Everyone desperate for tournament mode, if you haven't seen the Well Met podcast watch this:
Edit: @$*()# I knew I wouldn't get it right: The segment starts at 33:09 which is where they mention Tournament mode to Yong Woo.
:
Ok done? So Blizzard is interested in Tournament mode, but isn't sure how to implement it in a way that works for Hearthstone. They want ideas from the community.
So let's hear it. Not just "OMG TOURNY MODE GOGOGOGO" but how SHOULD it work? How should it look like in Hearthstone? Again, WATCH the segment to see some of the issues they are concerned about it.
notes (some from the podcast, some from myself):
-Hearthstone isn't made for sitting down and waiting for brackets to go, especially since a best of 3 can go up to 1 hour long and we aren't exactly used to waiting more than 20 seconds for a match.
-Should it be limited in how many games you can play? If you can keep running tournaments endlessly for rewards with nothing stopping you then it's nothing more than Ranked which benefits grinding with fast decks over win rates. Tournaments are cherished because it's a few games that are too critical to mess with.
-Should it be constantly offered, like Arena, or specific timed formats? Should they be done by blizzard or just some way for indivdiuals to make their own? Remember that too many places for tournaments means splitting up the community too much to make them really work.
So, Blizzard wants us to talk about what 'tournament mode' actually means to us. So, let's get going.
(yes, I know blizzard doesn't read this. This is between us to see how we feel about it)
What if the bracket was not actually built at the start of the tourney but filled itself out as the rounds went along. That way person X who won his/her first round isnt waiting for the winner of Y vs. Z, but rather waiting for any other person who won there first round. You designate the size of tourney you want to enter which determines how many rounds / rewards (128 person is 7 rounds as an example). Once you enter a tourney you have 24 hours to complete each round so a tourney that was 128 people would take max a week and you would not have to sit there for 7-8 hours to finish the tourney. I would also make it a best of 2 where you bring 3 decks and ban a class to reduce the time each round took.
In terms of how often you can enter them I think the way I would implement it is that you can only enter a tournament once a day.
Arena with constructed decks is a pretty easy solution. No waiting for opponents. Still get to test your mettle. Blizz would earn some $$.
Then I'd suggest on top of that creating an app that lets you run old school bracketed tournaments for those that need that kind of thing. Sort of off book, maybe give developers some tools to work with to get 3rd party solutions.
Watching whole podcast, after you said about it, I feel a relief, because they actually think about it and stopped their "we know what you want better then you" (like it was before). So, about tournament mode - there are actualy 2 or 3 ways of tournament types that I would like to see and participate: 1 - quick tournaments with special rules (bo3 or bo5, conquest or last hero standing or ffa etc) that will be held automaticly, very similar to arena, the difference with ladder is that it is not bo1 ofc. This could have some entering fee and award cards, cardbacks etc. 2 - almighty tool to create a tournament with rules helding by some admins (players that created it for example) that can lock your decks if neccesary and do other stuff to held a tournament, that could give players HWC points and/or cash prizes 3 - some crazy thing for fun tournaments like "Everyone plays mage", or "This weeks brawl tournament" just to have fun.
Tournaments start let's say on Friday. It goes on for a the weekend (Much like tavern brawl actually). In each tournaments there would be a finite amount of player (ex. 250 or enough to not have to wait too much). So there could be numerous amount of tournaments taking place at the same time.
At the end you would get rewards depending on the following:
Most wins
Most Wins Paladin, Shamans, etc
Longest Win Streak
and so on..
you would be able to see where you stand at at any point during the tournament.
This is my personal view on how I would see the tournaments implemented in hearthstone
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you Hex a Murloc... it really isn't much of a change, is it?
Just like Arena if you stop playing once you've won 5 games, you can come back to playing arena with 5 wins and continue.
For example, in an 8 person tournament there will be 3 legs: First Round, Semi-finals, and Final. If you start and stop after winning the "First Round" when you come back to playing an 8 person tournament you start in the "Semi-finals". When you queue you will get paired with someone with a similar record.
This could work for tournaments of any size. Tournaments will be available all the time for a small entry fee.
The alternate is you will queue just like arena and play 3 games against whoever and if you win 3 games you win the 8 person tournament. You would need to win 4 games if it was a 16 person tournament and so on.
Of course for constructed rules. If there are formats then you get to choose which format. It would need to work differently for drafts, etc.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My card design for the Winter Unveiling Competition.
This is slightly off topic, but I would like a "Sealed" play mode. You have a pool of cards that you use to construct a deck, and so it is another Limited format (like Arena). However, you would have more construction options, since you would have to decide what class to select once you look at your pool.
This may fragment the "Arena" demographic, but I think I would find it more interesting. Since you would have a larger pool of cards to work with, you can trying creating decks with more unusual synergies, Additionally, it's closer to constructed deck building, but without facing the same 5 decks in every match.
If it were to be played as a tournament, you could make the matches best-of-3, and you have to play different decks in each game.(There was an unofficial tournament trying that out, I believe.) Which means that you are constructing 3 decks out of your pool, and that creates more difficult decisions -- do you have two very strong decks and a weak third, or try to balance all three? Obviously, if you are building 3 decks, your sealed pool would have to have a lot of cards.
However, it would be easier to have an Arena-style "play until you lose 3" format, with a single deck (allowing players to rebuild between matches).
Just like Arena if you stop playing once you've won 5 games, you can come back to playing arena with 5 wins and continue.
For example, in an 8 person tournament there will be 3 legs: First Round, Semi-finals, and Final. If you start and stop after winning the "First Round" when you come back to playing an 8 person tournament you start in the "Semi-finals". When you queue you will get paired with someone with a similar record.
This could work for tournaments of any size. Tournaments will be available all the time for a small entry fee.
The alternate is you will queue just like arena and play 3 games against whoever and if you win 3 games you win the 8 person tournament. You would need to win 4 games if it was a 16 person tournament and so on.
Of course for constructed rules. If there are formats then you get to choose which format. It would need to work differently for drafts, etc.
I think this is the most likely format as it could get messy if you're requiring people to stay for the duration of a tournament. A lot of people might drop off in the middle and you get wins by default which is just not as fun for everyone.
Similarly to Arena though I'd like it to somehow lock your decks so you can't change mid-tournament. So if you have decided on 3 decklists prior to the start of a tournament you stick with those decklists throughout the tournament mode until you've lost against someone.
If anyone ever played LOTR TCG online back in the early 2000s it was amazing. Sad to see that game go, but they had an amazing tournament system. Sit and go with quick 45 minute rounds (hearthstone could be 25-30). They should imitate that system and charge an entry fee in packs. Larger tournaments would be regularly scheduled so they could run massive tournaments a few times a week.
Watching whole podcast, after you said about it, I feel a relief, because they actually think about it and stopped their "we know what you want better then you" (like it was before).
Their entire stance seems to have been built on that now. They're flat out saying that they made mistakes and that they aren't sure about what's going on. They ask for advice and take it (if you havn't, read up on the article on the September meeting with the various streamers and players. The format system would've looked A ALOT different if it was purely blizzard's idea). Now they are flat out saying what's holding back Tournament mode and, in writing, saying that the format system may fall flat on its butt and need major fixes.
It's very new. and something I want to heavily encourage. It's being open without being pandering.
As far as ideas, I like Ecnarongi's idea of mixing traditional tournament with Arena. The idea of a 3-deck locked system seems pretty accepted (there's a ton of threads about the problems with a single deck+sideboard in hearthstone. I don't think anyone wants my 10 page summary of that topic :P).
Perhaps mix in a swiss theme to each 'bracket'. That is, you start off on "First round" where you play 5 best -of-3 games. You don't need ot do it all together, just that you won't be 'judged' until after you complete your 5th game.
Each day, the players who've completed 5 games in a bracket are judged with.. Of them half, rounded down, advance to the next bracket based most matches with most wins used for tie breaks.
Those folks reach the 2nd round and repeat the same treatment for five brackets (1st round, 2nd round, Quarterfinals, Semifinals, Finals). If there's not enough people in a particular bracket then the required games shrink. I can imagine Finals being just you finding one person. Of course depending on the expected numbers of players in each bracket the # of brackets can also change.
Personally, I'd say we go Double elemenation for the first four brackets. That is, if you fail to advance you get one shot to repeat the same bracket. Fail again and it's over. Finals is single elimination.
Such a system would allow for large groups of players to play and not require specific timings. You could join in, then take 2 months to complete your 5 games. It does also mean you can have multiple 'winners' but that's fine since they had to prove themselves in the same manner. You can then set rewards based on what bracket you end up at the end with failing at Round one giving you nothing.
The system would be anti-grindy. There's a set number of games played with no time limit, to no benefit to rushing your games with a grind deck. Also means that you aren't REALLY taking away from ranked/arena since you do your tournament games then go play another format. Thus you don' tneed an entry fee.
There can be a tournament mode with 4-8-16 players . All players will pay like 100 gold or something (can be also free )and earn decent gold to win. All players will build their own3 decks BEFORE join ,because deck values are very important here because nee players or free to play players will never have chance or littlechance .so in the range of ur deck value game will find for u a tournament . And the winner will lose one deck so game will force the players to play different classes and decks and the winner must win the game with all his 3 decks. And the losers can also make match for 3. And 4. Place after in the 4 person tournament for example. This will bring the game new experience and fun.
I'm not sure how to implement a tournament mode (yet) but it's better if it's organised in specific timed formats by Blizzard. The fact that you can't play all the time is what makes tournaments feel so special (no boring grinding all the time). If it's been offered constantly like Arena, then It's just another game mode.
I'm not sure if we can have a 'classic' tournament mode in Hearthstone. The way I imagine it would have to be something similar to Arena where everybody fights with everybody.
I'm not convinced it's a good design but here's one way of doing a 'tournament' mode:
You enter with 3 different constructed decks (Standard). You will have to win with all 3 decks in all Tournament 'levels' and you can't choose what deck you're gonna play first, that will be randomized. When you first enter you will be in Tournament level 1. Just like arena- if you loose 3 games you're out. But if you get to 3 wins before you get to 3 losses you will progress to Tournament level 2. In Tournament level 2 you need to win 3 games BUT in Tournament level 2 you will be eliminated with just 2 losses. If you get to 3 wins before 2 losses you'll progress to tournament level 3. In this level you have to win 3 games a row to 'win the tournament' (to get a prize), but you can't have any losses in level 3. If you pass level 3 you will go to Tournament Legend where you can play until you get your first loss. The more games you win a row in Tournament Legend- the better price you will get.
This is one clunky idea I had. 'Levels' would be like brackets in regular tournament mode. But not sure if this would even be considered as a 'tournament' mode, maybe more like a weird interesting game mode :)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I didn't have a signature so Flux added one for me.
1) You submit three decks, and pay a gold of buy-in ammount (let say 100 gold or whatever depending on tournament).
2) Let assume players have options to play up to N matches during a tournament life-cycle (e.g. it is a week or couple of days), like a swiss, but with random opponents. For each win player receives somes points.
3) In the end, as time passes, the playoff series starts, And some players are up to play single elimination matches, so the winner determined.
E.g. it could be 128 players tournament, 3 days, each player plays 7 matches, top16 advances to playoff
Everyone desperate for tournament mode, if you haven't seen the Well Met podcast watch this:
Edit: @$*()# I knew I wouldn't get it right: The segment starts at 33:09 which is where they mention Tournament mode to Yong Woo.
:
Ok done? So Blizzard is interested in Tournament mode, but isn't sure how to implement it in a way that works for Hearthstone. They want ideas from the community.
So let's hear it. Not just "OMG TOURNY MODE GOGOGOGO" but how SHOULD it work? How should it look like in Hearthstone? Again, WATCH the segment to see some of the issues they are concerned about it.
notes (some from the podcast, some from myself):
-Hearthstone isn't made for sitting down and waiting for brackets to go, especially since a best of 3 can go up to 1 hour long and we aren't exactly used to waiting more than 20 seconds for a match.
-Should it be limited in how many games you can play? If you can keep running tournaments endlessly for rewards with nothing stopping you then it's nothing more than Ranked which benefits grinding with fast decks over win rates. Tournaments are cherished because it's a few games that are too critical to mess with.
-Should it be constantly offered, like Arena, or specific timed formats? Should they be done by blizzard or just some way for indivdiuals to make their own? Remember that too many places for tournaments means splitting up the community too much to make them really work.
So, Blizzard wants us to talk about what 'tournament mode' actually means to us. So, let's get going.
(yes, I know blizzard doesn't read this. This is between us to see how we feel about it)
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
What if the bracket was not actually built at the start of the tourney but filled itself out as the rounds went along. That way person X who won his/her first round isnt waiting for the winner of Y vs. Z, but rather waiting for any other person who won there first round. You designate the size of tourney you want to enter which determines how many rounds / rewards (128 person is 7 rounds as an example). Once you enter a tourney you have 24 hours to complete each round so a tourney that was 128 people would take max a week and you would not have to sit there for 7-8 hours to finish the tourney. I would also make it a best of 2 where you bring 3 decks and ban a class to reduce the time each round took.
In terms of how often you can enter them I think the way I would implement it is that you can only enter a tournament once a day.
Arena with constructed decks is a pretty easy solution. No waiting for opponents. Still get to test your mettle. Blizz would earn some $$.
Then I'd suggest on top of that creating an app that lets you run old school bracketed tournaments for those that need that kind of thing. Sort of off book, maybe give developers some tools to work with to get 3rd party solutions.
Galavant Animation
Watching whole podcast, after you said about it, I feel a relief, because they actually think about it and stopped their "we know what you want better then you" (like it was before).
So, about tournament mode - there are actualy 2 or 3 ways of tournament types that I would like to see and participate:
1 - quick tournaments with special rules (bo3 or bo5, conquest or last hero standing or ffa etc) that will be held automaticly, very similar to arena, the difference with ladder is that it is not bo1 ofc. This could have some entering fee and award cards, cardbacks etc.
2 - almighty tool to create a tournament with rules helding by some admins (players that created it for example) that can lock your decks if neccesary and do other stuff to held a tournament, that could give players HWC points and/or cash prizes
3 - some crazy thing for fun tournaments like "Everyone plays mage", or "This weeks brawl tournament" just to have fun.
I would see it like this:
Tournaments start let's say on Friday. It goes on for a the weekend (Much like tavern brawl actually). In each tournaments there would be a finite amount of player (ex. 250 or enough to not have to wait too much). So there could be numerous amount of tournaments taking place at the same time.
At the end you would get rewards depending on the following:
Most wins
Most Wins Paladin, Shamans, etc
Longest Win Streak
and so on..
you would be able to see where you stand at at any point during the tournament.
This is my personal view on how I would see the tournaments implemented in hearthstone
If you Hex a Murloc... it really isn't much of a change, is it?
Tournaments can be run in legs.
Just like Arena if you stop playing once you've won 5 games, you can come back to playing arena with 5 wins and continue.
For example, in an 8 person tournament there will be 3 legs: First Round, Semi-finals, and Final. If you start and stop after winning the "First Round" when you come back to playing an 8 person tournament you start in the "Semi-finals". When you queue you will get paired with someone with a similar record.
This could work for tournaments of any size. Tournaments will be available all the time for a small entry fee.
The alternate is you will queue just like arena and play 3 games against whoever and if you win 3 games you win the 8 person tournament. You would need to win 4 games if it was a 16 person tournament and so on.
Of course for constructed rules. If there are formats then you get to choose which format. It would need to work differently for drafts, etc.
My card design for the Winter Unveiling Competition.
This is slightly off topic, but I would like a "Sealed" play mode. You have a pool of cards that you use to construct a deck, and so it is another Limited format (like Arena). However, you would have more construction options, since you would have to decide what class to select once you look at your pool.
This may fragment the "Arena" demographic, but I think I would find it more interesting. Since you would have a larger pool of cards to work with, you can trying creating decks with more unusual synergies, Additionally, it's closer to constructed deck building, but without facing the same 5 decks in every match.
If it were to be played as a tournament, you could make the matches best-of-3, and you have to play different decks in each game.(There was an unofficial tournament trying that out, I believe.) Which means that you are constructing 3 decks out of your pool, and that creates more difficult decisions -- do you have two very strong decks and a weak third, or try to balance all three? Obviously, if you are building 3 decks, your sealed pool would have to have a lot of cards.
However, it would be easier to have an Arena-style "play until you lose 3" format, with a single deck (allowing players to rebuild between matches).
Well, for starters, it needs to be exclusively real money entry only to prevent leechers lowering the level of competition.
"Put your face in the light!" - Tirion Fordring
Arena Leaderboard EU - September 2018: #47 (@7.77 Wins Average)
In my opinion, they should do like Pokemon tcg online.
If anyone ever played LOTR TCG online back in the early 2000s it was amazing. Sad to see that game go, but they had an amazing tournament system. Sit and go with quick 45 minute rounds (hearthstone could be 25-30). They should imitate that system and charge an entry fee in packs. Larger tournaments would be regularly scheduled so they could run massive tournaments a few times a week.
Their entire stance seems to have been built on that now. They're flat out saying that they made mistakes and that they aren't sure about what's going on. They ask for advice and take it (if you havn't, read up on the article on the September meeting with the various streamers and players. The format system would've looked A ALOT different if it was purely blizzard's idea). Now they are flat out saying what's holding back Tournament mode and, in writing, saying that the format system may fall flat on its butt and need major fixes.
It's very new. and something I want to heavily encourage. It's being open without being pandering.
As far as ideas, I like Ecnarongi's idea of mixing traditional tournament with Arena. The idea of a 3-deck locked system seems pretty accepted (there's a ton of threads about the problems with a single deck+sideboard in hearthstone. I don't think anyone wants my 10 page summary of that topic :P).
Perhaps mix in a swiss theme to each 'bracket'. That is, you start off on "First round" where you play 5 best -of-3 games. You don't need ot do it all together, just that you won't be 'judged' until after you complete your 5th game.
Each day, the players who've completed 5 games in a bracket are judged with.. Of them half, rounded down, advance to the next bracket based most matches with most wins used for tie breaks.
Those folks reach the 2nd round and repeat the same treatment for five brackets (1st round, 2nd round, Quarterfinals, Semifinals, Finals). If there's not enough people in a particular bracket then the required games shrink. I can imagine Finals being just you finding one person. Of course depending on the expected numbers of players in each bracket the # of brackets can also change.
Personally, I'd say we go Double elemenation for the first four brackets. That is, if you fail to advance you get one shot to repeat the same bracket. Fail again and it's over. Finals is single elimination.
Such a system would allow for large groups of players to play and not require specific timings. You could join in, then take 2 months to complete your 5 games. It does also mean you can have multiple 'winners' but that's fine since they had to prove themselves in the same manner. You can then set rewards based on what bracket you end up at the end with failing at Round one giving you nothing.
The system would be anti-grindy. There's a set number of games played with no time limit, to no benefit to rushing your games with a grind deck. Also means that you aren't REALLY taking away from ranked/arena since you do your tournament games then go play another format. Thus you don' tneed an entry fee.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
There can be a tournament mode with 4-8-16 players . All players will pay like 100 gold or something (can be also free )and earn decent gold to win. All players will build their own3 decks BEFORE join ,because deck values are very important here because nee players or free to play players will never have chance or littlechance .so in the range of ur deck value game will find for u a tournament . And the winner will lose one deck so game will force the players to play different classes and decks and the winner must win the game with all his 3 decks. And the losers can also make match for 3. And 4. Place after in the 4 person tournament for example. This will bring the game new experience and fun.
I'm not sure how to implement a tournament mode (yet) but it's better if it's organised in specific timed formats by Blizzard. The fact that you can't play all the time is what makes tournaments feel so special (no boring grinding all the time). If it's been offered constantly like Arena, then It's just another game mode.
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
I'm not sure if we can have a 'classic' tournament mode in Hearthstone. The way I imagine it would have to be something similar to Arena where everybody fights with everybody.
I'm not convinced it's a good design but here's one way of doing a 'tournament' mode:
You enter with 3 different constructed decks (Standard). You will have to win with all 3 decks in all Tournament 'levels' and you can't choose what deck you're gonna play first, that will be randomized. When you first enter you will be in Tournament level 1. Just like arena- if you loose 3 games you're out. But if you get to 3 wins before you get to 3 losses you will progress to Tournament level 2. In Tournament level 2 you need to win 3 games BUT in Tournament level 2 you will be eliminated with just 2 losses. If you get to 3 wins before 2 losses you'll progress to tournament level 3. In this level you have to win 3 games a row to 'win the tournament' (to get a prize), but you can't have any losses in level 3. If you pass level 3 you will go to Tournament Legend where you can play until you get your first loss. The more games you win a row in Tournament Legend- the better price you will get.
This is one clunky idea I had. 'Levels' would be like brackets in regular tournament mode. But not sure if this would even be considered as a 'tournament' mode, maybe more like a weird interesting game mode :)
I didn't have a signature so Flux added one for me.
The idea of arena-like tournament is fine:
1) You submit three decks, and pay a gold of buy-in ammount (let say 100 gold or whatever depending on tournament).
2) Let assume players have options to play up to N matches during a tournament life-cycle (e.g. it is a week or couple of days), like a swiss, but with random opponents. For each win player receives somes points.
3) In the end, as time passes, the playoff series starts, And some players are up to play single elimination matches, so the winner determined.
E.g. it could be 128 players tournament, 3 days, each player plays 7 matches, top16 advances to playoff
Perhaps they could run tournaments which are linked to your ladder position?
There would be tournaments for rank 25-20,19-15,14-10,9-5,4-legend.
With more prizes for higher ranked tournaments so the higher up you are the more competitive they are.
tournament idea:
let people qualify, invite nobody.
What Hearthstone is missing is the concept of draft.
I've been thinking about it but it's really complicated with this 9-classes system.