thus keep up with their threat generation.

 

 Control isn't simply "remove all your threats until you run out and then win by default."  It's "remove your threats efficiently and turn card advantage into board advantage and then take over the aggression."  Why was old Control Priest made better by Elise?  Because it previously had no late game finish and was simply the first scenario I described.  It OFTEN relied on simply running an opponent out of threats, and just dealing a tiny amount of damage at time.  

I've lost to Renolock, Reno Mage, mid/control Shaman, as a Jade Druid player.  They were able to remove my threats and then turn that into board advantage, which I could go face with my 8/8s or just die the next turn.  Jade Idol didn't ruin control, so stop saying it did.

Quote from SchruteBucks >>

Quote from Scarthcaroth >>

Quote from SchruteBucks >>

Sigh. Here we go again.  Jade didn't ruin control, it merely forced other control decks to find ways to win that weren't fatigue.  Because Reno is the only viable control oriented deck at the present (blame Kazakus and Patches, NOT Jade Idol), and because Renolock is the only Reno based control deck with end game burst/big finisher, it's easy to point the finger at Jade Idol for "ruining control."

Jade (Jade Idol/Druid specifically) didn't ruin control, stop saying it did.

 Exceeeeept that's a half truth. Control decks are always more attrition based. Remove minions with most efficient removal tools until you arrive on a stable board position from where you can then win. That's what control does. Yes, some control decks have alternate winconditions that can ignore such a thing but that simply happens to be the Renolock with the Leeroy combo.  But that's only because Warlock has the innate drawpower to run a combo like that reliably. Aside from also having the card to make it so over the top with Power Overwhelming. The other wincondition that warlock always ran, Jaraxxus? It's nothing else than what I've described. Clear the board until it's a stable game situation and then slap your big threat on the board, in this case one that keeps generating value, similar to Jade druid. With the difference Jaraxxus first of all can only played by himself not with anything else the turn he activates. And the stuff he spawns has a fixed value while only spawning once a turn. Plus Jaraxxus puts himself at risk by capping HP at 15.

Just in comparison that is a far more fair lategame option compared to Jade which in essence does the same aka put a timer on the game because there are not enough removal options available to deal with it.

Renodecks /can/ win through fatigue but that's not neccessarily what they aim to do just because they can. Attrition is not the same as fatigue.

Basically you are creating a false equivalence where every control deck that doesn't aim to instantly finish you with some kind of burst combo is a fatigue deck which is flat out wrong. This is partially because not every deck is even capable of such combos. Control doesn't win versus Jade not because they can't fatigue them but because their removal can't keep up with the endless generation of threats. Heck Midjadeshaman is strong but as a control deck you do not neccessarily end up struggling versus them as much as druid because you know that their threat generation is for one, finite and for another their drawing power sucks.

The problem in itself isn't purely based on the Jade Idol, the blame lays partly there the other part rests on the auctioneer which lets druid cycle through their whole deck with hardly any effort at all thus keep up with their threat generation.

 

 Control isn't simply "remove all your threats until you run out and then win by default."  It's "remove your threats efficiently and turn card advantage into board advantage and then take over the aggression."  Why was old Control Priest made better by Elise?  Because it previously had no late game finish and was simply the first scenario I described.  It OFTEN relied on simply running an opponent out of threats, and just dealing a tiny amount of damage at time.  

I've lost to Renolock, Reno Mage, mid/control Shaman, as a Jade Druid player.  They were able to remove my threats and then turn that into board advantage, which I could go face with my 8/8s or just die the next turn.  Jade Idol didn't ruin control, so stop saying it did.