There is a problem. It is not as strong as Face Hunter or Secret Paladin but it is in standard.
I know Aggro Shaman is a HUGE problem we should not get over because it makes up 37% of the decks below rank 5. 37% that is HUGE problem. That means this deck is way, WAY unbalanced compared to the other decks in the meta.
In Standard, according to Tempo Storm.
Tier 1 There are 0 Control Decks of 5
Tier 2 There are 3 Control decks of 9 (representing only two classes)
Tier 3 There are, and I am being generous with Freeze Mage, 3 Control decks of 12
Its not that, not everyone wants to play stall-get over it, It is that you CAN NOT CURRENTLY IN HEARTHSTONE PLAY A CONTROL DECK AT TOP TIERS!
Aggro Shaman is 8-9% of the meta at any rank. Where do you get your stats, guys? At the salt mine? There are only two consistent aggro archetypes: Aggro Shaman and Zoo/Disco Warlock. The meta is midrange.
Shaman is around 25% at the moment, but it was over 30% a couple of days ago. For real time data, you can check vS Data Reaper Live
Aggro decks are the strongest thing right now and they really need to be nerfed. Shamans and hunters are the biggest offenders. Now you might say Hunter plays "midrange". Yeah no stop lying and protecting it. Its an aggro deck. If the deck can setup a board and kill with burst before turn 5 its aggro end of story. The same problem is with shaman. Now you might say. Well all archetypes need to be viable. This is true and the one archetype that isnt viable right now? Oh yeah thats control! Control decks right now are just so clunky and awkward because we have weak taunts to work with. Heals that eat most of our mana and leave no board presence. Board clears that cost a lot of mana and might not even clear the board. Aggro honestly feels like its suffocating part of the game. I love playing all types of decks combo/control/midrange/tempo. But not aggro because its braindead and gives no choice.
The big issue with aggro is the minions are to effective with abilites and synergies. Also the spells for these classes are way too flexible. 1 mana deal 3 damage? That is insane early game. That kills nearly every 1-3 drop in the game. Plus it allows for a totem golem 3/4 worth of stats. How is that fair to face on turn 3? Its not and there is no coming back from it. Or how about tuskarr totemic that spawns a flametongue or totem golem. You instantly lose right then and there. Thats not fun and the game shouldnt be designed like this. For every strong aggro card there should be a strong removal or taunt card. Or increase the amount of health that every player gets by 20. That way aggro is completely unviable. That would be good too.
FWIW - Vicious Syndicate posted a report about a month ago. The game is currently slower than it ever has been, and (real) aggro decks are about a full turn slower than they were prior to the rotation. Over one-third of the decks on ladder are designed to play until turn ten or later, and more classes have the ability to play late-game decks than any time since the game launched - that's why average game length is just short of ten full turns. Both VS and Hearthstats publish data every day - for the past eight months, there has been a single aggro deck with a positive win-rate, and it currently has a play-rate of about 8%. The rest of the ladder is composed of decks that aren't aggro decks with positive win-rates. A lot of people don't care - any midrange, tempo or aggro-control deck is "really" just an aggro deck, as they can all potentially win prior to the late-game. It isn't exactly a helpful way to understand the game, but again, a lot of people don't care.
I think many are cynical about the aggro-midrange distinction because at first the difference in "midrange" hunter was to just throw in a Savannah Highmane. besides that they *were* basically the same deck.
So the difference is between hyper aggression and aggression, and maybe one wins a turn or two earlier than the other. Not really a substantial difference IMO.
There is a problem. It is not as strong as Face Hunter or Secret Paladin but it is in standard.
I know Aggro Shaman is a HUGE problem we should not get over because it makes up 37% of the decks below rank 5. 37% that is HUGE problem. That means this deck is way, WAY unbalanced compared to the other decks in the meta.
In Standard, according to Tempo Storm.
Tier 1 There are 0 Control Decks of 5
Tier 2 There are 3 Control decks of 9 (representing only two classes)
Tier 3 There are, and I am being generous with Freeze Mage, 3 Control decks of 12
Its not that, not everyone wants to play stall-get over it, It is that you CAN NOT CURRENTLY IN HEARTHSTONE PLAY A CONTROL DECK AT TOP TIERS!
Aggro Shaman is 8-9% of the meta at any rank. Where do you get your stats, guys? At the salt mine? There are only two consistent aggro archetypes: Aggro Shaman and Zoo/Disco Warlock. The meta is midrange.
Shaman is around 25% at the moment, but it was over 30% a couple of days ago. For real time data, you can check vS Data Reaper Live
Shaman =/= Aggro Shaman. There is a very popular midrange Shaman deck, a somewhat played Evolve deck and a rarely encountered but still going control deck. The actual Aggro Shaman hovers around 8-12 % from one week to another, which is insanely high for a single archetype, but nowhere near 30%.
On the general topic - the best deck in terms of winrate might be aggro, but most of the tier one and two decks are actually midrange decks, which prey on control strategies. (Aggro Shaman beats Midrange Hunter beats C'thun Warrior beats Aggro Shaman, in short). It is not aggro decks that prevent control from beong played - it is high value midrange decks.
A Hunter deck that manages to curve out perfectly, facing someone who doesn't get any removal maybe. And even then it's a stretch. But I have had it happen to me before.
Yeah, if they somehow manage to play nothing those first few turns you have a good chance of killing them turn 5. The damage really starts adding up even when the minions are all so small.
Aggro Shaman is 8-9% of the meta at any rank. Where do you get your stats, guys? At the salt mine? There are only two consistent aggro archetypes: Aggro Shaman and Zoo/Disco Warlock. The meta is midrange.
And those experts who keep telling us that most decks are "midrange". Yeah, sure, we put in a few 6 to 8 mana card into every deck and call it midrange because it has a higher mana curve now. Zoolock for example is totally midrange because they play Sea Giants (who cares about 10 one drops). Makes total sense!
To be Honest if Expensive 7+mana cards had the same power level of the low costed cards then there wouldn't be any problem of control vs Aggro but as long as aggro keeps getting Tunnel Trogg, Flamewreathed Faceless, Tuskarr TotemicMaelstrom Portal and the such while contro gets Avian Watcher and the such then the game is heavily favoring aggro,and much as people hate Yogg-Saron hope's end those are the types of expensive cards control needs, and i don't mean rng-wise, i mean expenive cards, with an amazing ability to instantly turn games in your favor as long as you could survive to that turn, that's kind of the reason why i findN'zoth the corruptor to be so bad and gimmicky in non-paladin classes, because if i'm not bringing Tirion Fordring back from the death, i play n'zoth and just die the following turn.
Aggro Shaman is 8-9% of the meta at any rank. Where do you get your stats, guys? At the salt mine? There are only two consistent aggro archetypes: Aggro Shaman and Zoo/Disco Warlock. The meta is midrange.
And those experts who keep telling us that most decks are "midrange". Yeah, sure, we put in a few 6 to 8 mana card into every deck and call it midrange because it has a higher mana curve now. Zoolock for example is totally midrange because they play Sea Giants (who cares about 10 one drops). Makes total sense!
Have you ever heard about midrange and control Shamans? Go check weekly reports. Every single week amount of Aggro Shaman wasn't even close to 29%. 31.08-6.09 - 8%. 24.08-30.08 - 11%. 17.08-23.08 - 9%. 10.08-17.08 - 7%. Last 24 hours is less informative than last month for obvious reasons. Yes, midrange decks are flexible and play control against aggro and aggro against control, so if you play only control decks of course you don't know what's the difference. Zoolock was a midrange deck and may shift to midrange again later, but you will never notice, because for you every not anti-tempo deck is aggro.
Have you ever heard about midrange and control Shamans? Go check weekly reports. Every single week amount of Aggro Shaman wasn't even close to 29%. 31.08-6.09 - 8%. 24.08-30.08 - 11%. 17.08-23.08 - 9%. 10.08-17.08 - 7%. Last 24 hours is less informative than last month for obvious reasons. Yes, midrange decks are flexible and play control against aggro and aggro against control, so if you play only control decks of course you don't know what's the difference. Zoolock was a midrange deck and may shift to midrange again later, but you will never notice, because for you every not anti-tempo deck is aggro.
Oh yeah, midrange shaman … that is the deck with 2 x 5 drops and 2 x 6 drops that are mostly played for 0 mana. Totally midrange, especially with the 1 mana fiery war axe (with 3 charges, because shaman) that hit you in the face for 9 damage. And control shaman and gimmick shaman are tier 3 or 4. Nobody plays that on higher ranks.
Is it so hard to believe/accept that it's not Aggro decks that dominate nowadays? Yes, it's actually Aggro-Midrange hybrids that dominate. Decks that don't need to kill you before Turn 6 to win, but which are capable of doing so if they draw perfectly. If not, they have enough reach to survive past Turn 10 (but not TOO far, they all run out of gas eventually).
This is why you think Control gets slaughtered. Aggro doesn't beat Control, Midrange does. Thus, a hybrid between the two can also do it.
Have you ever heard about midrange and control Shamans? Go check weekly reports. Every single week amount of Aggro Shaman wasn't even close to 29%. 31.08-6.09 - 8%. 24.08-30.08 - 11%. 17.08-23.08 - 9%. 10.08-17.08 - 7%. Last 24 hours is less informative than last month for obvious reasons. Yes, midrange decks are flexible and play control against aggro and aggro against control, so if you play only control decks of course you don't know what's the difference. Zoolock was a midrange deck and may shift to midrange again later, but you will never notice, because for you every not anti-tempo deck is aggro.
Oh yeah, midrange shaman … that is the deck with 2 x 5 drops and 2 x 6 drops that are mostly played for 0 mana. Totally midrange, especially with the 1 mana fiery war axe (with 3 charges, because shaman) that hit you in the face for 9 damage. And control shaman and gimmick shaman are tier 3 or 4. Nobody plays that on higher ranks.
I agree that midrange hunter is nothing more than a aggro/face deck. Why even call it midrange? Because of the mana curve? Of course it's going to auto-include broken cards like highmane and CotW. Why would it not? The fact is they just face rush you without regards to the board. They even use burn, like kill command, on your face most of the time instead of actually clearing a minion.
Yeah, I did but what you consider midrange is not midrange. The game of midrange and aggro shaman is exaclty the same: Tunnel Trog, Totem Golem, Tuskar, 4 mana 7/7, play a few totems, drop their 0 mana 5/5 taunt and ignore the board and hit you in the face all the time. Aggro Shaman moves to Doomhammer while the new (so called) "midrange shaman" hits you from turn 1 with their new weapon. if you don't have the right answer in hand every turn you are dead on turn 8 and it does not matter if you play an aggressive deck or a control deck.
Yeah, I did but what you consider midrange is not midrange. The game of midrange and aggro shaman is exaclty the same: Tunnel Trog, Totem Golem, Tuskar, 4 mana 7/7, play a few totems, drop their 0 mana 5/5 taunt and ignore the board and hit you in the face all the time. Aggro Shaman moves to Doomhammer while the new (so called) "midrange shaman" hits you from turn 1 with their new weapon. if you don't have the right answer in hand every turn you are dead on turn 8 and it does not matter if you play an aggressive deck or a control deck.
If controlgreedy player doesn't play anything worth trading, than obviously the midrange player should go face. To do otherwise is stupid. Heck, even another control player would go face against such a deck.
What I find really sad is that despite the meta being slower than ever (backed by real, actual data from lots of people), more people are whining about aggro.
Aggro decks are the strongest thing right now and they really need to be nerfed. Shamans and hunters are the biggest offenders. Now you might say Hunter plays "midrange". Yeah no stop lying and protecting it. Its an aggro deck. If the deck can setup a board and kill with burst before turn 5 its aggro end of story.
The big issue with aggro is the minions are to effective with abilites and synergies. Also the spells for these classes are way too flexible. 1 mana deal 3 damage?
Aggro is an issue not because it has tempo, but because they also have value. Tempo = head-start, value = speed. If control can't out-value aggro, they can't catch up, and Aggro will win. Flexibility is nice, but when you're ahead, you shouldn't be playing a reactive game...
...Also, I've gotten turn 5 lethal with a N'Zoth pally deck. I really don't think that makes it aggro.
Yeah, this is the truth. Even ramp druids can't outvalue *face* shamans these days, it's getting ridiculous.
When a face deck drops minions on t1-t4 that are tough enough to be immune to all early game AoE and most lategame AoE , can dump 22 worth of stats on T6 while doing 13 dmg from hand, something is wrong.
An aggro face deck should look like old facehunter... annoying as heck? Yeah sure. Damage? Insane. Value? Near nil. Lastability? None. You drop reno against a face deck and it should be GG, the aggro decks we see in standard just rofl-stomp additional 30 dmg without breaking a sweat.
Take a card like consecration, that should be a *good* card against face decks, today it is utterly and completely useless. The answers to these decks are so lacking that in half the games recovering is an impossibility.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the game is currently broken in standard.
Yeah, I did but what you consider midrange is not midrange. The game of midrange and aggro shaman is exaclty the same: Tunnel Trog, Totem Golem, Tuskar, 4 mana 7/7, play a few totems, drop their 0 mana 5/5 taunt and ignore the board and hit you in the face all the time. Aggro Shaman moves to Doomhammer while the new (so called) "midrange shaman" hits you from turn 1 with their new weapon. if you don't have the right answer in hand every turn you are dead on turn 8 and it does not matter if you play an aggressive deck or a control deck.
If controlgreedy player doesn't play anything worth trading, than obviously the midrange player should go face. To do otherwise is stupid. Heck, even another control player would go face against such a deck.
What I find really sad is that despite the meta being slower than ever (backed by real, actual data from lots of people), more people are whining about aggro.
Well when people play against the same aggro shaman, face hunter, etc decks with the same predictable plays, turn after turn after turn, can you really blame them for being salty?
Also, what exactly does the meta being "slow" mean right now? That aggro decks just kill you on turn 6 instead of 5? I'm confused. I rarely, if ever, face control on ladder so I wonder how on earth the meta can be considered slow with such a lack of control decks.
I think many are cynical about the aggro-midrange distinction because at first the difference in "midrange" hunter was to just throw in a Savannah Highmane. besides that they *were* basically the same deck.
So the difference is between hyper aggression and aggression, and maybe one wins a turn or two earlier than the other. Not really a substantial difference IMO.
Your statement isn't really anything new, people haven't been fond of aggro decks since the dawn of hearthstone.
RIP yogg-saron good things don't last forever :(
The old Face Hunter deck from last year?
Aggro is not the problem for me. Yogg is. Aggro will lose when they lose the board but midrange is a different story sometimes.
To be Honest if Expensive 7+mana cards had the same power level of the low costed cards then there wouldn't be any problem of control vs Aggro but as long as aggro keeps getting Tunnel Trogg, Flamewreathed Faceless, Tuskarr Totemic Maelstrom Portal and the such while contro gets Avian Watcher and the such then the game is heavily favoring aggro,and much as people hate Yogg-Saron hope's end those are the types of expensive cards control needs, and i don't mean rng-wise, i mean expenive cards, with an amazing ability to instantly turn games in your favor as long as you could survive to that turn, that's kind of the reason why i findN'zoth the corruptor to be so bad and gimmicky in non-paladin classes, because if i'm not bringing Tirion Fordring back from the death, i play n'zoth and just die the following turn.
Have you ever heard about midrange and control Shamans? Go check weekly reports. Every single week amount of Aggro Shaman wasn't even close to 29%. 31.08-6.09 - 8%. 24.08-30.08 - 11%. 17.08-23.08 - 9%. 10.08-17.08 - 7%. Last 24 hours is less informative than last month for obvious reasons. Yes, midrange decks are flexible and play control against aggro and aggro against control, so if you play only control decks of course you don't know what's the difference. Zoolock was a midrange deck and may shift to midrange again later, but you will never notice, because for you every not anti-tempo deck is aggro.
English is not my native language, so, with a high probability, mistakes were made.
I swear that this website only has threads of people complaining now and days.
Is it so hard to believe/accept that it's not Aggro decks that dominate nowadays? Yes, it's actually Aggro-Midrange hybrids that dominate. Decks that don't need to kill you before Turn 6 to win, but which are capable of doing so if they draw perfectly. If not, they have enough reach to survive past Turn 10 (but not TOO far, they all run out of gas eventually).
This is why you think Control gets slaughtered. Aggro doesn't beat Control, Midrange does. Thus, a hybrid between the two can also do it.
I agree that midrange hunter is nothing more than a aggro/face deck. Why even call it midrange? Because of the mana curve? Of course it's going to auto-include broken cards like highmane and CotW. Why would it not? The fact is they just face rush you without regards to the board. They even use burn, like kill command, on your face most of the time instead of actually clearing a minion.
controlgreedy player doesn't play anything worth trading, than obviously the midrange player should go face. To do otherwise is stupid. Heck, even another control player would go face against such a deck.People who refuses to play aggro out of principle are even worse than people who play exclusively aggro.
One should seek to become a complete player and play all archetypes, including ones that he despises for whatever irrational reasons.
Yeah, this is the truth. Even ramp druids can't outvalue *face* shamans these days, it's getting ridiculous.
When a face deck drops minions on t1-t4 that are tough enough to be immune to all early game AoE and most lategame AoE , can dump 22 worth of stats on T6 while doing 13 dmg from hand, something is wrong.
An aggro face deck should look like old facehunter... annoying as heck? Yeah sure. Damage? Insane. Value? Near nil. Lastability? None. You drop reno against a face deck and it should be GG, the aggro decks we see in standard just rofl-stomp additional 30 dmg without breaking a sweat.
Take a card like consecration, that should be a *good* card against face decks, today it is utterly and completely useless. The answers to these decks are so lacking that in half the games recovering is an impossibility.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the game is currently broken in standard.