I miss Handlock so much ;( is it even possible to reverse the nerf of molten giants? even to 22 health... It was by far, my most beloved deck in this game beside control warrior. I loved every single game to play with it or to play against it, and even to watch it being played. Back in the days, when you've played handlock, you had to think of EVERY SINGLE MOVE you'd make. I tend to think, even now, that this deck was the most challenging deck ever created - easy to learn, but hard to master. Now Hearthstone is like: "play minons on curve, and win as fast as possible", back then, it was very entertaining, demanding, amazing to watch games which were literally 30 minutes long, it was soooooooo epic to watch Handlock vs Control Warriors or even other classes being rekt by this deck in early stages of the game (face hunters were just insta-conceeding after placing 2 ancient watchers and sunfury between them**good times**) I wish handlock was still viable such as control warrior, i mean, why warrior wasn't nerfed? It got stronger with the addition of elise, ghoul, cthun, but handlock... handlock was nerfed to the ground and it makes me and many other people sad pandas. Maybe if there was a chance to get a new card similar to molten, and some new heal cards in the next expansion, we may see handlock again in the meta.
Some may say "residentsleeper is bad for this game" IMO, these type of decks that require thinking, planning, making every move relevant are the most breathtaking and amazing decks in this game, teaching every each and one of you, how to analyze, how to make strategic decisions, they teach to anticipate and carefully make your move. The game's state have worsend over the course of time, since tgt it is just playing minions on curve and hope for fast win - it's just like a rat race.
I think most would agree with you about the Molten Giant nerf, but there are also more than a few of the masses who lament the fact Handlock was always in the meta, seemingly no matter what.
As they used to say, "Handlock is always viable."
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Demonlock in Wild is close to the fun and skilllevel of old Classic Handlock. Don't feel exactly the same but still fun. ;-)
I miss it too man. One of the coolest decks ever created. RIP Handlock, RIP Patron and RIP Miracle. Blizzard, why? Molten Giant nerf was the dumbest thing ive ever saw. Blade furry nerf... Blizzard smart!! Fuck this game. Cool, skillfull and fun decks are beeing destroyed because the casual hearthstone player can't pilot them and is complaining.
Miracle is making a return, not tier 1 but definitely viable now.
1. Handlock would have been very strong, probably too strong, if Molten would have stayed the same. So Blizzard took the opportunity respectively initiative and nerfed Molten Giant, while everybody was concerned with other things. They could not have chosen a better time for the nerf. Although I agree that it was an overkill.
2. I for myself am a little bit happy that Handlock left the game, because I am a Priest player mostly. Bias aside, Handlock helped keeping the meta somewhat healthy. A tier 2 Handlock deck wouldn't hurt anyone - probably.
3. The nerf needed to be done -although Handlock and Zoo were the only types of good Warlock decks by the way. Especially Handlock had always the potential to become broken. You could go as far and say that Handlock needed to die out. It was a deck that existed since the very beginnings. As Blizzard stated, they wanted to ensure that with the introduction of Standard new Warlock shall decks rise with every rotation. Financially spoken, making new viable decks makes them earn more money, so removing a very old deck is a welcome thing to do for them. But Blizzard failed in this department, as they actually only have one and a half viable decks in Zoo and Renolock - which will die as well soon. Killing Handlock is the one thing, but not giving any alternatives is actually the real issue.
4. Hearthstone is not complex enough and this needs to be changed. Skill has to matter way more than it does currently. Even with Handlock, Classic Control Priest and full-strength Miracle Rogue, the game isn't very challenging. In my opinion, the game needs more levels of complexity like Secrets for all classes or a completely new card type. Also they need to increase the Standard card pool by adding single, innovative cards from sets that rotated out.
They completely destroyed Handlock. How: 1. Molten Giant nerf 2. BGH nerf 3. Ironbeak Owl nerf 4. Antique Healbot rotating out 5. Introducing Old Gods (Jaraxxus is just dead against C'thun or N'zoth decks)
Molten Giant nerf, or how to delete from the game the only neutral classic card that actually punished moronic face rushes.
When I got first into this game, I did'nt like handlock at all, and looked for something that could punish it (and that damn zoolock). But as I got cards for it in my packs, I decided to give it a try. And oh, damn, how much did I enjoy it!
Since face shaman handlock was agonizing, but Molten Giant nerf was brutal to say the least. I miss explosive giants so much...
I would not expect it to come back, because it would need warlock to get cards that encouraged to play attrition wars, and should compensate like 5 expansions of encouraging aggro (and renolock, wich is just a far-less-exciting handlock). And well, I really doubt I'm gonna see that any time soon.
But well, I hope I'm just pesimistic and they are actually trying to ressurrect one of the most skillful and interesting decks of Hearthstone's history.
They completely destroyed Handlock. How: 1. Molten Giant nerf 2. BGH nerf 3. Ironbeak Owl nerf 4. Antique Healbot rotating out 5. Introducing Old Gods (Jaraxxus is just dead against C'thun or N'zoth decks)
The nerfs of BGH and Owl weren't that bad, the cards are still playable, in a "modern" handlock build you don't need to have silence effects, you may put 1 BGH and still get profit from it, but in the current meta all nerfed cards are unplayable. However, the molten giant nerf was just... i have no words to describe how bad it was to make it 25 hit points... Now it is just unplayable, you need to get below 9hp to get it to work, which next turn is just "do or die" - in many cases, the second option, because of the large ammount of burst your opponent has. I wish there was a petition to change molten's hp to at least 23
I am no handlock player, i have only faced it spme times, so i know very little.
But i see so many of you focusing around molten giant as if that nerf alone screwed the deck... But isn't mountain giant almost as good? At least to the extent of making tge deck viable?
I am no handlock player, i have only faced it spme times, so i know very little.
But i see so many of you focusing around molten giant as if that nerf alone screwed the deck... But isn't mountain giant almost as good? At least to the extent of making tge deck viable?
The problem is that molten giant was your fall back plan.After its nerf the game became even more ''smorc'' friendly than it was.You see both players had to play around the giants,if you faced a handlock you had respect his hp pool and not leaving him in his comfortable zone,as a handlock sometimes you had to leave your opponent damage you so you can play your giants next turn.The game was more interesting.Now the aggresive player has nothing to consider.
As for the mountain giant no unfortunately is not as good.You can make a handlock somewhat work(if you see the homepage there is a handlock deck atm and its mine XD) but it's not the same deck.And by that I don't just mean in power lvl but in actual playstyle.The best way to make a ''modern handlock'' work is to turn it in to an explosive ''tempo'' deck which is not the control deck it was before.
Don't forget we also lost Antique Healbot and didn't get any good self heal in return. The nerf to Molten Giant definitely killed the deck but even with the old version Handlock wouldn't be a Tier 1 deck currently. Losing Mal'Ganis (My favorite card of all time) hurts too.
@RavenSunHP Handlock included both Mountain Giant AND Molten Giant, so that is not a replacement nor do they serve the same purpose. Mountain Giant is used as an 'early' game threat by dropping it as early as turn 4 whereas Molten Giant was mostly used as a late game taunt wall together with Sunfury or Defender of Argus followed by Healbot for the ultimate fuck you to SMOrc decks.
I too loved Handlock, it was definitely one of the most complex decks that ever existed and it was a lot of fun too. I miss it...
I've been playing Malygos lock lately and it sort of reminds me of the play style in that I usually have a lot of cards in hand, there are taunts, heals, direct damage spells, board clears and 4/10 (sometimes even 4/19!) Twilight Drakes. :D It's also a lot of fun and can be played as Control, Midrange or Combo, depending on the situation. I play it in Wild because Standard has just gotten too boring for me.
I am no handlock player, i have only faced it spme times, so i know very little.
But i see so many of you focusing around molten giant as if that nerf alone screwed the deck... But isn't mountain giant almost as good? At least to the extent of making tge deck viable?
Molten Giant was the core of the deck, because at that time there was lots of aggro that pushed you very low, like shamans nowadays, you could play it for free and taunt it up or shadowflame it, or even play it, then play healbot afterward. To play it now you have to be veeeery low on health, and after you play it, you cant do anything else because you have not enough mana
I think now Handlock simply has evolved (or adapted) into Renolock and for Renolock it is still viable on ladder. For Molten Giant nerf, I agree with you, it's too much!
I think it was a mistake to say basic/classic should always be available in full in standard.
If they instead just had an evolving basic/classic set where they added/removed cards every year; cards like molten could take a vacation in wild one year, and return to standard another. Now we just have a sad molten collecting dust...
I would make the card cost 30, but any damage taken to your hero permanently reduces the cost, so if you were to heal, the cost would be unaffected. This would be in line with Blizz not wanting 2 massive cards on turn 5 (in warlock, shamans are allowed,) while still leaving it open as a possibility.
I would make the card cost 30, but any damage taken to your hero permanently reduces the cost, so if you were to heal, the cost would be unaffected. This would be in line with Blizz not wanting 2 massive cards on turn 5 (in warlock, shamans are allowed,) while still leaving it open as a possibility.
As a past handlock main, and someone who's tried to bring handlock into the current meta by hook or by crook, I'm pretty confident in saying that the amount of healing options are 1.insufficient 2.too much of a tempo loss 3.not high impact enough to allow your to survive(unless u use Reno but then it's not rly handlock)
honestly I wish blizzard just left moltens the way they were, now warlocks are rather confined to using their hero power aggressively and playing aggressive tempo decks instead of the more calculating and planning intensive play style that handlock offered.
I think now Handlock simply has evolved (or adapted) into Renolock and for Renolock it is still viable on ladder. For Molten Giant nerf, I agree with you, it's too much!
Renolock compared to good old classic handlock is nothing, its like comparing a piece of paper to Great Wall of China, renolock has problems with sustaining in the shaman meta, ive seen a YT clip of a guy who doubled reno and jaraxus which is 105 health in total and still lost to aggro shaman, comparing it to handlock there was no way that a mere shaman/hunter could kill you turn 7-8 if you taunted up with moltens and then heal for a lot, it is just as @jmxd said, it was the ultimate "fuck you" to players who tried to rush you down as quickly as possible. Face hunter was just as cancerous as shaman is right now, and when you played handlock you had the tools against midrange, aggro and control in one deck! building a similar deck nowadays is just impossible.... I remember hunters queuing up against me and i helped them rush myself very low i just played 2x moltens and sunfury with a healbot and they just emote me "i will hunt you down" and conceded right away. Funny, because aggro players couldn't stand any chance against you, it was like an auto-win, even if you dropped turn 2/3 an ancient watcher they just BMote me and conceded turn 3/4. Compare it to playing heavy control warrior against a freeze mage - its just auto-win with a 90-100% win ratio
I mean I think that the situation with Hearthstone is what you call a paradox. Blizzard claims they want the game to be competitive (basically the game should be more about skill than luck) and at the same time encourage Curvestone (which according to me is a more casual / simple way to play, use up mana -> win the game. Before anyone complains I am not saying these decks shouldn't exist, but they certainly shouldn't be the very best decks in any meta). At this same time the best neutral control minion released in recent time is Yogg (according to me at least) and that is pretty funny considering how RNG dependent it is and how little it has to do with skill. I mean it was a way of clearing the board (even for classes who didn't have good cards to do that) with the added benefits of healing / drawing etc. On the other hand, it was really frustrating to play against because of the nearly infinite amount of possible outcomes. I mean is it that hard to print good cards that punish opponents who mindlessly go face and don't even play around board clears as much because let's be honest the AOEs of the game are terrible? On top of that the healing in the game is pretty bad considering that with most of these cards you at most buy yourself an extra turn.
This may be cynical of me, but I believe Blizzard hasn't had an interest in making the slower decks (that require more planning and skill to pilot) good. This is due to the fact that a lot of people would rather play quick games and not have to dedicate time to actually learn how to play the game. Let's be honest in this way Hearthstone can retain a bigger player base (people who like the complicated decks will try to make them work anyway with the scraps they are thrown in each expansion).
To be fair to Blizzard I think the Molten Giant nerf was done because BGH was getting nerfed and they didn't want to have a deck with 4 8/8 minions that you can get out for very cheap (especially since several classes don't have very good answers to that), but in my experience (from GvG when I got into the HS to now) the game has been less about skill and more about curving out as time went on. Playing on curve is easier in decks with lower curves and with great early game cards being released in each set, but not enough good ways to answer them there is little reason to try to play decks that require skill and that leads to our current predicament. Let's hope Blizzard listens to our complaints and delivers on November 4th with the new expansion announcement.
To add my thoughts on the Molten Giant thing I do think that 25 mana is overkill, but there is no way it is getting buffed (because of Blizzard's no buff policy). RIP Handlock you will be missed (unless they come up with some creative way to make Handlock good again).
I mean I think that the situation with Hearthstone is what you call a paradox. Blizzard claims they want the game to be competitive (basically the game should be more about skill than luck) and at the same time encourage Curvestone (which according to me is a more casual / simple way to play, use up mana -> win the game. Before anyone complains I am not saying these decks shouldn't exist, but they certainly shouldn't be the very best decks in any meta). At this same time the best neutral control minion released in recent time is Yogg (according to me at least) and that is pretty funny considering how RNG dependent it is and how little it has to do with skill. I mean it was a way of clearing the board (even for classes who didn't have good cards to do that) with the added benefits of healing / drawing etc. On the other hand, it was really frustrating to play against because of the nearly infinite amount of possible outcomes. I mean is it that hard to print good cards that punish opponents who mindlessly go face and don't even play around board clears as much because let's be honest the AOEs of the game are terrible? On top of that the healing in the game is pretty bad considering that with most of these cards you at most buy yourself an extra turn.
This may be cynical of me, but I believe Blizzard hasn't had an interest in making the slower decks (that require more planning and skill to pilot) good. This is due to the fact that a lot of people would rather play quick games and not have to dedicate time to actually learn how to play the game. Let's be honest in this way Hearthstone can retain a bigger player base (people who like the complicated decks will try to make them work anyway with the scraps they are thrown in each expansion).
To be fair to Blizzard I think the Molten Giant nerf was done because BGH was getting nerfed and they didn't want to have a deck with 4 8/8 minions that you can get out for very cheap (especially since several classes don't have very good answers to that), but in my experience (from GvG when I got into the HS to now) the game has been less about skill and more about curving out as time went on. Playing on curve is easier in decks with lower curves and with great early game cards being released in each set, but not enough good ways to answer them there is little reason to try to play decks that require skill and that leads to our current predicament. Let's hope Blizzard listens to our complaints and delivers on November 4th with the new expansion announcement.
To add my thoughts on the Molten Giant thing I do think that 25 mana is overkill, but there is no way it is getting buffed (because of Blizzard's no buff policy). RIP Handlock you will be missed (unless they come up with some creative way to make Handlock good again).
Really well said dude, It sure is saddening how so little of the player base would devote their time to learn complex decks like handlock, control priest, miracle rogue, ramp Druid and control warrior(although control warrior may be waaay to expensive for most) as well as how little help blizzard gives to supporting players of these more complicated decks.(I'm not saying tempo decks don't require skill and are not complex, it's just that their skill floor is so ridiculously high at the moment that slow control decks are rendered mostly irrelevant)
I miss Handlock so much ;( is it even possible to reverse the nerf of molten giants? even to 22 health... It was by far, my most beloved deck in this game beside control warrior. I loved every single game to play with it or to play against it, and even to watch it being played. Back in the days, when you've played handlock, you had to think of EVERY SINGLE MOVE you'd make. I tend to think, even now, that this deck was the most challenging deck ever created - easy to learn, but hard to master. Now Hearthstone is like: "play minons on curve, and win as fast as possible", back then, it was very entertaining, demanding, amazing to watch games which were literally 30 minutes long, it was soooooooo epic to watch Handlock vs Control Warriors or even other classes being rekt by this deck in early stages of the game (face hunters were just insta-conceeding after placing 2 ancient watchers and sunfury between them**good times**) I wish handlock was still viable such as control warrior, i mean, why warrior wasn't nerfed? It got stronger with the addition of elise, ghoul, cthun, but handlock... handlock was nerfed to the ground and it makes me and many other people sad pandas. Maybe if there was a chance to get a new card similar to molten, and some new heal cards in the next expansion, we may see handlock again in the meta.
Some may say "residentsleeper is bad for this game" IMO, these type of decks that require thinking, planning, making every move relevant are the most breathtaking and amazing decks in this game, teaching every each and one of you, how to analyze, how to make strategic decisions, they teach to anticipate and carefully make your move. The game's state have worsend over the course of time, since tgt it is just playing minions on curve and hope for fast win - it's just like a rat race.
I think most would agree with you about the Molten Giant nerf, but there are also more than a few of the masses who lament the fact Handlock was always in the meta, seemingly no matter what.
As they used to say, "Handlock is always viable."
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1. Handlock would have been very strong, probably too strong, if Molten would have stayed the same. So Blizzard took the opportunity respectively initiative and nerfed Molten Giant, while everybody was concerned with other things. They could not have chosen a better time for the nerf. Although I agree that it was an overkill.
2. I for myself am a little bit happy that Handlock left the game, because I am a Priest player mostly. Bias aside, Handlock helped keeping the meta somewhat healthy. A tier 2 Handlock deck wouldn't hurt anyone - probably.
3. The nerf needed to be done -although Handlock and Zoo were the only types of good Warlock decks by the way. Especially Handlock had always the potential to become broken. You could go as far and say that Handlock needed to die out. It was a deck that existed since the very beginnings. As Blizzard stated, they wanted to ensure that with the introduction of Standard new Warlock shall decks rise with every rotation. Financially spoken, making new viable decks makes them earn more money, so removing a very old deck is a welcome thing to do for them. But Blizzard failed in this department, as they actually only have one and a half viable decks in Zoo and Renolock - which will die as well soon. Killing Handlock is the one thing, but not giving any alternatives is actually the real issue.
4. Hearthstone is not complex enough and this needs to be changed. Skill has to matter way more than it does currently. Even with Handlock, Classic Control Priest and full-strength Miracle Rogue, the game isn't very challenging. In my opinion, the game needs more levels of complexity like Secrets for all classes or a completely new card type. Also they need to increase the Standard card pool by adding single, innovative cards from sets that rotated out.
They completely destroyed Handlock. How: 1. Molten Giant nerf 2. BGH nerf 3. Ironbeak Owl nerf 4. Antique Healbot rotating out 5. Introducing Old Gods (Jaraxxus is just dead against C'thun or N'zoth decks)
Molten Giant nerf, or how to delete from the game the only neutral classic card that actually punished moronic face rushes.
When I got first into this game, I did'nt like handlock at all, and looked for something that could punish it (and that damn zoolock). But as I got cards for it in my packs, I decided to give it a try. And oh, damn, how much did I enjoy it!
Since face shaman handlock was agonizing, but Molten Giant nerf was brutal to say the least. I miss explosive giants so much...
I would not expect it to come back, because it would need warlock to get cards that encouraged to play attrition wars, and should compensate like 5 expansions of encouraging aggro (and renolock, wich is just a far-less-exciting handlock). And well, I really doubt I'm gonna see that any time soon.
But well, I hope I'm just pesimistic and they are actually trying to ressurrect one of the most skillful and interesting decks of Hearthstone's history.
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I am no handlock player, i have only faced it spme times, so i know very little.
But i see so many of you focusing around molten giant as if that nerf alone screwed the deck... But isn't mountain giant almost as good? At least to the extent of making tge deck viable?
Don't forget we also lost Antique Healbot and didn't get any good self heal in return. The nerf to Molten Giant definitely killed the deck but even with the old version Handlock wouldn't be a Tier 1 deck currently. Losing Mal'Ganis (My favorite card of all time) hurts too.
@RavenSunHP
Handlock included both Mountain Giant AND Molten Giant, so that is not a replacement nor do they serve the same purpose. Mountain Giant is used as an 'early' game threat by dropping it as early as turn 4 whereas Molten Giant was mostly used as a late game taunt wall together with Sunfury or Defender of Argus followed by Healbot for the ultimate fuck you to SMOrc decks.
I too loved Handlock, it was definitely one of the most complex decks that ever existed and it was a lot of fun too. I miss it...
I've been playing Malygos lock lately and it sort of reminds me of the play style in that I usually have a lot of cards in hand, there are taunts, heals, direct damage spells, board clears and 4/10 (sometimes even 4/19!) Twilight Drakes. :D It's also a lot of fun and can be played as Control, Midrange or Combo, depending on the situation. I play it in Wild because Standard has just gotten too boring for me.
What I really miss is Oil Rogue, it seems that any deck that requires above average skill to pilot is nerfed into oblivion.
I think now Handlock simply has evolved (or adapted) into Renolock and for Renolock it is still viable on ladder. For Molten Giant nerf, I agree with you, it's too much!
I miss being able to play Handlock too.
I think it was a mistake to say basic/classic should always be available in full in standard.
If they instead just had an evolving basic/classic set where they added/removed cards every year; cards like molten could take a vacation in wild one year, and return to standard another. Now we just have a sad molten collecting dust...
I would make the card cost 30, but any damage taken to your hero permanently reduces the cost, so if you were to heal, the cost would be unaffected. This would be in line with Blizz not wanting 2 massive cards on turn 5 (in warlock, shamans are allowed,) while still leaving it open as a possibility.
I mean I think that the situation with Hearthstone is what you call a paradox. Blizzard claims they want the game to be competitive (basically the game should be more about skill than luck) and at the same time encourage Curvestone (which according to me is a more casual / simple way to play, use up mana -> win the game. Before anyone complains I am not saying these decks shouldn't exist, but they certainly shouldn't be the very best decks in any meta). At this same time the best neutral control minion released in recent time is Yogg (according to me at least) and that is pretty funny considering how RNG dependent it is and how little it has to do with skill. I mean it was a way of clearing the board (even for classes who didn't have good cards to do that) with the added benefits of healing / drawing etc. On the other hand, it was really frustrating to play against because of the nearly infinite amount of possible outcomes. I mean is it that hard to print good cards that punish opponents who mindlessly go face and don't even play around board clears as much because let's be honest the AOEs of the game are terrible? On top of that the healing in the game is pretty bad considering that with most of these cards you at most buy yourself an extra turn.
This may be cynical of me, but I believe Blizzard hasn't had an interest in making the slower decks (that require more planning and skill to pilot) good. This is due to the fact that a lot of people would rather play quick games and not have to dedicate time to actually learn how to play the game. Let's be honest in this way Hearthstone can retain a bigger player base (people who like the complicated decks will try to make them work anyway with the scraps they are thrown in each expansion).
To be fair to Blizzard I think the Molten Giant nerf was done because BGH was getting nerfed and they didn't want to have a deck with 4 8/8 minions that you can get out for very cheap (especially since several classes don't have very good answers to that), but in my experience (from GvG when I got into the HS to now) the game has been less about skill and more about curving out as time went on. Playing on curve is easier in decks with lower curves and with great early game cards being released in each set, but not enough good ways to answer them there is little reason to try to play decks that require skill and that leads to our current predicament. Let's hope Blizzard listens to our complaints and delivers on November 4th with the new expansion announcement.
To add my thoughts on the Molten Giant thing I do think that 25 mana is overkill, but there is no way it is getting buffed (because of Blizzard's no buff policy). RIP Handlock you will be missed (unless they come up with some creative way to make Handlock good again).