So i just wanted to express my POV of what i think of the meta so far.
things I Like:
1: Im happy that cards like Cairne Bloodhoof is seeing play again because of N'Zoth.
2. Control paladin is ACTUALLY a good deck. I love play control, but Control paladin before with all of the Deathrattles of Nax and GvG made it impossible to clear the board, but now there arent that many sticky boards.
3. alot more deck ideas: I think the ideas of decklists are endless and i think a meta is healthy when thats the case.
4. I dont have to play around Combo: the great feeling of playing against Druid and not having the fear of losing to FON + Roar is a refreshing Feeling.
What i dont like so far:
1: Cthun decks seem to Auto-pilot: At first i thought it would be a cool idea to play Cthun in a deck, but i feel like its like playing against Combo where if you are below the attack of Cthun, you either lose the game or you lose your board and have to deal with Cthun himself. I think its way too easy for Cthun decks to the midranged deck in the format. oh and this is AFTER they nerfed BGH.
2. Shaman's power level is far too much: I think Blizzard went overboard with the cards they gave shaman, by turn 4 you should be facing a 5/5 with taunt and a 4 mana 7/7. the fact Evolve is dumb in itself which makes kill their board a must.
3.not enough removal: So with GvG and nax gone, so it alot good removal. the thing that made the removal not overpowered was the fact that ALOT of minions from those sets didnt Actually Die without leaving something beyond. Whispers of the old god didnt give us good enough removal, the best removal spell in the Set is Shadow Strike
So thats my POV on just those topics, let me know what you think :D
Evolve should cost 1 mana per friendly minion or something, instead of 1 mana IMO. 4 mana 7/7... dont they know Overload is basically InstaRamp but you dont have to draw the ramp cards, considering you get to clear all your overload with a 2 mana card AND do 2 dmg... FML
C'Thun was intentionally designed to be a strong tempo-based deck for newbies. It gives them a fighting chance against decks that have more interesting combos and synergies.
Over time, I expect people (and their decks) will get better at dealing with this archetype.
As for Shaman, try playing it for a while, and you'll see a few different ways it can lose in spite of its huge early minions.
And remember, BGH was nerfed, not removed from the game. It still exists, and it's still a powerful removal option. Ignore it at your peril.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I agree with your likes: Control pally is really good and there's of new stuff to explore and old cards to try again with the new meta. That's most fun part I think.
As far as your dislikes:
1. I agree that C'thun decks are pretty meh overall. Personally I think it's because you have to play a bunch of vanilla minions and a lot of neutrals in the decks. You end up where the class almost doesn't matter. Yeah, druid has taunts and warrior has armor, but they have that anyway. The games quickly devolve into who can draw C'Thun and win. All card games have rng, but when you literally both have a "you win" card in your deck, it's not very interesting.
2. Shaman is definately powerful. The BGH nerf makes flamewreathed faceless alot more frustrating. You can't answer an on curve 7/7 unless you still have coin going second. I don't think blizzard is going to do anything about shaman power level though. So I would get used to several months of losing to doomhammer + rockbiter. The new zoo is nearly as powerful though, if any card would get nerfed I actually think it would sea giant not the 7/7.
3. I think the BGH nerf is big part of this. It's hard to run BGH now, because it's a big tempo loss if you don't have a target, but then when you matchup with shaman and zoo, it's hard to have answers to the turn 4 or turn 5 7/7's and 8/8's. Basically if GvG had a 5 mana BGH everyone would be hating on all of the Fel Reaver decks and how OP they were. It's BGH that kept that in check. I think a 4 mana BGH is better for hearthstone, personally. It means you lose less tempo and you can respond on curve to giants or the flamewreathed or even fel reaver if you're playing wild.
1. As others have said, C'thun is supposed to be rather dull and easy to use because it's a new player's deck. Now they have something other than face decks to get started on. For folks like us who already have strong collections and a lot of game-time on our belts, C'thun isn't realyl that much for us. We have 3 other Gods to play with, and other decks outside of them.
Also Warrior has a pretty big gap in their armoring thanks to armorsmith going away. I'm suspecting they will adopt C'thun, using the God himself like they used Grom, as just an interesting big boy+removal tool, and mostly just taking in the powerful 7 mana taunt, +20 armor, and 3 mana 2-damage removal tool.
2. I actually think if they hit anything it'll be the 7/7. However, it IS rather early, and it's FAR from the last time we've dealt with a Shaman deck with a MASSIVE big boy sent off early. We can handle the 7/7 for 4 like we handled the 8/8 for 5, and it wasn't alwasy with BGH. We just have to start actually using removal tools, which are still very much lacking in a lot of decks right now.
3. I don't think reviving BGH is the key to 'restoring the balance'. Then we'd be back to having every 7 attack creature be a Dr. Boom to ever have a chance in the world. Old Gods exists as it is BECAUSE BGH isn't an autoinclude.
Also most classes have a way of dealing with a Big Boy. Warriors have execute, priests with Death, Hunters have Mark, Shaman's Hex, Mages have Polymorph, Rogues have Sap, Druid's have Mulch, Paladins Peacekeeper/Uldi. Only warlocks have nothing immediate and they can either drop their own, cheaper giant or PO+a few minions to overwhelm it anyway.
Many of those tools haven't seen play because we've been too busy pushing for tempo and relied on BGH instead. Time to get back to that.
1. As others have said, C'thun is supposed to be rather dull and easy to use because it's a new player's deck. Now they have something other than face decks to get started on. For folks like us who already have strong collections and a lot of game-time on our belts, C'thun isn't realyl that much for us. We have 3 other Gods to play with, and other decks outside of them.
Also Warrior has a pretty big gap in their armoring thanks to armorsmith going away. I'm suspecting they will adopt C'thun, using the God himself like they used Grom, as just an interesting big boy+removal tool, and mostly just taking in the powerful 7 mana taunt, +20 armor, and 3 mana 2-damage removal tool.
2. I actually think if they hit anything it'll be the 7/7. However, it IS rather early, and it's FAR from the last time we've dealt with a Shaman deck with a MASSIVE big boy sent off early. We can handle the 7/7 for 4 like we handled the 8/8 for 5, and it wasn't alwasy with BGH. We just have to start actually using removal tools, which are still very much lacking in a lot of decks right now.
3. I don't think reviving BGH is the key to 'restoring the balance'. Then we'd be back to having every 7 attack creature be a Dr. Boom to ever have a chance in the world. Old Gods exists as it is BECAUSE BGH isn't an autoinclude.
Also most classes have a way of dealing with a Big Boy. Warriors have execute, priests with Death, Hunters have Mark, Shaman's Hex, Mages have Polymorph, Rogues have Sap, Druid's have Mulch, Paladins Peacekeeper/Uldi. Only warlocks have nothing immediate and they can either drop their own, cheaper giant or PO+a few minions to overwhelm it anyway.
Many of those tools haven't seen play because we've been too busy pushing for tempo and relied on BGH instead. Time to get back to that.
These are good points. We don't necessarily have to go back to relying on BGH, but most of the answers you mention are tempo losses against a deck that's probably already ahead when they play the 7/7.
Hunter's Mark and Execute requires an activator which can be tough against shaman which has a good curve and usually is ahead turns 1-3 and using two cards to kill the 7/7 doesn't feel good either. You can gain tempo with these cards if you have the right combo pieces in hand though.
Death and Mulch are okay, they are the most reliable options in the current meta, but if your opponent was ahead they're still ahead.
Hex is reasonable, but they still have a minion that can be Flametongued so the opponent doesn't lose as much as you would like for your best removal option.
Polymorph is worse than Hex cause the token can fight without the flametongue
Peacekeeper is good as long as they don't follow up with earthshock. This is probably my favorite option, because the 3/3 body of the aldor is good against the other shaman minions, but the earthshock can be back breaking.
Keeper is basically neutral, but if you're opponent was ahead they're still ahead and they usually can get in a least 3 damage with reduced stats.
Sap is a great answer on curve, but weak turns 6 - 10 where they can replay the minion and still make other plays.
Overall, I think the problem with the 7/7 is more the fact that it can be played on curve in a deck where you're already ahead because of the shaman early game cards. If the 7/7 was the first minion that shaman was playing like old school handlock, then the answers would feel a lot better. A tempo neutral answer to mountain giant on turn 4 is not terrible. You give your opponent the initiative but they have to have plays that they can make with that initiative. Against shaman, they may have 3 minions and 6 damage on the table and in that situation tempo neutral plays are losing plays because your opponent already has initiative.
So i just wanted to express my POV of what i think of the meta so far.
things I Like:
1: Im happy that cards like Cairne Bloodhoof is seeing play again because of N'Zoth.
2. Control paladin is ACTUALLY a good deck. I love play control, but Control paladin before with all of the Deathrattles of Nax and GvG made it impossible to clear the board, but now there arent that many sticky boards.
3. alot more deck ideas: I think the ideas of decklists are endless and i think a meta is healthy when thats the case.
4. I dont have to play around Combo: the great feeling of playing against Druid and not having the fear of losing to FON + Roar is a refreshing Feeling.
What i dont like so far:
1: Cthun decks seem to Auto-pilot: At first i thought it would be a cool idea to play Cthun in a deck, but i feel like its like playing against Combo where if you are below the attack of Cthun, you either lose the game or you lose your board and have to deal with Cthun himself. I think its way too easy for Cthun decks to the midranged deck in the format. oh and this is AFTER they nerfed BGH.
2. Shaman's power level is far too much: I think Blizzard went overboard with the cards they gave shaman, by turn 4 you should be facing a 5/5 with taunt and a 4 mana 7/7. the fact Evolve is dumb in itself which makes kill their board a must.
3.not enough removal: So with GvG and nax gone, so it alot good removal. the thing that made the removal not overpowered was the fact that ALOT of minions from those sets didnt Actually Die without leaving something beyond. Whispers of the old god didnt give us good enough removal, the best removal spell in the Set is Shadow Strike
So thats my POV on just those topics, let me know what you think :D
Hearthstone is a game of "copy and pasting"
Cons #2 & #3.....this for days, feelsbadman.
Evolve should cost 1 mana per friendly minion or something, instead of 1 mana IMO. 4 mana 7/7... dont they know Overload is basically InstaRamp but you dont have to draw the ramp cards, considering you get to clear all your overload with a 2 mana card AND do 2 dmg... FML
/end salt
PS: Glad to have Cairne back too!
C'Thun was intentionally designed to be a strong tempo-based deck for newbies. It gives them a fighting chance against decks that have more interesting combos and synergies.
Over time, I expect people (and their decks) will get better at dealing with this archetype.
As for Shaman, try playing it for a while, and you'll see a few different ways it can lose in spite of its huge early minions.
And remember, BGH was nerfed, not removed from the game. It still exists, and it's still a powerful removal option. Ignore it at your peril.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I agree with your likes: Control pally is really good and there's of new stuff to explore and old cards to try again with the new meta. That's most fun part I think.
As far as your dislikes:
1. I agree that C'thun decks are pretty meh overall. Personally I think it's because you have to play a bunch of vanilla minions and a lot of neutrals in the decks. You end up where the class almost doesn't matter. Yeah, druid has taunts and warrior has armor, but they have that anyway. The games quickly devolve into who can draw C'Thun and win. All card games have rng, but when you literally both have a "you win" card in your deck, it's not very interesting.
2. Shaman is definately powerful. The BGH nerf makes flamewreathed faceless alot more frustrating. You can't answer an on curve 7/7 unless you still have coin going second. I don't think blizzard is going to do anything about shaman power level though. So I would get used to several months of losing to doomhammer + rockbiter. The new zoo is nearly as powerful though, if any card would get nerfed I actually think it would sea giant not the 7/7.
3. I think the BGH nerf is big part of this. It's hard to run BGH now, because it's a big tempo loss if you don't have a target, but then when you matchup with shaman and zoo, it's hard to have answers to the turn 4 or turn 5 7/7's and 8/8's. Basically if GvG had a 5 mana BGH everyone would be hating on all of the Fel Reaver decks and how OP they were. It's BGH that kept that in check. I think a 4 mana BGH is better for hearthstone, personally. It means you lose less tempo and you can respond on curve to giants or the flamewreathed or even fel reaver if you're playing wild.
1. As others have said, C'thun is supposed to be rather dull and easy to use because it's a new player's deck. Now they have something other than face decks to get started on. For folks like us who already have strong collections and a lot of game-time on our belts, C'thun isn't realyl that much for us. We have 3 other Gods to play with, and other decks outside of them.
Also Warrior has a pretty big gap in their armoring thanks to armorsmith going away. I'm suspecting they will adopt C'thun, using the God himself like they used Grom, as just an interesting big boy+removal tool, and mostly just taking in the powerful 7 mana taunt, +20 armor, and 3 mana 2-damage removal tool.
2. I actually think if they hit anything it'll be the 7/7. However, it IS rather early, and it's FAR from the last time we've dealt with a Shaman deck with a MASSIVE big boy sent off early. We can handle the 7/7 for 4 like we handled the 8/8 for 5, and it wasn't alwasy with BGH. We just have to start actually using removal tools, which are still very much lacking in a lot of decks right now.
3. I don't think reviving BGH is the key to 'restoring the balance'. Then we'd be back to having every 7 attack creature be a Dr. Boom to ever have a chance in the world. Old Gods exists as it is BECAUSE BGH isn't an autoinclude.
Also most classes have a way of dealing with a Big Boy. Warriors have execute, priests with Death, Hunters have Mark, Shaman's Hex, Mages have Polymorph, Rogues have Sap, Druid's have Mulch, Paladins Peacekeeper/Uldi. Only warlocks have nothing immediate and they can either drop their own, cheaper giant or PO+a few minions to overwhelm it anyway.
Many of those tools haven't seen play because we've been too busy pushing for tempo and relied on BGH instead. Time to get back to that.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
I think you should give Evolve Shaman a try (to see how hard it is and how much it sucks) before bashing it.
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im not bashing Evolve as a mechanic, im saying Shaman as a Whole is the best midranged deck by a mile.
Hearthstone is a game of "copy and pasting"
C'Thun is needed to give mid-range ANYTHING to play. There is not a single other mid-range card apart from Sylvannas.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland