I don't feel like Hearthsone is any simpler than the blocks (Odyssey, Onslaught, Mirrodin) that I played MTG. I mainly played draft, and some standard as well. While the base of MTG is more Complex , especially with resolving abilities on the stack, the game itself has a very low RNG factor compared to HearthStone. That makes the plays themselves much more simple because you are for the most part responding to possible actions from your opponent. When you play things, you can use your judgement to take a calculated guess as to how your opponent will react.
Hearthstone has a ridiculous amount of depth because of trying to calculate for chances of RNG cards. RNG is significantly more complex to calculate around than the cards in MTG (at least at the time I played) because there are so many possibilities. Pretty sure this was purposely done to make a ridiculously high skill cap, while keeping the skill required to start playing very low.
RNG has 0 skill - you have 2 choices: 1) Get Lucky and 2) Not Get Lucky. RNG actually punishes the skill cap because it doesn't matter how good of a player you are, if you get No. 2 above, you will lose regardless of not making mistakes and playing the best option possible. That is why HS is just a grind rewarding game and not a skill rewarding game.
Case in point: if I'm the best player in the world, you're terrible, I'm playing a deck that relies on spells, and we trade Shredders, I get Cho and you get Millhouse, I'm screwed. Not really a whole lot to do there.
There was a match a long time ago (I want to say it was Thijs vs Dog... But it was quite awhile ago and I've slept since then) which was I believe Oil Rogue vs pre-nerf Patron. Shredder pops, Cho comes out, and then what progressed was actually a very interesting set of decisions which I think highlighted exactly why RNG isn't a 0-skill portion of the game. The Oil Rogue ultimately won the game on the back of leveraging the Cho-induced stalemate for spells.
I think people vastly underestimate how much they actually have control of in this game, even with things like Shredder. Being a card game there's obviously variance that can massively swing games (drawing all your late game vs Aggro is no fun), but the separation between skill levels for players really boils down to more often than not high level players will be the ones that can analyze the board state and their outs and play the line that's most likely to succeed.
Hearthstone having more/less skill required than MTG is debatable, I think the difference in gameplay between the two creates different skill sets you have to develop to really be a top player. Blaming RNG entirely for your success or lack thereof instead of acknowledging your choices were impactful makes sense in the context of the lottery or a slot machine, but in a game composed of multiple phases where you make decisions how to proceed I think it's an incorrect stance to be taking that stunts your growth as a player.
When we get Standard and a lot of these very game-defining random effects (Portal, Shredder, Imp-losion, etc.) are rotated out I'm curious what excuses people are going to have left for not accepting that maybe they just need to refine their approach to the game.
Exactly my point. You don't play with the plan that Cho will enter the field and you have to adapt from that point on.
Also, those are 2 of the 5 (Freeze Mage, Mill Rogue and Handlock) highest skill capped decks in HS. And they nerfed Patron because a player with actual skill would not be as punished by RNG as most other decks are. It was nerfed in order to "dumb" it down and make the field leveled.
Look at the, arguably, most played decks recently: Secret Pally, Zoo Lock, Combo Druid. Only the Zoo Lock deck rewards players to actually apply some skill (Instead of just vomiting your hand with whatever you can play on that turn - which is not the correct way to play Zoo at all).
To add: There is one (1) interrupt in HS: Counterspell, that is it. In MtG there are so many instant and flashes that you get punished heavily for not having a plan to counter them.
I don't even know how someone can really compare the skill needed for MtG vs HS; You have to be a MtG hater to even consider HS to stand next to MtG in regards to skill cap.
I'm not saying there is absolutely no skill in HS, but the game is severely more lenient to bad players.
I mean in the back of your mind you should realize Cho is an outcome and decide if in the even he comes out that it could interfere with your line of play (similar to not playing minions before popping it if you can't handle a Doomsayer). This pretty much also reinforces my point that the skill involved actually increases when there are cards like Shredder containing a defined subset of outcomes and you have to account for them in your lines of play.
I won't disagree that some of the top tier decks are currently lower skill floors/caps, but I don't think viability and difficulty have to necessarily always be related to one another. Even then Secret Paladin and Combo Druid (shockingly) do reward excellent lines of play, even if you take into account the fact they're also very forgiving; the gap between decent pilots and amazing pilots for those decks is a small one, but there is still room for decision making that can be impactful.
I think what you're considering leniency to bad players isn't any indication of skill gap, moreso just that HS has a lower skill floor to pick up and learn. Stancifka, someone who I don't believe harbors any ill-will towards MTG, actually considers the depth of gameplay for HS to be above MTG. He's honestly one of the smartest players in the game with a very solid track record in MTG and he views HS as a more complex game overall due to the amount of decisions compounded into high level play. Granted he was much newer at the game when that was stated (I believe prior to his win at Dreamhack), but I don't see any reason to not believe him since he's done well at a professional level in both games and knows what kind of work was required to get to that skill level.
There are a number of professionals who claim otherwise as well. I think the complexities at very high levels of play of both games can't really be compared evenly. They are different. MtG is always a more controlled enviornment. This makes things like deck manipulation, the stack and graveyard manipulation things that don't even exist in Hearthstone but absolutely need to be managed and at the highest levels of play great attention are given to these things.
Conversely Heathstones RNG, a factor that is mostly minimized in MTG creates a HUGE number of potential outcomes that players have to be ready for. The highest level players in Hearthstone weight the RNG element, when it's best to take advantage of it and roll the dice and then how to mitigate or take advantage of the outcome. It's far from easy.
The complexities are simply different and someone who is used to the more controlled environment of MtG might find the RNG factor harder to account for and find the myriad of possible outcomes more difficult to deal with. Meanwhile a Hearthstone player might find the sheer number of things to keep track of in magic daunting and the stack unwieldy or confusing.
It's difficult to say which is more complex because what some might find a "complex" scenario another might feel more comfortable with. As a long time player of MtG and as long a player of Hearthstone as one can be I find MtG to be more complex. Not to say that Hearthstone takes less skill, not at all, just that MtG has more than 20 years of cards, keywords and complex interactions between their vast library to keep track of. Even now when I attend tournaments players need rule clarification.
I think MtG is more complex, but the level of skill needed to play either game is at the highest levels is the same.
First, i highly doubt that everyone who claims that MgT is more complicated than Hearthstone has really played both games. I just can't believe that about 90% of the hearthstone players played this super expensive game. I played it (and spent most of my pocket money into it about 15 years ago) but most of my friends didn't. Most of those friends are now playing Hearthstone -> it is unrealistic that all those people who claim to know MgT, really know it. I think a lot of them just like to be part of the "cool kids"..
That said, the rules of MgT are way more complicated than Hearthstone. I am not just talking about the nearly endless amount of different mechanics but about the game itself. Even if both players only play with no card text minions and simple spells it stays more complicated than HS. You can interact with the board during your enemies turn with spells or through defending with your minions, you have to keep track of tapping etc. You even get punished if you tap to many land-cards without spending it's mana..
So there is really no doubt about it that HS is way simpler than MgT if you look at the rules of the game but a harder learning-curve doesn't make the gameplay more or less complex. The fact that you can't interact with your enemy if it is not your turn doesn't make the game simpler, it is just different. The fact that you don't put land (mana) cards into your deck also doesn't make the game simpler. (but of course the deck building is easier) The RNG makes Hearthstone gameplay in some cases even more complex than MgT. I know the hordes of RNG-haters would deny this because good/bad RNG can decide a game by itself BUT if you know to use your RNG to your advantage you will win way more games than bad players. In a game like MgT you don't need to adapt to changing situations as much and you don't have to think about risk-reward moves in the same way. I am not trying to say that MgT gameplay is simpler than HS but it is just different.
The huge community which tells you how to build and play nearly all decks is another a thing which makes HS a bit simpler..
To summarize: Hearthstone is way more simple in it's mechanics and learning curce(which may be a good thing) Hearthstone is way more simple in deckbuidling (because of the huge community + the lack of mana cards + the lack of endless mechanics) Hearthstone is as difficult as a game like MgT in it's tactical decissions. (But in MgT you won't find as many guides and how to-play videos for certain decks)
NOT "MgT"... i probably should have just stopped reading after seeing you call it "MgT" over and over. for somebody that has played for 15 years, you cant even call it the correct name? wowwww.
There are a crapton of guides and how to play videos for magic, what in the world are you talking about? Hearthstone is as difficult as magic? lol kk. You could do better at pretending you played MTG.
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I think blizzard just needs to make a real pro circuit thats accessible to everybody, and then we will see just how "skill based" hearthstone is when different names keep winning every time.
@asteroidm, there were so many nested quoted it just seemed cleaner to end that chain. :P
I'd definitely agree with what you're saying though, and I'm sure opinions will vary in which one is more skill intensive but at the end of the day both are really quite hard to play perfectly in so there's a lot of room for growth in both games before you'd really be skill-capped. There are transferable skills that are generic to almost any TCG, but really at the end of the day they're hard in their own ways to master which makes an apples-to-apples comparison pretty impossible.
Do you know off the top of your head who the pros were that had the opposite stance of Stancifka? I've got a fascination with seeing MTG pros weigh in on Hearthstone's competitive side to see what differences there are from that viewpoint, since the HS competitive scene is really all I've truly dug into on an analytical level.
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Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
First, i highly doubt that everyone who claims that MgT is more complicated than Hearthstone has really played both games. I just can't believe that about 90% of the hearthstone players played this super expensive game. I played it (and spent most of my pocket money into it about 15 years ago) but most of my friends didn't. Most of those friends are now playing Hearthstone -> it is unrealistic that all those people who claim to know MgT, really know it. I think a lot of them just like to be part of the "cool kids"..
That said, the rules of MgT are way more complicated than Hearthstone. I am not just talking about the nearly endless amount of different mechanics but about the game itself. Even if both players only play with no card text minions and simple spells it stays more complicated than HS. You can interact with the board during your enemies turn with spells or through defending with your minions, you have to keep track of tapping etc. You even get punished if you tap to many land-cards without spending it's mana..
So there is really no doubt about it that HS is way simpler than MgT if you look at the rules of the game but a harder learning-curve doesn't make the gameplay more or less complex. The fact that you can't interact with your enemy if it is not your turn doesn't make the game simpler, it is just different. The fact that you don't put land (mana) cards into your deck also doesn't make the game simpler. (but of course the deck building is easier) The RNG makes Hearthstone gameplay in some cases even more complex than MgT. I know the hordes of RNG-haters would deny this because good/bad RNG can decide a game by itself BUT if you know to use your RNG to your advantage you will win way more games than bad players. In a game like MgT you don't need to adapt to changing situations as much and you don't have to think about risk-reward moves in the same way. I am not trying to say that MgT gameplay is simpler than HS but it is just different.
The huge community which tells you how to build and play nearly all decks is another a thing which makes HS a bit simpler..
To summarize: Hearthstone is way more simple in it's mechanics and learning curce(which may be a good thing) Hearthstone is way more simple in deckbuidling (because of the huge community + the lack of mana cards + the lack of endless mechanics) Hearthstone is as difficult as a game like MgT in it's tactical decissions. (But in MgT you won't find as many guides and how to-play videos for certain decks)
NOT "MgT"... i probably should have just stopped reading after seeing you call it "MgT" over and over. for somebody that has played for 15 years, you cant even call it the correct name? wowwww.
There are a crapton of guides and how to play videos for magic, what in the world are you talking about? Hearthstone is as difficult as magic? lol kk. You could do better at pretending you played MTG.
Yeah you are right wise guy you writes like a real name because he is hidden behind the interweb.. Typos happen even if godlike ceatures like you are can't see that. If you start making one it just continues sometimes.
I never said I played magic since 15 years, I said I played it 15 years ago when I was a child/teen.. That's a big difference but allmighty FryChikn probably allready knew it and wanted to test me.
There are guides out for mtg but not nowhere near as many as you can find you for hs. "Hearthstone is as difficult as magic? lol kk." is a very convincing counter argument.
Grow up and come back if you want to have a conversation about this topic. Save your bad manners for your classmates, this might make you cool.
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Who can take your trash out? Stomp it down for you? Shake the plastic bag and do the twisty thingy, too?
As someone who played mtg for quite some time and i had some success on it , its not really harder than hearthstone , in fact i think its more simple game.
Usually the meta at mtg is dominated by one deck if we talk about type 2 (standard) and then there are some monoreds and some stall/control decks filling the gap , the top deck is so good that its pointless to play the rest unless you dont have the budget to invest on it , its similar to how hearthstone was before the patron nerf with the only exception that patron was a hard deck back then and the gap was not so big.
Mulligan play etc are all simple at mtg , combat is also simpler imo because you dont have to be on the dilema face or trade which is a huge dilema at hs and can decide games itself.
If someone is telling you mtg is for pros or harder then he is lying , i literally made a top 8 on a gp qualifier the 2nd day i started to play mtg with a decklist from pojo and back then i didnt have much exp about these type of games.
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As someone who played mtg for quite some time and i had some success on it , its not really harder than hearthstone , in fact i think its more simple game.
Usually the meta at mtg is dominated by one deck if we talk about type 2 (standard) and then there are some monoreds and some stall/control decks filling the gap , the top deck is so good that its pointless to play the rest unless you dont have the budget to invest on it , its similar to how hearthstone was before the patron nerf with the only exception that patron was a hard deck back then and the gap was not so big.
Mulligan play etc are all simple at mtg , combat is also simpler imo because you dont have to be on the dilema face or trade which is a huge dilema at hs and can decide games itself.
If someone is telling you mtg is for pros or harder then he is lying , i literally made a top 8 on a gp qualifier the 2nd day i started to play mtg with a decklist from pojo and back then i didnt have much exp about these type of games.
Either you are a genius or your competition was not that good. Do you happen to have a link for the results that show your placement?
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The problem is you compare a fresh game with an ancient game.
A fair comparation would be to compare hearthstone to the first few mtg sets.
(Also don't forget that there is a graveyard in hs its just isn't shown, but cards like Ressurect, fugen/stalaag and Anyfin interract with it)
There is zero difference between the attacker choosing who to attack or the defender choosing who to block. The defender choosing version makes the game passive as most of the time you just don't attack.
It doesn't matter new vs old. In MtG old releases phase out as MtG Standard mode only keeps the most recent blocks (releases) and there are new mechanics introduced (cohort, Ally, etc.).
The only fair argument is that in HS the player chooses to attack the hero or the creature, whereas in MtG you always attack the Hero unless there is a mechanic that allows attacking an opponent's creature. In that sense, HS adds a more skilled mechanic. But compared with all the other mechanics available in MtG, the skill cap in MtG is significantly higher.
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Great art can never be created without great suffering.
Usually the meta at mtg is dominated by one deck if we talk about type 2 (standard) and then there are some monoreds and some stall/control decks filling the gap , the top deck is so good that its pointless to play the rest unless you dont have the budget to invest on it , its similar to how hearthstone was before the patron nerf with the only exception that patron was a hard deck back then and the gap was not so big.
I wanted to comment separately to this.
You are correct in that the meta in mtg is similar to that in HS, where a single deck dominates. However, there is still a much wider variety of decks than in HS. And that is because there are no exclusive "hero" cards. As long as you have the land type, you can play whatever you want. And THAT is what makes MtG much more skillful than HS. Instead of picking up a hero and have exclusive cards, you have to choose a color or two or three or more, and then you have to build a deck around that. All cards are HS commons.
So while the meta has similarities in both games, the reality of the numbers is nowhere near as similar.
For example:
Look at the metagame sample from mtgtop8 (Keep in mind that this sample is from pro tournaments and not your FNM and other events) :
Metagame Breakdown
<select style="width: 300px;" name="meta">
<option selected="selected" value="format?f=ST&meta=52">Last 2 Months</option>
<option value="format?f=ST&meta=50">Last 2 Weeks</option>
<option value="format?f=ST&meta=46">Live Tournaments Last 2 Months</option>
<option value="format?f=ST&meta=114">Standard 2014-2015 (Theros Block - Talkir Block)</option>
<option value="format?f=ST&meta=86">Standard 2013-2014 (Return to Ravnica Block - Theros Block)</option>
<option value="format?f=ST&meta=75">Standard 2012-2013 (Innistrad Block - Return to Ravnica Block)</option>
<option value="format?f=ST&meta=74">Standard 2011-2012 (Scars Block - Innistrad Block)</option>
<option value="format?f=ST&meta=45">Standard 2010-2011 (Zendikar Block - Scars Block)</option>
<option value="format?f=ST&meta=58">All Standard decks</option>
<option value="format?f=ST&meta=97">History - All Worlds</option>
<option value="format?f=ST&meta=91">History - All Pro Tour</option>
<option value="format?f=ST&meta=96">History - All Grand Prix</option>
</select>
As a person who avidly plays MtG as well as Hearthstone, I can honestly say that: while higher tier play can have complicated decisions and thought processes, MtG has the entire instant speed and Stack. Misplaying your cards to the stack can lead you lose because you might have miscalculated 2 damage from an enchantment that was cast 12 turns ago. On top of that but certain chains of effects are tons more complicated and game ending than Hearthstone (such as Mycoloth spawning 1 token which then becomes 64,000 tokens with +2/+2 and Haste[Charge] and you don't have a board clear [would you be able to block 64,000 Grim Patrons? Everyone get in here amirite?]).
There are many cases where someone can forget an effect and this leads to disqualification in MtG tournaments. Hearthstone doesn't have this issue because it keeps track of everything for you, keeping it straightforward. Just the other day I had forgotten a couple of effects because I almost lost. Said effect chain: I played a creature, should have drawn a card. I then attacked, had to scry 1 (look at the top card of my deck and choose to put it on the top or bottom), then deal damage, then draw a card, then exile the top card of their deck, gain life equal to that card's cost, choose whether to cast that card, then sacrifice a creature, then sacrifice another creature, all within the span of the Main Step and the Combat Step.
As someone who played mtg for quite some time and i had some success on it , its not really harder than hearthstone , in fact i think its more simple game.
Usually the meta at mtg is dominated by one deck if we talk about type 2 (standard) and then there are some monoreds and some stall/control decks filling the gap , the top deck is so good that its pointless to play the rest unless you dont have the budget to invest on it , its similar to how hearthstone was before the patron nerf with the only exception that patron was a hard deck back then and the gap was not so big.
Mulligan play etc are all simple at mtg , combat is also simpler imo because you dont have to be on the dilema face or trade which is a huge dilema at hs and can decide games itself.
If someone is telling you mtg is for pros or harder then he is lying , i literally made a top 8 on a gp qualifier the 2nd day i started to play mtg with a decklist from pojo and back then i didnt have much exp about these type of games.
Either you are a genius or your competition was not that good. Do you happen to have a link for the results that show your placement?
This happened at 2009-2010 , during the time when jund dominated standard , it was the new expansion after alara , i played a monored deck because i didnt have the budget , im not gonna post a link with my placement because i have to reveal my name and i dont wish to do that , im also not entirely sure if its still on the site. I literally copied the list from pojo and with some common sense and techs reached top 8. I have made more top 8 ofc andi have won several fnm , it was a very big event and the competetion was good.
You can make a case that i played an easy deck which essentially is the same as face hunter or aggro shaman but jund was not a hard deck either , neither the whitegreen baneslayer deck or the redwhite boros or even the green eldrazi were hard decks. Out of them all jund was FAR superior and if you had the money then there was no reason to play anything else. The meta after this period was even worse with the guy with the equipment , i dont remember exactly now but there was a broken deck with equips and it was very very strong.
I disagree totally that mtg has more option when it comes to deckbuilding , actually hearthstone is one of the most balanced games i have played with a very big meta , at type2 mtg there is usually one or at most two decks who dominate and there is no need to overthink anything , you just copy them and succeed , such thing doesnt exist at hs because every class is almost equally strong with the exception of the old patron but even then it wasnt that bad. It doenst matter if there not different heroes with specific cards at mtg because especially at standard only few of them are playable and its easy to notice what makes a good deck or not. I can agree with your point if we talk about legacy format , in that case deckbuilding can offer a lot of edge and becomes more complex because there are tons of options.
There are some decks at hs like control priest , patron , rogue who are very complex , the mulligan at hs is also more complex than mtg ,deckbuilding is potentially harder too because every single card has huge impact on the outcome. I cant remember even one deck which required that amount of skill at mtg , even some blueblackwhite control decks dont require so much skill.
Stacking and instant speed is more of an annoying thing rather than a hard one , chain is not possible to exist at an online tcg because it would make the experience very bad.
Overall hearthstone is a copy of the old wow tcg , wow tcg was originally created as a copy of mtg but with the aim to fix all the bad things mtg had , mana screw is the most notable one , this doesnt make it any easier though ,the mechanics are essentially the same.
Actually now that i recall my experience , the hardest thing i remember from mtg was the draft , draft required a fair amount of skill and i wasnt very good at it otherwise i would have made a top 8 on the nationals too.
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I don't feel like Hearthsone is any simpler than the blocks (Odyssey, Onslaught, Mirrodin) that I played MTG. I mainly played draft, and some standard as well. While the base of MTG is more Complex , especially with resolving abilities on the stack, the game itself has a very low RNG factor compared to HearthStone. That makes the plays themselves much more simple because you are for the most part responding to possible actions from your opponent. When you play things, you can use your judgement to take a calculated guess as to how your opponent will react.
Hearthstone has a ridiculous amount of depth because of trying to calculate for chances of RNG cards. RNG is significantly more complex to calculate around than the cards in MTG (at least at the time I played) because there are so many possibilities. Pretty sure this was purposely done to make a ridiculously high skill cap, while keeping the skill required to start playing very low.
RNG has 0 skill - you have 2 choices: 1) Get Lucky and 2) Not Get Lucky. RNG actually punishes the skill cap because it doesn't matter how good of a player you are, if you get No. 2 above, you will lose regardless of not making mistakes and playing the best option possible. That is why HS is just a grind rewarding game and not a skill rewarding game.
That's not true. Luck isn't bi-near, it branches out. Take poker for example. You aren't yolo raising for the 50% chance that you get lucky. You do it as a calculated risk/reward of all of the possible outcomes on the current and future streets. That's what makes stuff like that so complicated. When you play around with Flamewaker and has to choose the best line of play, again you need to put yourself through all the possible outcomes. This becomes increasingly difficult the bigger the board is and if you put Arcane Missiles into the mix as well. when you then on top of that need to put into account the opponents response + what happens on future turns on top of that (like you do in Magic) then it's not that simple.
That's a horrible analogy. There are 52 cards in poker, only 4 of each and 4 sets. Depending on the amount of players you are playing against you can make a very intelligent decision. Of course, there are bluffs and a high element of luck (You have to draw good cards like any card game), but poker also rewards good players and bad players get absolutely destroyed. That is not the case with HS.
The only point you made was that there are more cards in Hearthstone... I guess you win based on that statement for sure...
Also, poker rewards good players over long periods time. If it were just a single sitting more analogous to your extremely limited example, it would be a different story.
I don't feel like Hearthsone is any simpler than the blocks (Odyssey, Onslaught, Mirrodin) that I played MTG. I mainly played draft, and some standard as well. While the base of MTG is more Complex , especially with resolving abilities on the stack, the game itself has a very low RNG factor compared to HearthStone. That makes the plays themselves much more simple because you are for the most part responding to possible actions from your opponent. When you play things, you can use your judgement to take a calculated guess as to how your opponent will react.
Hearthstone has a ridiculous amount of depth because of trying to calculate for chances of RNG cards. RNG is significantly more complex to calculate around than the cards in MTG (at least at the time I played) because there are so many possibilities. Pretty sure this was purposely done to make a ridiculously high skill cap, while keeping the skill required to start playing very low.
RNG has 0 skill - you have 2 choices: 1) Get Lucky and 2) Not Get Lucky. RNG actually punishes the skill cap because it doesn't matter how good of a player you are, if you get No. 2 above, you will lose regardless of not making mistakes and playing the best option possible. That is why HS is just a grind rewarding game and not a skill rewarding game.
That's not true. Luck isn't bi-near, it branches out. Take poker for example. You aren't yolo raising for the 50% chance that you get lucky. You do it as a calculated risk/reward of all of the possible outcomes on the current and future streets. That's what makes stuff like that so complicated. When you play around with Flamewaker and has to choose the best line of play, again you need to put yourself through all the possible outcomes. This becomes increasingly difficult the bigger the board is and if you put Arcane Missiles into the mix as well. when you then on top of that need to put into account the opponents response + what happens on future turns on top of that (like you do in Magic) then it's not that simple.
That's a horrible analogy. There are 52 cards in poker, only 4 of each and 4 sets. Depending on the amount of players you are playing against you can make a very intelligent decision. Of course, there are bluffs and a high element of luck (You have to draw good cards like any card game), but poker also rewards good players and bad players get absolutely destroyed. That is not the case with HS.
The only point you made was that there are more cards in Hearthstone... I guess you win based on that statement for sure...
Also, poker rewards good players over long periods time. If it were just a single sitting more analogous to your extremely limited example, it would be a different story.
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
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Great art can never be created without great suffering.
the mechanics that hearthstone uses thatonly work because its a digital game definitely makes it more complex. but it doesn't beat the complexity added to magic by being able to play cards on your opponent's turn, and the entirety of hearthstone isnt as complex as the stack.
I disagree totally that mtg has more option when it comes to deckbuilding , actually hearthstone is one of the most balanced games i have played with a very big meta , at type2 mtg there is usually one or at most two decks who dominate and there is no need to overthink anything , you just copy them and succeed , such thing doesnt exist at hs because every class is almost equally strong with the exception of the old patron but even then it wasnt that bad. It doenst matter if there not different heroes with specific cards at mtg because especially at standard only few of them are playable and its easy to notice what makes a good deck or not. I can agree with your point if we talk about legacy format , in that case deckbuilding can offer a lot of edge and becomes more complex because there are tons of options.
If there is a card game where you copy a deck and succeed, it is HS. Or have you missed the Secret Paladins, Face Hunters, Mech Mages, Face Shamans, Combo Druid, Freeze Mage, Zoo Lock, Hand Lock, Patron Warrior, etc.
In MtG, not only Legacy, but Modern, Pauper, EDH and it does make a difference in Standard as well...
If you want to limit MtG to the Standard format only, you have to wait until HS Standard comes out to truly compare. In the mean time, HS is like Legacy with no ban cards. And like you have agreed to, already, it is a lot more complex in MtG.
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Great art can never be created without great suffering.
NOT "MgT"... i probably should have just stopped reading after seeing you call it "MgT" over and over. for somebody that has played for 15 years, you cant even call it the correct name? wowwww.
There are a crapton of guides and how to play videos for magic, what in the world are you talking about? Hearthstone is as difficult as magic? lol kk. You could do better at pretending you played MTG.
Maybe its an abbreviation for "management".
Or he's been playing "Magic Gathering the".
/jk just kidding
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Join my crew guys
I think blizzard just needs to make a real pro circuit thats accessible to everybody, and then we will see just how "skill based" hearthstone is when different names keep winning every time.
@asteroidm, there were so many nested quoted it just seemed cleaner to end that chain. :P
I'd definitely agree with what you're saying though, and I'm sure opinions will vary in which one is more skill intensive but at the end of the day both are really quite hard to play perfectly in so there's a lot of room for growth in both games before you'd really be skill-capped. There are transferable skills that are generic to almost any TCG, but really at the end of the day they're hard in their own ways to master which makes an apples-to-apples comparison pretty impossible.
Do you know off the top of your head who the pros were that had the opposite stance of Stancifka? I've got a fascination with seeing MTG pros weigh in on Hearthstone's competitive side to see what differences there are from that viewpoint, since the HS competitive scene is really all I've truly dug into on an analytical level.
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
"Hearthstone is as difficult as magic? lol kk." is a very convincing counter argument.
Who can take your trash out?
Stomp it down for you?
Shake the plastic bag
and do the twisty thingy, too?
As someone who played mtg for quite some time and i had some success on it , its not really harder than hearthstone , in fact i think its more simple game.
Usually the meta at mtg is dominated by one deck if we talk about type 2 (standard) and then there are some monoreds and some stall/control decks filling the gap , the top deck is so good that its pointless to play the rest unless you dont have the budget to invest on it , its similar to how hearthstone was before the patron nerf with the only exception that patron was a hard deck back then and the gap was not so big.
Mulligan play etc are all simple at mtg , combat is also simpler imo because you dont have to be on the dilema face or trade which is a huge dilema at hs and can decide games itself.
If someone is telling you mtg is for pros or harder then he is lying , i literally made a top 8 on a gp qualifier the 2nd day i started to play mtg with a decklist from pojo and back then i didnt have much exp about these type of games.
Best book on the web, read now! -> https://www.amazon.com/Hearthstone-Advanced-Tactics-Depth-Strategy-ebook/dp/B079FD2GW8/ref=sr_1_8?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1517733720&sr=1-8&keywords=hearthstone
It teach you how to reach the high legend bracket by understanding theory and applying practical advice. Written by a high legend player and professional coach.
Im starting to wish somebody could find the 7 dragon balls and wish for the actual answer to "what game is more complicated/skill based".
because being on a HEARTHSTONE FORUM, its clear what a lot of people will think, blindly.
Great art can never be created without great suffering.
or he's lying
Moment of silence for those lost. FeelsBadMan
Great art can never be created without great suffering.
62 %
25 %
13 %
Great art can never be created without great suffering.
As a person who avidly plays MtG as well as Hearthstone, I can honestly say that: while higher tier play can have complicated decisions and thought processes, MtG has the entire instant speed and Stack. Misplaying your cards to the stack can lead you lose because you might have miscalculated 2 damage from an enchantment that was cast 12 turns ago. On top of that but certain chains of effects are tons more complicated and game ending than Hearthstone (such as Mycoloth spawning 1 token which then becomes 64,000 tokens with +2/+2 and Haste[Charge] and you don't have a board clear [would you be able to block 64,000 Grim Patrons? Everyone get in here amirite?]).
There are many cases where someone can forget an effect and this leads to disqualification in MtG tournaments. Hearthstone doesn't have this issue because it keeps track of everything for you, keeping it straightforward. Just the other day I had forgotten a couple of effects because I almost lost. Said effect chain: I played a creature, should have drawn a card. I then attacked, had to scry 1 (look at the top card of my deck and choose to put it on the top or bottom), then deal damage, then draw a card, then exile the top card of their deck, gain life equal to that card's cost, choose whether to cast that card, then sacrifice a creature, then sacrifice another creature, all within the span of the Main Step and the Combat Step.
Best book on the web, read now! -> https://www.amazon.com/Hearthstone-Advanced-Tactics-Depth-Strategy-ebook/dp/B079FD2GW8/ref=sr_1_8?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1517733720&sr=1-8&keywords=hearthstone
It teach you how to reach the high legend bracket by understanding theory and applying practical advice. Written by a high legend player and professional coach.
Hearthstone isn't more simple than MTG only because of the rules. And that is where your fallacy lies.
Just compare a couple of cards. Most Legendaries in Hearthstone do not even have the amount of card text as many Magic commons.
Hearthstone is easier than MTG because it stuck in perpetual MTG core set (and even that may be giving Hearthstone too much credit).
Great art can never be created without great suffering.
the mechanics that hearthstone uses thatonly work because its a digital game definitely makes it more complex. but it doesn't beat the complexity added to magic by being able to play cards on your opponent's turn, and the entirety of hearthstone isnt as complex as the stack.
Great art can never be created without great suffering.
How can anyone say that the Stack isn't complex?
I feel like these people haven't learned how deep the rules on the Stack actually go.