The Yogg nerf is fine, I don't understand why everyone is crying wolf and saying RIP Yogg, 1600 dust here I come. It's still a big and exciting card, it's just going to be less of a coinflip.
I like the nerf, but it's now even more of a coinflip than before. It increases variance in the outcome while also lowering that outcome's expected value.
I feel like overall the nerfs are very well measured. All of the cards except Charge remain playable, although some now are niche rather than auto-include.
I do feel like the Rockbiter nerf is probably the most questionable, not so much because it makes the card awful but because it remains feasible for its most hated use case (Doomhammer combo) but now is probably dead in use cases that most currently consider fair (early removal).
This latest round of nerfs confirms what I already knew. Blizzard doesn't nerf things for balance reasons necessarily, they just listen to the community and what cards they complain about the most. Problem is most of the players are low rank people, who will always complain about some card regardless.
Instead of using a pro balance team, and analyzing data...they just listen to those who cry the most often and cry the loudest. Every single card in this set of nerfs was complained about a great deal by the salty community.
Yes there will be celebrations and cheers from the whiners, like there has been with past nerfs. Then after a short while, they will go on to make more nerf threads and cry about other cards. Blizzard is trying to satisfy a group that can't be satisfied regardless of what changes they make. I'm glad I play other card games, cause even if there are criers in all competitive games balance teams mostly ignore them and objectively balance the game.
we wont see too many yogg decks cause he is dumb as f**k. I see too many times when yogg i the only win comdition and it just shadowstep himself with first spell or just pyro himself. Now he is pretty bad, i get him pretty much times as last card and he just kills me with fatigue dmg. Like 5 times out of 10 he kills me today and like 10 times i was killed by aggro decks so i didnt get him at all
I really wonder how much time was taken testing out these changes. Adjust a few cards here and there, and it is easily possible for a whole new set of issues to arise that might not have been desired.
This latest round of nerfs confirms what I already knew. Blizzard doesn't nerf things for balance reasons necessarily, they just listen to the community and what cards they complain about the most. Problem is most of the players are low rank people, who will always complain about some card regardless.
Instead of using a pro balance team, and analyzing data...they just listen to those who cry the most often and cry the loudest. Every single card in this set of nerfs was complained about a great deal by the salty community.
I counter with Flamewreathed Faceless. If they only listen to the low ranked people, this card would have been nerfed.
Couldn't you possibly entertain the fact that Blizzard use all of: Community feedback, internal data, and pro analysis, as part of deciding what to nerf?
There were a lot of shaman cards complained about, they weren't going to nerf eveything. However doomhammer + rockbiter was complained about so much so they nerfed rockbiter (this is probably the worst nerf if we look at card value, blessing of the might anyone?). Tuskarr totemic has been complained about forever. So yeah thing below and faceless were also complained about, but again they aren't going to nerf every single powerful card shaman had.
It was all community feedback. Just like the druid nerfs, just like starving buzzard, killing grim patron (well that type of grim patron), etc etc. It is a terrible way to balance things. Competitive games bring competitive people. What does that mean? Competitive people hate to lose, and the weak minded of these will blame it on something else other than themselves every time regardless of what is changed. Listening to fragile, extremely biased, low skilled players like that is stupid. However it is those, even though they unlikely represent the majority, who will flood forums with countless threads and posts containing their illogical rants. Thus they are the ones blizzard hears the most, the people they should actually listen to the least.
Happiest to see Execute get nerfed from 1 to 2 mana. I feel like Shield Slam was in the same boat, and wonder if you couldn't have done it to it as well, but I'd lean conservatively to do 1 and analyze the need for another. I hope this is enough to slow down Warrior's ability to just ping these kills in without affecting their mana curve. You never want to destroy a class, but this was out of hand, and is a good first measure to address it.
I just worry that Blizzard have now made it clear that if people complain about a card enough even if they are not part of the evergreen set then they will nerf it. Because it pretty much means that anything can be up for getting nerfed. The main problem I have with this is not the latest round of cards that have been nerfed by Blizzard, but rather there have been a lot of threads on this site asking for nerfs on cards that are good but are not game breaking such as Azure Drake. I am just concerned that this may lead to cards that are strong but not unfair also getting nerfed as a consequence.
This latest round of nerfs confirms what I already knew. Blizzard doesn't nerf things for balance reasons necessarily, they just listen to the community and what cards they complain about the most. Problem is most of the players are low rank people, who will always complain about some card regardless.
Instead of using a pro balance team, and analyzing data...they just listen to those who cry the most often and cry the loudest. Every single card in this set of nerfs was complained about a great deal by the salty community.
Yes there will be celebrations and cheers from the whiners, like there has been with past nerfs. Then after a short while, they will go on to make more nerf threads and cry about other cards. Blizzard is trying to satisfy a group that can't be satisfied regardless of what changes they make. I'm glad I play other card games, cause even if there are criers in all competitive games balance teams mostly ignore them and objectively balance the game.
You tell me that Tuskarr Totemic was fine and I'll pee in your morning cereal. Maybe drop you an air bisquit or two.
Not a legend player here but that card was flat out cheating when it hit. Which it felt like 60% of the time it screwed you over.
The others? I don't really care much. They are fine. I would have just rotated Yogg a year early instead of nerfing, but, this doens't bother me. It's all fine, but, Tuskarr?????
There were a lot of shaman cards complained about, they weren't going to nerf eveything. However doomhammer + rockbiter was complained about so much so they nerfed rockbiter (this is probably the worst nerf if we look at card value, blessing of the might anyone?). Tuskarr totemic has been complained about forever. So yeah thing below and faceless were also complained about, but again they aren't going to nerf every single powerful card shaman had.
It was all community feedback. Just like the druid nerfs, just like starving buzzard, killing grim patron (well that type of grim patron), etc etc. It is a terrible way to balance things. Competitive games bring competitive people. What does that mean? Competitive people hate to lose, and the weak minded of these will blame it on something else other than themselves every time regardless of what is changed. Listening to fragile, extremely biased, low skilled players like that is stupid. However it is those, even though they unlikely represent the majority, who will flood forums with countless threads and posts containing their illogical rants. Thus they are the ones blizzard hears the most, the people they should actually listen to the least.
You realise that Even professional Players and Streamers (I know they may not be pro but they play a lot and normally at high ranks) wanted some of these changes, especially Yogg-Saron. If they did look at community feedback alone (and not what the pro's/streamers say) Flamewreath faceless, Totem Golem and feiry war axe would be nerfed, along with Yogg almighty.
I think all these nerfs are great, I am mostly happy about Tuskarr as that was a big problem card.
Excellent nerfs. Ever since I've started playing it has felt like the weapons classes dominate. These nerfs seem to acknowledge that, they even nerfed warrior a tiny bit, which makes me really happy.
I.. apparently live in a cave.. out in the woods.. next to the drawing of a penis on the moon.
So yeah, this post is exactly how I found out about the changes. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and be cute and look at the changes and write the responses as I see them.. So here we go!!!!
Rockbiter weapon: 1 mana to 2 mana
This......is interesting. So they want to keep rockbiter as a burst card but don't want it to work well as a removal as well. I guess the idea is to make it less usable for anything. Not sure this is enough but I get the idea.
Tuskaar: Now only summons basic totems..
O M G many people called this one.. and it's happening.
I'll let the many pro players dancing in the street answer the question over whether this is a good change and just say "yeah, I feel the same."
And yes, I also feel that leaving golem and Trogg alone works. They will fit well in Wild. And it turns out 4 mana 7/7 isn't OP after all, given that many tournament decks dropped him and really he worked because too many people run no-removal tempo decks and had to deal with Tuskaar-into-Golem all the time.
CotW: from 8 mana to 9
And many people on the forums are dancing in the street. I'm glad the card's power stays as I WANT high mana cards to be powerful. And 9 mana makes it so that you can't go highmane/highmane/CotW/CotW anymore, and fits better to the stats it throws at you.
Execute: From 1 mana to 2
Execute... I got spoiled since I read the post above me warning of this but... intersting. Don't see why and don't see how this changes anything but..again don't see the problem, don't see how this makes things worse so.. ok *shrug*
Charge: From 3 mana to 1...
OMG WHAT! WHY DID YOU...
...and it's changed from 'give a friendly minion +2 attack and charge' to "give a friendly minion charge.. it can't attack heros this turn." and 1 mana
..oh...wow...... I THINK they found a way to 'gut' a card without ruining it and leaving it ruined. This is...interesting.
So basically OTK is dead. But now warriors can drop a big creature and for 1 mana turn it into a minion removal. AND warriors has another card to use as a pyromancer fuel. I'm liking this one. And i htink they could only make this now since this is effectively Fool's Bane's text.
Abusive Sergeant, from 2 attack to 1.
Fair. Basically the same mentality as Leper Gnome. Still usable for some decks but now it's not an auto-in I think
Yogg-Saron...
(I literally stopped here a second /I'm looking at the name but havn't scrolled to see the change.. So this is the big one. I'm scared to see what's happened to it. NOW I'm scrolling.. and reading the prelim text :P. )
Ok here it is:
The text stays the same, but now "Yogg-Saron will now stop casting spells if, during Yogg-Saron’s battlecry, it is destroyed, silenced, transformed," AND "In addition to the above changes, we will be addressing the bug where cards with Overload cast by Yogg-Saron, Hope’s End will not cause Overload to the player in a future update."
So basically, Yogg has to be existance and able to keep casting. If it's messed up in any way, it stops. So that legendary "PRAISE YOGG" video would've stopped casting at around 4 spells. Also it means that it's less reliable as a recovery tool since overload will mess with you.
I... don't know. Is this enough? It's not too much. But is it enough? It still means Yogg does the full effect if it lives. It DOES mean that dropping him against an empty board is basically a worthless idea since he WILL mess himself up. Thing is, I'm not sure he's nerfed enough to make hiim bad in Yogg Druid as the entire point of Yogg druid is to play him against a strong enemy board, which means the Doom he casts will still be worth it even if he doesn't do anything else.
Thus I can see him no logner really useful in non Mage/Druid, and MAYBE be enough to make Yogg Mage not reliable enough but ....I still see a heavy Yogg Druid showing for blizzcon.
And that's it.
Overall great choices for many of the changes. A few "well Ok whatever" but Yogg is interesting but may not be nough of a change.
.....
Wait I just realized something while I was just about to say silencing a battle cry makes no sense then I realized it say during his battle cry? But if I recall corrctly in hearthstone mechanics battle cry occurs before the minion hits the board so why the fuck can yogg cast spells on himself?
It's amusing that rather than nerf the new cards they added that screwed things up they go after old cards as if that's somehow more acceptable. Yet another reason why we need a PTR - which I've been calling for for months now - and they finally decided was a good idea.
I.. apparently live in a cave.. out in the woods.. next to the drawing of a penis on the moon.
So yeah, this post is exactly how I found out about the changes. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and be cute and look at the changes and write the responses as I see them.. So here we go!!!!
Rockbiter weapon: 1 mana to 2 mana
This......is interesting. So they want to keep rockbiter as a burst card but don't want it to work well as a removal as well. I guess the idea is to make it less usable for anything. Not sure this is enough but I get the idea.
Tuskaar: Now only summons basic totems..
O M G many people called this one.. and it's happening.
I'll let the many pro players dancing in the street answer the question over whether this is a good change and just say "yeah, I feel the same."
And yes, I also feel that leaving golem and Trogg alone works. They will fit well in Wild. And it turns out 4 mana 7/7 isn't OP after all, given that many tournament decks dropped him and really he worked because too many people run no-removal tempo decks and had to deal with Tuskaar-into-Golem all the time.
CotW: from 8 mana to 9
And many people on the forums are dancing in the street. I'm glad the card's power stays as I WANT high mana cards to be powerful. And 9 mana makes it so that you can't go highmane/highmane/CotW/CotW anymore, and fits better to the stats it throws at you.
Execute: From 1 mana to 2
Execute... I got spoiled since I read the post above me warning of this but... intersting. Don't see why and don't see how this changes anything but..again don't see the problem, don't see how this makes things worse so.. ok *shrug*
Charge: From 3 mana to 1...
OMG WHAT! WHY DID YOU...
...and it's changed from 'give a friendly minion +2 attack and charge' to "give a friendly minion charge.. it can't attack heros this turn." and 1 mana
..oh...wow...... I THINK they found a way to 'gut' a card without ruining it and leaving it ruined. This is...interesting.
So basically OTK is dead. But now warriors can drop a big creature and for 1 mana turn it into a minion removal. AND warriors has another card to use as a pyromancer fuel. I'm liking this one. And i htink they could only make this now since this is effectively Fool's Bane's text.
Abusive Sergeant, from 2 attack to 1.
Fair. Basically the same mentality as Leper Gnome. Still usable for some decks but now it's not an auto-in I think
Yogg-Saron...
(I literally stopped here a second /I'm looking at the name but havn't scrolled to see the change.. So this is the big one. I'm scared to see what's happened to it. NOW I'm scrolling.. and reading the prelim text :P. )
Ok here it is:
The text stays the same, but now "Yogg-Saron will now stop casting spells if, during Yogg-Saron’s battlecry, it is destroyed, silenced, transformed," AND "In addition to the above changes, we will be addressing the bug where cards with Overload cast by Yogg-Saron, Hope’s End will not cause Overload to the player in a future update."
So basically, Yogg has to be existance and able to keep casting. If it's messed up in any way, it stops. So that legendary "PRAISE YOGG" video would've stopped casting at around 4 spells. Also it means that it's less reliable as a recovery tool since overload will mess with you.
I... don't know. Is this enough? It's not too much. But is it enough? It still means Yogg does the full effect if it lives. It DOES mean that dropping him against an empty board is basically a worthless idea since he WILL mess himself up. Thing is, I'm not sure he's nerfed enough to make hiim bad in Yogg Druid as the entire point of Yogg druid is to play him against a strong enemy board, which means the Doom he casts will still be worth it even if he doesn't do anything else.
Thus I can see him no logner really useful in non Mage/Druid, and MAYBE be enough to make Yogg Mage not reliable enough but ....I still see a heavy Yogg Druid showing for blizzcon.
And that's it.
Overall great choices for many of the changes. A few "well Ok whatever" but Yogg is interesting but may not be nough of a change.
.....
Wait I just realized something while I was just about to say silencing a battle cry makes no sense then I realized it say during his battle cry? But if I recall corrctly in hearthstone mechanics battle cry occurs before the minion hits the board so why the fuck can yogg cast spells on himself?
Well I mean the Sylvanas interaction never made much sense, either, especially in comparison with the way C'Thun works with her, and while we're at it even though post-nerf Yogg makes you pay the overload, those spells probably still won't count for your spell counter for things like Arcane Giant. Probably best to accept that consistency is not top on the list of Team 5's priorities, especially when it comes to signature cards like this one.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
This latest round of nerfs confirms what I already knew. Blizzard doesn't nerf things for balance reasons necessarily, they just listen to the community and what cards they complain about the most. Problem is most of the players are low rank people, who will always complain about some card regardless.
Instead of using a pro balance team, and analyzing data...they just listen to those who cry the most often and cry the loudest. Every single card in this set of nerfs was complained about a great deal by the salty community.
Yes there will be celebrations and cheers from the whiners, like there has been with past nerfs. Then after a short while, they will go on to make more nerf threads and cry about other cards. Blizzard is trying to satisfy a group that can't be satisfied regardless of what changes they make. I'm glad I play other card games, cause even if there are criers in all competitive games balance teams mostly ignore them and objectively balance the game.
we wont see too many yogg decks cause he is dumb as f**k. I see too many times when yogg i the only win comdition and it just shadowstep himself with first spell or just pyro himself. Now he is pretty bad, i get him pretty much times as last card and he just kills me with fatigue dmg. Like 5 times out of 10 he kills me today and like 10 times i was killed by aggro decks so i didnt get him at all
I really wonder how much time was taken testing out these changes. Adjust a few cards here and there, and it is easily possible for a whole new set of issues to arise that might not have been desired.
People will always complain about something.
People who refuses to play aggro out of principle are even worse than people who play exclusively aggro.
One should seek to become a complete player and play all archetypes, including ones that he despises for whatever irrational reasons.
I think that blizzard are now walking on the right road. I really dont care about what they nerfed, its the fact that they did it and they listened.
Good job Blizzard and I hope that you guys will continue on this path to make this game fun for everyone.
There were a lot of shaman cards complained about, they weren't going to nerf eveything. However doomhammer + rockbiter was complained about so much so they nerfed rockbiter (this is probably the worst nerf if we look at card value, blessing of the might anyone?). Tuskarr totemic has been complained about forever. So yeah thing below and faceless were also complained about, but again they aren't going to nerf every single powerful card shaman had.
It was all community feedback. Just like the druid nerfs, just like starving buzzard, killing grim patron (well that type of grim patron), etc etc. It is a terrible way to balance things. Competitive games bring competitive people. What does that mean? Competitive people hate to lose, and the weak minded of these will blame it on something else other than themselves every time regardless of what is changed. Listening to fragile, extremely biased, low skilled players like that is stupid. However it is those, even though they unlikely represent the majority, who will flood forums with countless threads and posts containing their illogical rants. Thus they are the ones blizzard hears the most, the people they should actually listen to the least.
Happiest to see Execute get nerfed from 1 to 2 mana. I feel like Shield Slam was in the same boat, and wonder if you couldn't have done it to it as well, but I'd lean conservatively to do 1 and analyze the need for another. I hope this is enough to slow down Warrior's ability to just ping these kills in without affecting their mana curve. You never want to destroy a class, but this was out of hand, and is a good first measure to address it.
Legendaries Opened: Tirion Fordring * Ysera * Dreadscale * Malorne * Cenarius * Captain Greenskin * Two fucking Nat, the Darkfisher * The Lich King * Deathwing * Hemet, Jungle Hunter * Malfurion The Pestlent (adv)
Legendaries Crafted: Deathwing, Dragonlord * Alexstrasza * Chillmaw * Kel'Thuzad
I just worry that Blizzard have now made it clear that if people complain about a card enough even if they are not part of the evergreen set then they will nerf it. Because it pretty much means that anything can be up for getting nerfed. The main problem I have with this is not the latest round of cards that have been nerfed by Blizzard, but rather there have been a lot of threads on this site asking for nerfs on cards that are good but are not game breaking such as Azure Drake. I am just concerned that this may lead to cards that are strong but not unfair also getting nerfed as a consequence.
Praise Jesus Halleujah!
Galavant Animation
Galavant Animation
Galavant Animation
>>>Check out my Latest Card Design Competition Entry<<<
When are the changes coming?
Excellent nerfs. Ever since I've started playing it has felt like the weapons classes dominate. These nerfs seem to acknowledge that, they even nerfed warrior a tiny bit, which makes me really happy.
It's amusing that rather than nerf the new cards they added that screwed things up they go after old cards as if that's somehow more acceptable. Yet another reason why we need a PTR - which I've been calling for for months now - and they finally decided was a good idea.
Well done blizzard!
No really, i am shocked they actually are nerfing these cards. All welcome honestly.