We now have a card introduced to HS that generate infinite time and resource (jade idol), and we also have cards that prey specifically on the value in your deck (drakonid).
I don't have an issue with those concepts, they're quite cool in a vacuum - but we also need tools to answer them beyond just tempo, or we'll end up with a very one-sided meta untill these designs rotate out.
If this is the direction HS is going to go, I think it is time to open the door for non-random control tools that interfere directly with your opponents hand and deck... card destruction, card swapping, draw destruction, interfere with draw order and so forth. These tools should of course be placed in the other classes with a heavy control theme.
You do know that the devs doesn't read the posts on Hearthpwn? Soooo, what's the point of this thread? Are we supposed to come up with Control cards? Or is this just a disguised salt-thread? :D
(I actually like the mechanics of Jade Idol a lot, but I do agree that it lacks counter-play outside of tempo strategies) :)
You do know that the devs doesn't read the posts on Hearthpwn? Soooo, what's the point of this thread? Are we supposed to come up with Control cards? Or is this just a disguised salt-thread? :D
(I actually like the mechanics of Jade Idol a lot, but I do agree that it lacks counter-play outside of tempo strategies) :)
I'm trying to generate a discussion about a specific type of control tools that HS doesn't have, but given where it has gone - it might be time to look if those would be good or bad for the game. They would surely be hated by a lot of people who enjoy HS for its simplicity.
I'm not trying to reach developers, I'm trying to reach the hundreds of players who discuss issues like this on these forums daily and see if they agree or disagree with me.
These are objectively terrible ideas. Consider how unfun and uninteractive it would be to have any of those sorts of tools played against you. I'd rather play against nothing but secret paladin or pirate warrior than have card and draw destruction constantly interfering with my options, because at least those can be countered. Picture every game you've ever played where your opponent managed to get you to overdraw and burn a crucial card, and now picture if that required no setup at all and was just a spell effect. It was this exact sort of feeling that caused Blizzard to nerf Big Game Hunter.
Another thing to note is that the mechanics you're suggesting would probably do more harm to control decks than decks running Jade Idol or Drakonid Operative. Both of those decks fall towards the midrange spectrum, meaning that they'll usually still have other resources to win with after you've burned their value generating cards. Control decks, however, rely on having the right answers at the right time to deal with opposing threats until the opponent runs out of resources, allowing the control deck to drop its own threats that the opponent no longer has resources to handle. This makes them much more vulnerable to the sorts of mechanics suggested. The best analogue I can think of is that a control deck dropping Doomsayer onto an empty board preventing a midrange deck from playing any minions for a turn is strong, but rarely game winning, whereas a midrange deck dropping Loatheb to prevent a control player from playing removal/board clear usually is a game winning move.
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These are objectively terrible ideas. Consider how unfun and uninteractive it would be to have any of those sorts of tools played against you. I'd rather play against nothing but secret paladin or pirate warrior than have card and draw destruction constantly interfering with my options, because at least those can be countered. Picture every game you've ever played where your opponent managed to get you to overdraw and burn a crucial card, and now picture if that required no setup at all and was just a spell effect. It was this exact sort of feeling that caused Blizzard to nerf Big Game Hunter.
Another thing to note is that the mechanics you're suggesting would probably do more harm to control decks than decks running Jade Idol or Drakonid Operative. Both of those decks fall towards the midrange spectrum, meaning that they'll usually still have other resources to win with after you've burned their value generating cards. Control decks, however, rely on having the right answers at the right time to deal with opposing threats until the opponent runs out of resources, allowing the control deck to drop its own threats that the opponent no longer has resources to handle. This makes them much more vulnerable to the sorts of mechanics suggested. The best analogue I can think of is that a control deck dropping Doomsayer onto an empty board preventing a midrange deck from playing any minions for a turn is strong, but rarely game winning, whereas a midrange deck dropping Loatheb to prevent a control player from playing removal/board clear usually is a game winning move.
That doesn't make much sense to me. We're already allowing infinite resource generation and punishing you for value, it makes it logical that other classes with a controllish theme should have abilities that are thematically different but allows for punishment of such tactics.
I don't see what aggro and tempo has to do with it, aggro and tempo is good for the game. It keeps greed down.
It's decent enough, but it is a neutral. I'm looking more for these types of abilities in the opposing classes with a strong control theme in card selection.
It's decent enough, but it is a neutral. I'm looking more for these types of abilities in the opposing classes with a strong control theme in card selection.
It's decent enough, but it is a neutral. I'm looking more for these types of abilities in the opposing classes with a strong control theme in card selection.
Classes aren't inherently control.
And never at any point did I say they were. I wrote "the opposing classes with a strong control theme in card selection".
So what we need is a spell/minion with the effect: if your opponent has 3 or more of any card, destroy all copies of this card.
Job done.
That would be a very crude way of doing it, and it would probably be wise to make it a broader theme.
Like say, denying your opponent mana, draws, destroy cards in his hand and so forth. And yes, a lot of people would not like that, but people dislike a lot of things.
My point is merely that when we have allowed some classes to have very strong to infinite resource generation, the other classes with a strong selection of controllish cards should have something thematically to oppose it.
I've played lots of other card-games than Hearthstone, where they have mechanics that limit your opponent options - and i for one really like the idea. (it would also mean that Blizzard wouldn't have to nerf every single combo deck as this mechanic counter that We've already seen a bit of cards that were made to limit your opponent though: Loatheb: Was actually designed to be a counter to burn decks (to be more specific Freeze Mage) it just turned out to be too strong so it was used in a lot of Aggressive/Tempo decks instead of what it was intended to do.. Mana Wraith: (yes i know it never saw play) In some other games you see this mechanic a lot more and there's decks designed around making your opponent unable to do anything. Dirty Rat: This is a great counter to battlecry minions, you can win games by dragging out the right minion. (like Alex) I would like to see more of these mechanics... :)
If we just need a control tech card against decks like Jade Druid would this work?
- Blizzard said that they already tried out ''discard from opponent'' mechanics but they didn't like them... (which makes no sense because they just made Dirty Rat)
This is a card that probably shouldn't exist in Hearthstone. This is one of my favorite things to do in Magic the Gathering (Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress), because I'm a heartless control player whose greatest joy is preventing my opponent from playing Magic. Having this ability from Hearthstone would probably turn a lot of people off from the game.
Also, since minion combat is so core to Hearthstone's mechanic, having cheap removal spells would probably be too powerful as well (things like Path to Exile, Dismember, etc)
This is a card that probably shouldn't exist in Hearthstone. This is one of my favorite things to do in Magic the Gathering (Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress), because I'm a heartless control player whose greatest joy is preventing my opponent from playing Magic. Having this ability from Hearthstone would probably turn a lot of people off from the game.
Also, since minion combat is so core to Hearthstone's mechanic, having cheap removal spells would probably be too powerful as well (things like Path to Exile, Dismember, etc)
I agree that it is very contrary to what kind of game HS has tried to be. It is, as you allude to, likely not done because people find it frustrating.
But I do contend that by opening the doors to selectively drawing from your opponents deck and generating infinite resource, those kind of abilities should be included in the game, as counters beyond merely pushing for tempo.
Well, they could just add a neutral card that is "destroy a jade golem, shuffle a copy of this card into your deck". That would solve the fatigue issue, but would also mean that some games would end up being a draw,
This is a card that probably shouldn't exist in Hearthstone. This is one of my favorite things to do in Magic the Gathering (Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress), because I'm a heartless control player whose greatest joy is preventing my opponent from playing Magic. Having this ability from Hearthstone would probably turn a lot of people off from the game.
Also, since minion combat is so core to Hearthstone's mechanic, having cheap removal spells would probably be too powerful as well (things like Path to Exile, Dismember, etc)
I agree that it is very contrary to what kind of game HS has tried to be. It is, as you allude to, likely not done because people find it frustrating.
But I do contend that by opening the doors to selectively drawing from your opponents deck and generating infinite resource, those kind of abilities should be included in the game, as counters beyond merely pushing for tempo.
In magic i start with seven cards in hand, in hearthstone I start with three. Also they aren't generating infinite resources, they are invalidating a degenerate strategy(fatigue), not degenerate in a power sense but in a design goals sense you don't want a deck that just sits there and waits 40 turns and never actually does anything.
This is a card that probably shouldn't exist in Hearthstone. This is one of my favorite things to do in Magic the Gathering (Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress), because I'm a heartless control player whose greatest joy is preventing my opponent from playing Magic. Having this ability from Hearthstone would probably turn a lot of people off from the game.
Also, since minion combat is so core to Hearthstone's mechanic, having cheap removal spells would probably be too powerful as well (things like Path to Exile, Dismember, etc)
I agree that it is very contrary to what kind of game HS has tried to be. It is, as you allude to, likely not done because people find it frustrating.
But I do contend that by opening the doors to selectively drawing from your opponents deck and generating infinite resource, those kind of abilities should be included in the game, as counters beyond merely pushing for tempo.
In magic i start with seven cards in hand, in hearthstone I start with three. Also they aren't generating infinite resources, they are invalidating a degenerate strategy(fatigue), not degenerate in a power sense but in a design goals sense you don't want a deck that just sits there and waits 40 turns and never actually does anything.
This makes very little sense as a counter-point. The types of tools I have described would also punish fatigue decks.
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We now have a card introduced to HS that generate infinite time and resource (jade idol), and we also have cards that prey specifically on the value in your deck (drakonid).
I don't have an issue with those concepts, they're quite cool in a vacuum - but we also need tools to answer them beyond just tempo, or we'll end up with a very one-sided meta untill these designs rotate out.
If this is the direction HS is going to go, I think it is time to open the door for non-random control tools that interfere directly with your opponents hand and deck... card destruction, card swapping, draw destruction, interfere with draw order and so forth. These tools should of course be placed in the other classes with a heavy control theme.
You do know that the devs doesn't read the posts on Hearthpwn?
Soooo, what's the point of this thread?
Are we supposed to come up with Control cards?
Or is this just a disguised salt-thread? :D
(I actually like the mechanics of Jade Idol a lot, but I do agree that it lacks counter-play outside of tempo strategies) :)
I'm trying to generate a discussion about a specific type of control tools that HS doesn't have, but given where it has gone - it might be time to look if those would be good or bad for the game. They would surely be hated by a lot of people who enjoy HS for its simplicity.
I'm not trying to reach developers, I'm trying to reach the hundreds of players who discuss issues like this on these forums daily and see if they agree or disagree with me.
If it was salt, I'd post it in the salt thread.
These are objectively terrible ideas. Consider how unfun and uninteractive it would be to have any of those sorts of tools played against you. I'd rather play against nothing but secret paladin or pirate warrior than have card and draw destruction constantly interfering with my options, because at least those can be countered. Picture every game you've ever played where your opponent managed to get you to overdraw and burn a crucial card, and now picture if that required no setup at all and was just a spell effect. It was this exact sort of feeling that caused Blizzard to nerf Big Game Hunter.
Another thing to note is that the mechanics you're suggesting would probably do more harm to control decks than decks running Jade Idol or Drakonid Operative. Both of those decks fall towards the midrange spectrum, meaning that they'll usually still have other resources to win with after you've burned their value generating cards. Control decks, however, rely on having the right answers at the right time to deal with opposing threats until the opponent runs out of resources, allowing the control deck to drop its own threats that the opponent no longer has resources to handle. This makes them much more vulnerable to the sorts of mechanics suggested. The best analogue I can think of is that a control deck dropping Doomsayer onto an empty board preventing a midrange deck from playing any minions for a turn is strong, but rarely game winning, whereas a midrange deck dropping Loatheb to prevent a control player from playing removal/board clear usually is a game winning move.
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I'll take Dirty Rat for 200, Alex.
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My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
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My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
So what we need is a spell/minion with the effect: if your opponent has 3 or more of any card, destroy all copies of this card.
Job done.
Obviously! Duh.
Totally not because it's braindead simple and uses mostly basic cards to beat the living shit out you in just 5 turns.
They need to make a Loatheb type card again.
Justicar Trueheart in Rogue?
Ahhh okay, :D
I've played lots of other card-games than Hearthstone, where they have mechanics that limit your opponent options - and i for one really like the idea. (it would also mean that Blizzard wouldn't have to nerf every single combo deck as this mechanic counter that
We've already seen a bit of cards that were made to limit your opponent though:
Loatheb: Was actually designed to be a counter to burn decks (to be more specific Freeze Mage) it just turned out to be too strong so it was used in a lot of Aggressive/Tempo decks instead of what it was intended to do..
Mana Wraith: (yes i know it never saw play) In some other games you see this mechanic a lot more and there's decks designed around making your opponent unable to do anything.
Dirty Rat: This is a great counter to battlecry minions, you can win games by dragging out the right minion. (like Alex)
I would like to see more of these mechanics... :)
If we just need a control tech card against decks like Jade Druid would this work?
- Blizzard said that they already tried out ''discard from opponent'' mechanics but they didn't like them... (which makes no sense because they just made Dirty Rat)
This is a card that probably shouldn't exist in Hearthstone. This is one of my favorite things to do in Magic the Gathering (Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress), because I'm a heartless control player whose greatest joy is preventing my opponent from playing Magic. Having this ability from Hearthstone would probably turn a lot of people off from the game.
Also, since minion combat is so core to Hearthstone's mechanic, having cheap removal spells would probably be too powerful as well (things like Path to Exile, Dismember, etc)
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What's poppin,' player?
Well, they could just add a neutral card that is "destroy a jade golem, shuffle a copy of this card into your deck". That would solve the fatigue issue, but would also mean that some games would end up being a draw,
Also they aren't generating infinite resources, they are invalidating a degenerate strategy(fatigue), not degenerate in a power sense but in a design goals sense you don't want a deck that just sits there and waits 40 turns and never actually does anything.
This makes very little sense as a counter-point. The types of tools I have described would also punish fatigue decks.