Reprinting the same Cards every Rotation with different names and possible slightly different stats/effects.
Legacy of Loatheb: Summon a 5/5 Rotation. Your oppenent Spells cost 5 more next turn.
Very refreshing. ;)
And please don't tell me they won't reprint Cards with similar effects like Cards we now have. Just recently Trump made a Standard Malygos where he had to throw out his Antique Healbot saying that we might get a Card with a "similar" effect to replace the Antique Healbot. Of course we get one!!! Repair Bot: 4 Mana 4/4 Heal 5. If you win the Joust, Heal 10.
Wow, please share more of the new cards as you seem to be an insider or even developer. Someone said that before: If Blizzard really reprints cards at this stage of the game, it'll really be the best to quit now. I think there are enough ideas and new concepts to get a "fresh way" to play HS. Maybe there are a few similar cards but I don't think we'll get a new Boom, Belcher, Loatheb, Scientist,... THIS would really be embarrassing for Blizzard.
So, if you're right, I'm totally on your side. Until the new cards of the expansion are revealed and the oppsite is proven, we only can wait and see.
I think there will be a new card with a similar effect to Loatheb, such as 2 mana 2/2 opponents spells cost 2 more next turn. We need ways to disrupt our opponents next turn to slow hyper-aggressive decks down.
i never play magic because is so expensive, like all the people here, and like all people that play Hearthstone here....but this change...
pls nerf, you have a digital game and you can do easy, this game dont require a 100 dollar /year /person ...i and the most people dont play this if is the continue of Magic...comeback to magic and stop ruined our game pls
You do understand that a year from now, maybe two, this game would be super expensive if they stayed in the same system that we have now. Over time you would need multiple cards from multiple sets. That's a major problem, along side the immense power creep that would need to happen to get the new expansions on par with the older ones. Every 2 drop going up against mad scientist, knife juggler, haunted creeper, shielded mini bot. The only way to make people play with other cards is make better ones. So how about you take away that eternal competition in one format and leave it in another? Well then you have the perfect plan to set hearthstone on a great path for longevity.
Don't even try to use logic. People that want to cry will never stop crying :)
That they have to manage more and more cards and have to spend more money to get an overall better collection is not coming to their mind. That they don't need the old adventures (and you really need Naxxramas in this meta, as it is so strong) is not coming to their mind. They save a lot of Gold with that. They don't care. That they could theoretically dust the not needed collection anymore which saves them a lot of gold in form of packs is not coming to their mind.
And the players having a full collection still would only buy new packs, that is what I do. Nothing changes for me beside a new meta. A new meta is always great (okay, Secret Paladin was not, but even with these changes those get weaker as Avenge is gone and that is inane) as it stops the game from becoming boring the more often it changes.
Blizz did everything right and people crying about blizzard is definetly nothing new :D
Digital or not, there is not way to continuously release cards strong enough to see play without either rotating or banning the old ones. At least this way we know when things are leaving.
its pretty simple.
You are very wrong, it is possible. There were CCGs that went for years without banning, artificial formats, reprints and nerfs/buffs. But sadly this requires developers to have a brain and actually put some work in their design not just slap us with Dr. X every expansion.
As an example I'll point to a Decipher's Star Wars CCG. Year 1995 first printing Premiere Edition. Fast forward to 2001 and cards from this Premiere Edition are still used in a top competitive play. And I remind you it was not a digital card game and still they did it without a single ban/nerf/format through all those years. Yet the HS developers cant handle it after only 2 years even while HS being a digital game, where you can ban/nerf adjust cards all you want without need for reprinting. Its just pathetic.
To clarify something, I'm not against formats in HS. If this is a price for cards like scientist, shredder, boom etc to go away I'll gladly pay it. But this is just a very shitty work on behalf of HS developers. I praise Star Wars developers for creating the best CCG there ever was. HS developers should learn from them. And shame on you WotC for destroying SW I'll never forgive you that.
Do I understand correctly that you think the rolemodel for Hearthstone should be a card game that had the same staples over 6 years of playing and that eventually died? And simultaneously you want cards like shredder, boom and mad scientist gone? I am confused, because in the SW-TCG it seems that they kept their shredders and Booms. And yet, you don't want them in Hearthstone. And yet again, you want that Hearthstone is like the SW-TCG...
What if a new player wants to play Wild? Well..., that will be super expensive, because the amount of Dust he will need to grind is impossible to believe for a new player...or if he wants a Collection of the old Cards? Blizzard makes that impossible.
Another complaint about a theoretical problem, which will probably not even exist.
Yes, it will be more expensive to get a full collection. But that was already an expensive waste of money in the first place. You can build all the top decks without collecting every card in the game.
New players will mainly play Standard. They will have less of a barrier to entry, and that is where all the other new players will be. They will not be ready for Wild until they have a collection, and learn how to play.
But once they are ready, it will not be hard to get into Wild. If the decks were not nerfed, you could build Freeze Mage and combo Druid for about the same cost for both formats. Aggro shaman will be the same. Once we know how the new metas shape up, people will write articles on how to transition a Standard deck to Wild. You only need 30 cards to build a deck, and a lot of those cards are still likely to be Classic. It will be a lot easier to build Tempo Mage for a FTP account once you can craft Flamewaker.
If all you need is Dr. Boom, it is a lot cheaper to craft him than it is to buy GvG packs until you pull him. Notice how every beginner guide tells people to craft Dr. Boom, not to buy GvG packs until you get him?
Ah the good ol Mtg does it argument. A good opportunity to use the ctrl+v option:
Since all the people are constantly repeating the mantra of "there was no other way", "MTG does it so it must be gods will" and other bullshit over and over again without actually using their brain I am going to make a list now that I can copy paste all over, to save time:
This game is not MTG. Mtg does Standard mode, since it is a PHYSICAL CARDGAME. There you cant buff/nerf cards easily. So it makes sense to do this in MTG but not HS that is DIGITAL ONLY!
Instead of Standard mode we could have monthly buffs and nerfs. Since this is a DIGITAL card game, blizzard could have solved a lot of MTGs problems by simply BUFFING and NERFING cards. But instead they went the "basically ban" route from the beginning (I mean Warsong Commander might as well say: can not be played now) So we don't even know how this game might look like if there was someone in chargethat can do slight stat adjustment on a regular basis.
ALL HS expansions so far are intertwined and cant be simply ripped out without leaving an unplayable mess. All I need to say is Gorillabot A-3. There is no point in getting rid of 2 expansions when EVERY SINGLE expansion has been made to synergize with the previous and next ones. Expansions would have needed to be made in a way so that they are enclosed in themselves so they don't invalidate the next expansion if they leave rotation.
There are plenty of ways Standard could have been implemented differently. They could only ban certain cards and not entire sets. Or ban sets but convert key cards that are important to basic set. Or they could throw all now important cards into a new "basic" set which then would be the set that stays for ever.
Wild mode will not be balanced, watched or played. It is basically a bigger brawl mode. Right after release people will still play wildmode but after a few expansions there will be more and more people that dont have ALL the cards, so wild will become a no go area. Just like Deck construction brawls are unplayable now for new players if they require some really aweful niche card that no one ever uses.
Standard will also be the only mode that is allowed for tournaments, gives points or is displayed to your friends etc. So much for "we care for both modes". No, Wild is clearly second typ citizen and will be treated as such.
If a new player wants to play Naxxramas encounters he can no longer buy them... and subsequently there is no guarantee that blizzard will allow players that already own Naxx to play them for ever or if shut it down to save server capacity.
People may refer to a "rotation" but infact your cards are GONE. Maybe in the future you will get a 3/3 mech that restores 8 to your hero again... doesn't mean that you can use healbot though. You will have to buy a SECOND healbot and play with that one instead. But in wild you now an have an ultra heal deck with 4 healbots. But I guess that is not a "1-2 turn kill combo" so blizzard doesn't give a shit about balancing something like that.
Balancing as a whole will probably cease to exist (even more than currently). Why would Blizzard bother to nerf cards now? Not only in wild but in standard? They just need to WAIT a year and they are gone anyway. That is about the time frame Blizzard takes to nerf stuff anyway, if ever. So did you enjoy waiting 8 months for Undertaker nerf? Have fun with stuff like that x10.
Arena is going to stay unbalanced as ever. They cant even be arsed to balance wild. So why would they ever bother with card rarities or class balance in this mode? Just Paladin and mage forever. Not to mention that broken combos that can occure in wild might even be worse in Arena (Murloc Knight and Kvaldir Raider are cards that on their own win games in arena for example).
Finally If you want to compare this game so badly with other games, then how about League of Legends instead? Both are F2p,in both you collect something (champions/cards), both are probably biggest of their genre and mostly they are both DIGITAL. So what would be if LoL were to ban all older champions form ranked solo Q? You cant play with all your champions you bought skins (golden cards) for competitively any more. But I guess you can play twisted treeline if you are a masochist. But even then you cant really play for long, since the new champions from the new set are not balanced to be beaten with your old ones, so you can't really play there either. Suddenly Standard does sound kinda like a scam doesn't it? Unlike HS, LoL does balance and update older champions, game mechanics, runes, talents, basically EVERYTHING in the game. Don't you think that blizzard could do some buffs end nerfs instead of just banning everything.
So if people please could give some actual good arguments for standards as opposed to copy pasting the same "but but MAGIC does it" over and over again, that would be nice.
Ok, I'll bite this:
1- You are right, Hearthstone is not MTG, but since its concept it uses almost all the structure from MGT, in the beta I hear a lot of explanation for new players using reference like "its like mtg, but simpler". If not compare with magic, compare with what???
2- You are using the same way Riot do with LoL, a game way different from Hearthstone. If you want I tell all the reasons, in my opinion, using this method is impossible, I'll post here, but will be a looong post;
3- Yes, so far some cards will be awful and all sets are king of intertwined, so is expected next sets will not be like that anymore, or again, like MTG, when two or three sets are interwined, they all move out at the same time.
4- You put a lot of ideas here, and I like most of it. My favorite is to pass good staples from nax or GvG to standard. My guess (and my hope) they didn't do it YET because of the massive changes happening, and in the future they aplly this idea instead of reprinting of making "loathebs" around.
5- This is YOUR opinion, based in some experience you had or something. You cannot say this will happen for sure. I guess if wild starts to be horrible and people jumping out, they will change it. The same way they are implementing a idea from MTG, in magic this problem you are stating do not happen.
6- Kind of agree with you here. It cost nothing to put both ranked displayed for your friends list, and I really don't understand why not. About tournaments, I wanted both, honesty.
7 - Agree here as well. I really don't understand why taking out older sets and adventures....
8 - Almost like 5, it is your opinion only, if this happen, you can complain, but now it only a speculation.
9- Same as above.
10- You are saying here arena will be a mess because they already are not able to balance wild, and saying all that BEFORE the changes happens. If you mix very valid points whit completely guesses like that, some people will simply ignore all you say, what is unfortunate, you have VERY valid concerns here.
11- You say comparing Hearthstone with magic, a similar card game, is not valid but is comparing with a MOBA is? What both have similar, they are digital and kind of F2P? Again, if you (or someone) really wants, I post a reason why, in MY opinion, this idea never will work, but will be very long post.
To resume, you put 11 observations, but only three of those (numbers 2,3,11) are a complaining about the format, and the rest is complaining about you lack of confidence in Blizzard or in decisions they made that is not related of the format.
Please don't say to people to "use the brain" like you are superior than most, this only make you look like a fool, at best.
Digital or not, there is not way to continuously release cards strong enough to see play without either rotating or banning the old ones. At least this way we know when things are leaving.
its pretty simple.
You are very wrong, it is possible. There were CCGs that went for years without banning, artificial formats, reprints and nerfs/buffs. But sadly this requires developers to have a brain and actually put some work in their design not just slap us with Dr. X every expansion.
As an example I'll point to a Decipher's Star Wars CCG. Year 1995 first printing Premiere Edition. Fast forward to 2001 and cards from this Premiere Edition are still used in a top competitive play. And I remind you it was not a digital card game and still they did it without a single ban/nerf/format through all those years. Yet the HS developers cant handle it after only 2 years even while HS being a digital game, where you can ban/nerf adjust cards all you want without need for reprinting. Its just pathetic.
To clarify something, I'm not against formats in HS. If this is a price for cards like scientist, shredder, boom etc to go away I'll gladly pay it. But this is just a very shitty work on behalf of HS developers. I praise Star Wars developers for creating the best CCG there ever was. HS developers should learn from them. And shame on you WotC for destroying SW I'll never forgive you that.
So you're a fan boy of a game that died after six years, and can name exactly one game that didn't end up using formats. That game has been dead for more than a decade and only went 6 years.
For the record, MTG went longer than that before they invented Type 2.
Magic the Gathering has 1300 cards in the current standard -- and there's room for at least 2500 balanced cards in one standard set.
Functional duplicates of other cards at higher costs...
Ethereal Darkcaster: Change your hero power to Shadowform
Auchenai Necromancer: Your opponent can't restore health
Auchenai High Priestess: Your spells and abilities that would restore health deals damage if used on enemies
Exarch Maladaar: ALL spells and abilities that would restore health deals damage instead
... Sure.
You might not have played all of them. But... damnit -- there's room for all of them within the same standard.
Some of these cards will still be objectively better most of the time. There's only ~20 decks or so that can be in the meta, no matter how you design it. So effectively it's still going to be either power creep or a weak expansion. Let's suppose for contradiction that you somehow magically make it work, what next? You can't go infinite like this.
"Some of them will be objectively better most of the time"...
Wait. What? Did balance become hard all of a sudden? In a digital game where they can patch balance on a weekly basis, and track millions of games played each day?
They're just lazy for not balancing the game better, and unlike Magic the Gathering, they can retcon cards literally all day long -- they could change any one card ten times in one single day, change a card 10 000 000 players own, without any effort. They've got Wizards of the Coast's wet dream come true -- and they're not even trying to enjoy the benefits.
Balance is hard, you evidently haven't tried to design a game before.
Balance is not hard. I don't understand why people keep on saying this.
It's especially easy when you can trial and error without prejudice.
And what does balance mean in the sense of Hearthstone anyways? Cards like Shredder and Boom get nerfed, then people complain about Challenger and Minibot, they get nerfed, people complain about combo and Voidcaller, they get nerfed, eventually every card will be wisps.
Blizzard has said it is their design philosophy not to change cards, this isn't laziness, this is them sticking to their guns because they can foresee the repercussions that other people don't.
Balance essentially means "not losing customers" to disgusting card interactions and imbalances. Like Big Game Hunter on a legitimately balanced 7 attack minion -- and not a blatantly OP 0 mana cost Molten Giant.
The balance issue is multifaceted:
1: Guaranteed mana and the lack of options for clearing or handling low cost minions without investing heavily in early game cards that become useless against late game cards: Hellfire takes care of most earlier drops... But no minion can reliably mop up 3-4 early game minions, unless it's a deathrattle or battlecry minion.
2: The curve... If I were to design this game, I'd simply make the lowest cost minions START at 3 mana -- and have 1-2 mana be a select few fringe playable cards. Players start at 2 mana. The curve 1-2-3-4-5-6-7... 1 mana minions are 1/7th the cost of 7 mana minions... 1 is 1/7th of the investment that 7 is... 1-2 mana cards should be cantrips. Zombie Chow would be a 2 cost card.
3: The cards are stuck to an extremely strict stat budget - that they completely and utterly ignore in SOME cases; Dr. 6, Dr. 7, Dr. 8, Dr. 4, Mad Scientist, Shielded Minibot... It's fine. It's fine to break the budget. But do so consistently, and let all classes have different prices for breaking the budget. Paladins can have cheap divine shields and OP undercosted secrets -- but not shit like Mysterious Challenger. Neutral can have powerful battlecry and deathrattle minions, but not blatant win condtions that get played in 90% of decks, like Dr. 7. Neutral minions should be filler you add because there's nothing else that fits in the format, and I'd love to see the majority of a deck be class cards.
4: Impacted by the cost of the cards, is the problem of card draw. Any deck that seeks to win through non-minion win conditions have to use excessive amounts of card draw to draw the cards they need. And minion-centric decks that are not warlocks often end up without cards in hand, because they draw too many minions with low costs. Arena often ends up in topdeck wars. I'd love for the minimum hand size to be 3. And for card costs and minions to be balanced so that you don't autowin from spamming all your cards. A part of the reason I want a minimum hand size of 3 to start off each turn, is choice. I hate how often you're stuck with 1-2 cards in hand and no choices, unless you've got draw engines... which let you draw 5+ cards a turn when winning...
5: Hearthstone Control versus Control too often feels like a game of War: It's all randomness of the draw, until the winner is the person who's got a threat left after all removal has been played, and all other minions are dead. And by the gods -- removal is too predictable, and low cost removal is too good versus high cost threats.
And while they stick to their guns, some of their fans leave because of the lack of variety. Some because they simply don't attempt to balance the game as fast as they could've done with the pure digital nature. Some lose interest cecause their favorite WoW characters are missing or unplayable. Malorne. Prophet Velen. Sapphiron. ...
Other cards from the Naxxramas zone I'd like to see, in addition to Sapphiron: Bony Construct / Bone Golem Soul Weaver Vigilant Shade: This gets the Shade of Naxxramas card text, and Shade of Naxxramas becomes something like: Battlecry: Deal 5 damage split randomly across all enemies Tomb Horror
blizzard scammed those of us who paid for cards. Period. The cycle out is a healthy need, the measures they took to sink wild (rank in friend list, announce balance only for standard, take old sets out of the shop, competitive scene only standard) is simply an insult
I do not want your version of "balance". Even if we are to assume that it is actually "balanced" (which it isn't, as it nerfs aggro too much), it isn't fun. It will kill the game faster than whatever Team 5 can ever come up with. Both Wizards and Blizzard know that they have to push the envelope so there will be exciting cards. Inevitably, a few cards get pushed way too far. Still, that is preferable compared to the sterile lifelessness of your proposition.
An aside about Dr. Boom and him being overbudget: How would you have know it is OP before hand? Most pros back then didn't think so, and in fact compared him rather unfavourably to Troggzor.
I do not want your version of "balance". Even if we are to assume that it is actually "balanced" (which it isn't, as it nerfs aggro too much), it isn't fun. It will kill the game faster than whatever Team 5 can ever come up with. Both Wizards and Blizzard know that they have to push the envelope so there will be exciting cards. Inevitably, a few cards get pushed way too far. Still, that is preferable compared to the sterile lifelessness of your proposition.
An aside about Dr. Boom and him being overbudget: How would you have know it is OP before hand? Most pros back then didn't think so, and in fact compared him rather unfavourably to Troggzor.
You should quote the comment you were responding to.
What I gather from following this thread is that most of the commentors have no idea how to make a fun card game, let alone a balanced one.
But why do you insist on acting like Wild isnt going to be a thing? and saying they wont balance it? The opposite has been stated.
Once they get past 12 most people realize that what PR marketers say doesn't matter at all. Facts, actions and previous history does.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When you dump something down the toilet it disappears while still existing in the sewers. Welcome to Wild mode, "it's not like they took our cards away".
Hahahahaha, man free to play players are just funny kids. Why would a company make a purely free to play game??? Im sorry i just dont see a problem with them wanting to earn money ad at the same time keep things fresh It is boring for a card game to have the same things happen time and time again, so this is a good change.
BTW if you want, you can still play for free in wild......
So what facts, actions, and previous history are you using? We have NO reason to believe they are lying to us.
Clearly you don't, but people above 12 with a working brain do, hence why everyone's angry.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When you dump something down the toilet it disappears while still existing in the sewers. Welcome to Wild mode, "it's not like they took our cards away".
That they have to manage more and more cards and have to spend more money to get an overall better collection is not coming to their mind. That they don't need the old adventures (and you really need Naxxramas in this meta, as it is so strong) is not coming to their mind. They save a lot of Gold with that. They don't care. That they could theoretically dust the not needed collection anymore which saves them a lot of gold in form of packs is not coming to their mind.
And the players having a full collection still would only buy new packs, that is what I do. Nothing changes for me beside a new meta. A new meta is always great (okay, Secret Paladin was not, but even with these changes those get weaker as Avenge is gone and that is inane) as it stops the game from becoming boring the more often it changes.
Blizz did everything right and people crying about blizzard is definetly nothing new :D
I don't understand why people keep on saying this.
It's especially easy when you can trial and error without prejudice.
Balance essentially means "not losing customers" to disgusting card interactions and imbalances.
Like Big Game Hunter on a legitimately balanced 7 attack minion -- and not a blatantly OP 0 mana cost Molten Giant.
The balance issue is multifaceted:
Hellfire takes care of most earlier drops...
But no minion can reliably mop up 3-4 early game minions, unless it's a deathrattle or battlecry minion.
2: The curve... If I were to design this game, I'd simply make the lowest cost minions START at 3 mana -- and have 1-2 mana be a select few fringe playable cards. Players start at 2 mana.
The curve 1-2-3-4-5-6-7...
1 mana minions are 1/7th the cost of 7 mana minions...
1 is 1/7th of the investment that 7 is... 1-2 mana cards should be cantrips. Zombie Chow would be a 2 cost card.
3: The cards are stuck to an extremely strict stat budget - that they completely and utterly ignore in SOME cases; Dr. 6, Dr. 7, Dr. 8, Dr. 4, Mad Scientist, Shielded Minibot... It's fine. It's fine to break the budget. But do so consistently, and let all classes have different prices for breaking the budget. Paladins can have cheap divine shields and OP undercosted secrets -- but not shit like Mysterious Challenger.
Neutral can have powerful battlecry and deathrattle minions, but not blatant win condtions that get played in 90% of decks, like Dr. 7.
Neutral minions should be filler you add because there's nothing else that fits in the format, and I'd love to see the majority of a deck be class cards.
A part of the reason I want a minimum hand size of 3 to start off each turn, is choice. I hate how often you're stuck with 1-2 cards in hand and no choices, unless you've got draw engines... which let you draw 5+ cards a turn when winning...
5: Hearthstone Control versus Control too often feels like a game of War:
It's all randomness of the draw, until the winner is the person who's got a threat left after all removal has been played, and all other minions are dead. And by the gods -- removal is too predictable, and low cost removal is too good versus high cost threats.
And while they stick to their guns, some of their fans leave because of the lack of variety.
Some because they simply don't attempt to balance the game as fast as they could've done with the pure digital nature.
Some lose interest cecause their favorite WoW characters are missing or unplayable.
Malorne.
Prophet Velen.
Sapphiron.
...
Other cards from the Naxxramas zone I'd like to see, in addition to Sapphiron:
Bony Construct / Bone Golem
Soul Weaver
Vigilant Shade: This gets the Shade of Naxxramas card text, and Shade of Naxxramas becomes something like: Battlecry: Deal 5 damage split randomly across all enemies
Tomb Horror
i quit the very same day they announced those changes
i dont want blizzard to rob me for cards and expansions i payed for with money and/or time
I do not want your version of "balance". Even if we are to assume that it is actually "balanced" (which it isn't, as it nerfs aggro too much), it isn't fun. It will kill the game faster than whatever Team 5 can ever come up with. Both Wizards and Blizzard know that they have to push the envelope so there will be exciting cards. Inevitably, a few cards get pushed way too far. Still, that is preferable compared to the sterile lifelessness of your proposition.
An aside about Dr. Boom and him being overbudget: How would you have know it is OP before hand? Most pros back then didn't think so, and in fact compared him rather unfavourably to Troggzor.
People who refuses to play aggro out of principle are even worse than people who play exclusively aggro.
One should seek to become a complete player and play all archetypes, including ones that he despises for whatever irrational reasons.
What I gather from following this thread is that most of the commentors have no idea how to make a fun card game, let alone a balanced one.
But why do you insist on acting like Wild isnt going to be a thing? and saying they wont balance it? The opposite has been stated.
When you dump something down the toilet it disappears while still existing in the sewers. Welcome to Wild mode, "it's not like they took our cards away".
You could... you know... just play Wild...
Building Quirky Decks Every Week, Loving Life at Rank 15!
Hahahahaha, man free to play players are just funny kids. Why would a company make a purely free to play game??? Im sorry i just dont see a problem with them wanting to earn money ad at the same time keep things fresh It is boring for a card game to have the same things happen time and time again, so this is a good change.
BTW if you want, you can still play for free in wild......
When you dump something down the toilet it disappears while still existing in the sewers. Welcome to Wild mode, "it's not like they took our cards away".