Magic is a physical hard to pay to win game where the average player spends hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Hearthstone is a digital free to play game where the average player doesn't spend a cent.
They are not comparable.
They are extremely comparable from the point of view of game design. The cards in Magic and Hearthstone use small whole numbers for statistics, and so any balance change has a huge impact. A vanilla 3 mana 5/2 in Hearthstone is unplayable, but a 2 mana 5/2 would be OP. There is no way of making it 2.88 mana in order to "balance" it.
Other video games have units that typically take a lot of hits before dying. You can change an infantry unit in a real time strategy game from 100 hit points to 105, and such a small change can show up in game balance. This is why other video games can continuously make balance tweaks.
This means that Hearthstone and Magic end up with the same rebalancing issues. And guess what - the Hearthstone designers ended up using the same solution (set rotation) to deal with the same problem.
So your solution is to delete cards entirely.... Thank god you don't work at Blizzard.
At least this way we have a different mode to use the cards in
TGT was a great expansion if GvG/BRM didn't exist. Not just poisoned blade, that will always suck, but cards like gagetzan jouster, may see play instead of chow, for one example
STANDARDS ALREADY DELETE CARDS ENTIRELY!
Sarcasm is not your friend apparently.
But standard doesn't delete cards. Actually, no cards are deleted, there are 2 (!) formats, one with recent cards, one with all cards. You can still always go to your collection and look at Dr. Boom. Your suggestion, that is impossible.
So nobody have successfully taken up my challenge. Balance Naxx and GvG in such a way that most of TGT becomes viable, without killing (or severely reducing the appearance of) Naxx and GvG. If you argue nerfs are the way the go, here is your chance to prove it. If you argue that nerfs are the way to go, this is the first thing that needs to be done.
Your "challenge" isn't consistent with the objective of implementing Standard mode. That's why no one is taking it up. It'd be a pointless exercise.
I don't understand how anyone can say the implementation of "Standard mode" is a bad thing. The OP says just remove the flavors and keep the balanced, but that would inevitably still lead to a stale meta game. Your cards aren't worthless, you can still use them, and if you argue that you won't be able to use them in tournaments, let me counter you with this: "If 0.5% of the player base in in Legend, then that's 99.5% of the player base that have no chance to win tournaments, let alone qualify for one." On top of that by making the classic and basic cards the foundation for the game, it ensures that new players will be able to catch up to veterans in a reasonable amount of time. It ensures that the meta for the tournament is constantly changing, and that new ideas and decks have more potential to change the aforementioned meta of that time. GvG has the most amount of RNG based core cards in the game, and based on expansions since then it seems blizz would like to move away from SO MUCH rng in a game that is already dependent on rng in the firstplace. The longest standing tcg's (such as mtg) don't have the sheer amount of random bs that can occur in a single match, the rng in the match should always be card draw, not "can I get Emperor out of a turn 2 unstable portal?"
Magic the Gathering has 1300 cards in the current standard -- and there's room for at least 2500 balanced cards in one standard set.
Functional duplicates of other cards at higher costs...
Ethereal Darkcaster: Change your hero power to Shadowform
Auchenai Necromancer: Your opponent can't restore health
Auchenai High Priestess: Your spells and abilities that would restore health deals damage if used on enemies
Exarch Maladaar: ALL spells and abilities that would restore health deals damage instead
... Sure.
You might not have played all of them. But... damnit -- there's room for all of them within the same standard.
Some of these cards will still be objectively better most of the time. There's only ~20 decks or so that can be in the meta, no matter how you design it. So effectively it's still going to be either power creep or a weak expansion. Let's suppose for contradiction that you somehow magically make it work, what next? You can't go infinite like this.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People who refuses to play aggro out of principle are even worse than people who play exclusively aggro.
One should seek to become a complete player and play all archetypes, including ones that he despises for whatever irrational reasons.
Magic the Gathering has 1300 cards in the current standard -- and there's room for at least 2500 balanced cards in one standard set.
Functional duplicates of other cards at higher costs...
Ethereal Darkcaster: Change your hero power to Shadowform
Auchenai Necromancer: Your opponent can't restore health
Auchenai High Priestess: Your spells and abilities that would restore health deals damage if used on enemies
Exarch Maladaar: ALL spells and abilities that would restore health deals damage instead
... Sure.
You might not have played all of them. But... damnit -- there's room for all of them within the same standard.
Some of these cards will still be objectively better most of the time. There's only ~20 decks or so that can be in the meta, no matter how you design it. So effectively it's still going to be either power creep or a weak expansion. Let's suppose for contradiction that you somehow magically make it work, what next? You can't go infinite like this.
"Some of them will be objectively better most of the time"...
Wait. What? Did balance become hard all of a sudden? In a digital game where they can patch balance on a weekly basis, and track millions of games played each day?
They're just lazy for not balancing the game better, and unlike Magic the Gathering, they can retcon cards literally all day long -- they could change any one card ten times in one single day, change a card 10 000 000 players own, without any effort. They've got Wizards of the Coast's wet dream come true -- and they're not even trying to enjoy the benefits.
So nobody have successfully taken up my challenge. Balance Naxx and GvG in such a way that most of TGT becomes viable, without killing (or severely reducing the appearance of) Naxx and GvG. If you argue nerfs are the way the go, here is your chance to prove it. If you argue that nerfs are the way to go, this is the first thing that needs to be done.
Just deleting all the cards TGT was competing against is ofc the easiest solution for sure. The way you make TGT viable is by nerfing boom and shredder. WoW! Already have like a lot of different cards you can use suddenly! Also the main reason why most TGT cards are not used would be since they suck. Or do you think that Poisoned Blade will see play in standard?
his point still stands. If you want to keep all of the cards in the same format then you need an alternative solution. Bilzzard tried that with 'horizontal building' and TGT was the result. It failed, horribly.
The alternative would be to make TGT stronger. Make it compete with GvG or even be better than it and Classic. THAT is Power Creep, aka the "Yu-Gi-Oh method" suggested by this thread. It would work, but it would still result in GvG/Naxx being kicked out. Just in a way that 'seems' less direct. Why play Chow when Jouster starts as a 2/2 and turns into a 3/3 if it wins the joust? And Joust works with ties. Why play Boom when Justicar is a 6 mana 6/6 that makes your hero power stronger AND free? Oh and Ice Rager silences then kills deathrattles.
Thus the challenge stands. If we don't want to not do Formats, and we don't want to go Power Creep. What DO we do? Keep going the TGT route with expansions that do nothing? Do we mass nerf cards, which still means your GvG/Naxx becomes worthless?
That's not rhetorical. That's teh question asked of you. Don't reply with sarcasm. Answer the question.
How DO we keep GvG/Naxx in the current format without ruining them via nerfs/creep while making new expansions viable?
Magic the Gathering has 1300 cards in the current standard -- and there's room for at least 2500 balanced cards in one standard set.
Functional duplicates of other cards at higher costs...
Ethereal Darkcaster: Change your hero power to Shadowform
Auchenai Necromancer: Your opponent can't restore health
Auchenai High Priestess: Your spells and abilities that would restore health deals damage if used on enemies
Exarch Maladaar: ALL spells and abilities that would restore health deals damage instead
... Sure.
You might not have played all of them. But... damnit -- there's room for all of them within the same standard.
Some of these cards will still be objectively better most of the time. There's only ~20 decks or so that can be in the meta, no matter how you design it. So effectively it's still going to be either power creep or a weak expansion. Let's suppose for contradiction that you somehow magically make it work, what next? You can't go infinite like this.
"Some of them will be objectively better most of the time"...
Wait. What? Did balance become hard all of a sudden? In a digital game where they can patch balance on a weekly basis, and track millions of games played each day?
They're just lazy for not balancing the game better, and unlike Magic the Gathering, they can retcon cards literally all day long -- they could change any one card ten times in one single day, change a card 10 000 000 players own, without any effort. They've got Wizards of the Coast's wet dream come true -- and they're not even trying to enjoy the benefits.
Balance is hard, you evidently haven't tried to design a game before. And what does balance mean in the sense of Hearthstone anyways? Cards like Shredder and Boom get nerfed, then people complain about Challenger and Minibot, they get nerfed, people complain about combo and Voidcaller, they get nerfed, eventually every card will be wisps.
Blizzard has said it is their design philosophy not to change cards, this isn't laziness, this is them sticking to their guns because they can foresee the repercussions that other people don't.
Magic the Gathering has 1300 cards in the current standard -- and there's room for at least 2500 balanced cards in one standard set.
Functional duplicates of other cards at higher costs...
Ethereal Darkcaster: Change your hero power to Shadowform
Auchenai Necromancer: Your opponent can't restore health
Auchenai High Priestess: Your spells and abilities that would restore health deals damage if used on enemies
Exarch Maladaar: ALL spells and abilities that would restore health deals damage instead
... Sure.
You might not have played all of them. But... damnit -- there's room for all of them within the same standard.
Some of these cards will still be objectively better most of the time. There's only ~20 decks or so that can be in the meta, no matter how you design it. So effectively it's still going to be either power creep or a weak expansion. Let's suppose for contradiction that you somehow magically make it work, what next? You can't go infinite like this.
"Some of them will be objectively better most of the time"...
Wait. What? Did balance become hard all of a sudden? In a digital game where they can patch balance on a weekly basis, and track millions of games played each day?
They're just lazy for not balancing the game better, and unlike Magic the Gathering, they can retcon cards literally all day long -- they could change any one card ten times in one single day, change a card 10 000 000 players own, without any effort. They've got Wizards of the Coast's wet dream come true -- and they're not even trying to enjoy the benefits.
This. I cringe everytime someone spouts "B-but MTG does it too!" without realizing how different the two environments are.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When you dump something down the toilet it disappears while still existing in the sewers. Welcome to Wild mode, "it's not like they took our cards away".
While OP doesn't seem to even be arguing on the point of why they're doing Standard, I've come to be worried about it.
I fear after awhile you'll be left with the following kinds of players at any given time:
Pros playing standard
Rich people playing standard
New players who came in and ramped up on the current blocks
Old timers and rich people playing wild
So while this change was ostensibly made for new players to not be overwhelmed, they may still constantly cycle out unless they become pros or are rich. It's really hard to predict how it will play out -- those claiming they know bug me -- but this is what worries me at the moment.
This. I cringe everytime someone spouts "B-but MTG does it too!" without realizing how different the two environments are.
Elaborate on why HS is so different compared to other card games. Btw you do realise MtG has been played digitally since 2002 right?
All MTG games only copy existing paper cards. Digital does not mean that it is on a pc. It means that HS is unrestricted by any real cards and that they can do what ever they want. But instead the just refuse any attempt at balancing and even wait 6-8 Months to nerf clearly op cards. Which shows their incompetence in the matter.
pls refrain from using the "but but Magic!" argument ever again. It is getting old.
I totally agree with you about the fact Blizzard are slow to nerf/buff their game, which obviously should be a part of any game (regardless of its genre).
However the comparison to Magic is a valid one for me. MtG have been able to keep the game fresh for decades because they rotate out the old blocks. It's good for the meta and good for the players.
This. I cringe everytime someone spouts "B-but MTG does it too!" without realizing how different the two environments are.
Elaborate on why HS is so different compared to other card games. Btw you do realise MtG has been played digitally since 2002 right?
All MTG games only copy existing paper cards. Digital does not mean that it is on a pc. It means that HS is unrestricted by any real cards and that they can do what ever they want. But instead the just refuse any attempt at balancing and even wait 6-8 Months to nerf clearly op cards. Which shows their incompetence in the matter.
pls refrain from using the "but but Magic!" argument ever again. It is getting old.
If you change any parameter on a card, it is for all intents and purposes a new card. If you switch Spider Tank from a 3 mana 3/4 to a 3 mana 3/3 it is converted from a reasonable card (highly playable in a Arena or Mech decks) into unplayable jank. You cannot just wave a magic wand and "rebalance the game" by changing cards without destroying the integrity of people's collections. Since Blizzard is charging people money to build those collections, they are not going to be happy customers if all their good cards suddenly turn into jank.
This balancing situation is exactly like Magic, and exactly unlike pretty much every other video game genre, where there is a greater ability to tweak game parameters.
Since Blizzard is charging people money to build those collections, they are not going to be happy customers if all their good cards suddenly turn into jank.
Which is exactly what they did by throwing the aforementioned collections down the dumpster (=Wild).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When you dump something down the toilet it disappears while still existing in the sewers. Welcome to Wild mode, "it's not like they took our cards away".
So nobody have successfully taken up my challenge. Balance Naxx and GvG in such a way that most of TGT becomes viable, without killing (or severely reducing the appearance of) Naxx and GvG. If you argue nerfs are the way the go, here is your chance to prove it. If you argue that nerfs are the way to go, this is the first thing that needs to be done.
It's the internet. If we hypothetically 3-4 hours doing this, you'd probably shoot it down with a one-liner.
Anyways, there is a much more elegant solution: Cycle core and classic out of standard.
Then wild will be a true legacy mode, and you people who want to enjoy standard can do just that.
Since Blizzard is charging people money to build those collections, they are not going to be happy customers if all their good cards suddenly turn into jank.
Which is exactly what they did by throwing the aforementioned collections down the dumpster (=Wild).
Blizz - "We're adding a new format with a more frequently changing meta"
You - "So your throwing our old cards away?"
Blizz - "Nah, you can still play just as you are now,we're just adding a format where you can only use specific card sets"
You - "My cards are now worthless trash and your stealing our money"
Blizz - "Nah, you can still play just as you are now,we're just adding a format where you can only use specific card sets"
See, this is exactly the thing you people still fail to comprehend. We will no longer be able to play them "just as we are now" because Wild is not gonna be the same as today's ranked.
Wild is gonna be the bastard son of Casual+Brawl, a format where "everything goes" and that so long as it isn't 100% broken it will not see neither fixes nor preventive actions of any sort. Blizzard explicitly stated that any balance fix to this format will be "reactive" (meaning that they're not gonna put any thought into it beforehand and just see what happens after) unlike the format we're actually playing NOW where new cards are thought with older ones in mind (which will be Standard after the expansion, not Wild).
So good job being all "hyperbole and satire" when anyone else with common sense realizes that Wild is NOT gonna be the same as today's Ranked.
When you dump something down the toilet it disappears while still existing in the sewers. Welcome to Wild mode, "it's not like they took our cards away".
Blizz - "Nah, you can still play just as you are now,we're just adding a format where you can only use specific card sets"
See, this is exactly the thing you people still fail to comprehend. We will no longer be able to play them "just as we are now" because Wild is not gonna be the same as today's ranked.
Wild is gonna be the bastard son of Casual+Brawl, a format where "everything goes" and that so long as it isn't 100% broken it will not see neither fixes nor preventive actions of any sort. Blizzard explicitly stated that any balance fix to this format will be "reactive" (meaning that they're not gonna put any thought into it beforehand and just see what happens after) unlike the format we're actually playing NOW where new cards are thought with older ones in mind (which will be Standard after the expansion, not Wild).
So good job being all "hyperbole and satire" when anyone else with common sense realizes that Wild is NOT gonna be the same as today's Ranked.
You are complaining about Blizzard failing to balance Wild before the format even exists as a separate entity from Standard. That makes no sense whatsoever. Normally, people wait for others to make a mistake before starting to complain about it.
Wild is going to be today's ranked, plus one set, and a set of nerfs. Those nerfs will probably shake up the meta more than the addition of the set. So yeah, it will be different than today's ranked. So what?
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I don't understand how anyone can say the implementation of "Standard mode" is a bad thing. The OP says just remove the flavors and keep the balanced, but that would inevitably still lead to a stale meta game. Your cards aren't worthless, you can still use them, and if you argue that you won't be able to use them in tournaments, let me counter you with this: "If 0.5% of the player base in in Legend, then that's 99.5% of the player base that have no chance to win tournaments, let alone qualify for one." On top of that by making the classic and basic cards the foundation for the game, it ensures that new players will be able to catch up to veterans in a reasonable amount of time. It ensures that the meta for the tournament is constantly changing, and that new ideas and decks have more potential to change the aforementioned meta of that time. GvG has the most amount of RNG based core cards in the game, and based on expansions since then it seems blizz would like to move away from SO MUCH rng in a game that is already dependent on rng in the firstplace. The longest standing tcg's (such as mtg) don't have the sheer amount of random bs that can occur in a single match, the rng in the match should always be card draw, not "can I get Emperor out of a turn 2 unstable portal?"
Magic the Gathering has 1300 cards in the current standard -- and there's room for at least 2500 balanced cards in one standard set.
Functional duplicates of other cards at higher costs...
Ethereal Darkcaster: Change your hero power to Shadowform
Auchenai Necromancer: Your opponent can't restore health
Auchenai High Priestess: Your spells and abilities that would restore health deals damage if used on enemies
Exarch Maladaar: ALL spells and abilities that would restore health deals damage instead
...
Sure.
But... damnit -- there's room for all of them within the same standard.
Every time I log into hearthpwn I swear I feel a brain cell dying.
People who refuses to play aggro out of principle are even worse than people who play exclusively aggro.
One should seek to become a complete player and play all archetypes, including ones that he despises for whatever irrational reasons.
Wait. What?
Did balance become hard all of a sudden?
In a digital game where they can patch balance on a weekly basis, and track millions of games played each day?
They're just lazy for not balancing the game better, and unlike Magic the Gathering, they can retcon cards literally all day long -- they could change any one card ten times in one single day, change a card 10 000 000 players own, without any effort.
They've got Wizards of the Coast's wet dream come true -- and they're not even trying to enjoy the benefits.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
When you dump something down the toilet it disappears while still existing in the sewers. Welcome to Wild mode, "it's not like they took our cards away".
While OP doesn't seem to even be arguing on the point of why they're doing Standard, I've come to be worried about it.
I fear after awhile you'll be left with the following kinds of players at any given time:
So while this change was ostensibly made for new players to not be overwhelmed, they may still constantly cycle out unless they become pros or are rich. It's really hard to predict how it will play out -- those claiming they know bug me -- but this is what worries me at the moment.
When you dump something down the toilet it disappears while still existing in the sewers. Welcome to Wild mode, "it's not like they took our cards away".
When you dump something down the toilet it disappears while still existing in the sewers. Welcome to Wild mode, "it's not like they took our cards away".