Hello, so this is my first actual post on this forum, and I have been stalking for a fair bit. Decided it was time to speak up!
I have seen a lot of topics concerning multiple facets of Hearthstone posted here, and its great to see all this varying content to "learn up" on. There is a lot of discussion about balance, deck choices, viability, curves, card strength, ect. Of the many posts, I have seen a fair bit of "Secret Pally" posts, be good, bad, or the ugly. And I think I have heard almost all of the outcries and defenses to the decks that seem to be very relevant this meta.
A bit about me for those interested: I have been messing around with HS for about a year+ now, just getting into it "hardcore" over the past 3 months when I broke down and bought all the expansions (very good investment, and the Heroic modes were a blast as well as a learning experience that was well worth each penny spent in terms of time spent and enjoyment had), DE'd a golden Van Cleef for Dr. Balanced, figured out that I had the best chance succeeding if I devoted my dust and packs to filling out a secret pally (after doing tons of research/ deck checking for what missing/available cards I had) to get started in ranked. I started with an aggro rogue, and as I did well, such as 7 game win streaks, checking all my mistakes and errors every match; I ran up against a wall at rank 14-ish with control decks breaking my tempo hardcore and very easily. I learned how important board control was quickly, as well as a majority of the other winning "cheese" and what to watch out for. I finally completed my secret pally deck (cardwise/dustwise, had Tirion and only missing 3 epics) and had massive win streaks at the rank I was at (in hindsight, I would have lost a majority of them if the players I fought against knew how to counter it at all) and I never saw many secret pally decks at 15+, ever, so I didn't know much about their application either. I climbed to I believe rank 10 that first season. Next season I decided I wanted to get that rank 5 loot chest to help my deck/dust pile out, and with effort and "skill", I did. Come this season, the grind to rank 5 was a bit harder with more secret pally counters, but still doable. Overall that is my story and where I am at. *sorry for the TL;DR paragraph*
From my experience, secret pally is not a guaranteed win, even with MC turn 6, or a well played start, or against a "non-counter". You can always get a bad start with a good finish, a good start curve with a bad endgame, a tough opponent start with no ability to combo later due to board control loss, or an amazing start hard countered with a few good board clears/smart opponent counterplays. By no means is it overpowered in the terms of always being competitive, but it has many combos/minions that require the opponent to have some sort of answer/counter in order to make the high value options you have into less than ideal options. Control decks with counterplays and delays hurt hard, while aggro can get up in your face fast if you don't have the options to trade well early, while combos can come out of nowhere due to the game lasting a bit longer then it should have. It is however, very much consistent, with very good combo, one-card/one-turn options that make the mid-game tempo very easy to take in your favor. Without any thought, I would never beat my way past rank 10, since misplays (you may think secret pally can't misplay, o boy, you are wrong) would end a game there. My hand would be very predictable at that rank and onward, and unless I had the godtier mana curve (which any hand can get and cause a free win), opponents had the opportunities to hard counter me easily.
Certain decks popped up that beat my face in, causing me to look at those setups and see what that new deck I never saw was (a great learning experience) such as doomsayer/conc/equality/wildpyro control/carddraw/combo murloc pally (what a counter if played right!) and boardclear justicar(or)stalagg+shadowflame warlock. I learned fast that I could be countered, and put in to situations that would hurt badly if I played "perfectly", and was forced to play sub-par with limitations to avoid getting hard countered for doing the "right move" on curve. I was predictable at higher rankings with this deck, which made it that much easier for control decks to take advantage of me with a good hand vs. their bad hands. In no way was getting past rank 10 easy or brainless, but also in no way was getting to rank 10 any difficulty or highly thought intensive.
I have come to the conclusion that there is a handicap due to 1. Knowledge of how Secret pally and their variations work among the majority of the playerbase (more focused on low-card collection/low dust players or lower skilled players) and/or 2. Knowledge of how to counter or play around Secret pally curve to take advantage of the consistency of their playstyle and/or 3. Weak options to the majority of other classes in terms of countering the early-game minion board advantage with consistency/efficiency while also playing into that hand's overall meta correctly.
First, knowledge comes with both experience and devotion (this word was chosen instead of dedication or understanding due to relevance to the issue). You cannot teach a playerbase that is ignorant that they need to "get gud" at a game to be highly successful compared to the rest by any means. The fact that there is no initiative to learn or improve is the direct cause of this problem in the first place, and cannot be solved with a nerf, buff, change to meta, ect. Without 1. (Experience) and 2. (Devotion), no player will improve at this game; experience comes with time, but devotion takes both initiative and drive, which the majority of "gamers in general" (in my experience) lack the most. We cannot change this fact, and this will be what separates top tier from average players.
Second, how to counter specific decks, namely the secret pally in this thread, is an issue at hand when dealing with top tier decks. How easy is it to counter, how consistent, how much thought do you have to put into your moves, how efficient is your deck mid game vs. theirs, do you have the answers or can you come up with them down the line to their threats. Do you have to play for the long haul and burn them out, or do you push aggressively and take advantage of your lead. These are some of the questions you are going to be asking yourself when you play vs. any deck, but how do we do this vs. secret pally? The best way is to 1. have the deck to counter 2. know how to improvise counters if you don't actually have a hard counter and 3. play to your strengths if you cannot correctly counter effectively. At this moment, it seems that secret pally decks have very limited hard counters due to the meta of top tier decks, yet soft counters are abundant and can literally turn into hard counters if played correctly. In conclusion, yes, there are limited hard counters as of this meta to shut out a secret pally at every turn, but improvised counters due to smart thinking and application (with a little luck too :P) will be able to turn the odds in your favor.
Third, the weak early game of other classes is a major issue in terms of Secret pally prevalence, namely shielded minibot, secretkeeper synergy, muster for battle (+knife juggler), sticky shredders, truesilvers, concencrations, avenges and/or that pesky 2/1 popping up and denying you board control for 1 mana. Their are many VERY low mana cost combos also that are a pain to deal with (redemption+minibot only on the field til turn 4, redemption 1. juggler 2. muster 3. shredder 4.) as well as turning the 1/1 2 mana early game dump into +3/+2 minions instead of just being a wasted turn. The options available early game are profound, and the synergy to the deck seems to be too good to be true. The mana curve plays out nicely, even though it seems that it would never work. The answers other classes have to this lineup are sub-optimal to hard counter it, but can prove to be superior in many circumstances. The stronger options that these classes have to counter the early game oppression would cut into the deck viability overall, vs. multiple other decks for starters, as well as change the design of what that deck was intended for. Overall, low mana, early game minion dominance/ spell synergy is hands down Pally all day, and other classes have to deal with it.
Summary and Conclusion:
Now that what I believe to be the issues with Secret Pally in this meta to be brought to light (my opinions of course), we come to the solution proposed. It has nothing to do with knowledgebase of the players, card nerfs, card buffs, deck revisions, new counters, ect. It has to do with the one thing that is causing this issue in the first place. Strong decks being strong. How do we fix this issue? We, as a community, DON'T. The deck will be strong, the counters will counter, the cards will be high value, the curve will fit nicely. What is needed does not come from us, but from DEVELOPERS! Yes, I said it, but how do they do it or what the hell do you mean?
New card options do what? Create new decks! New decks that have different strengths and new weaknesses. New cards to fill the spots that certain classes are lacking in comparison to their counterparts. That 2/2 shielded minibot (singular example) is too much to pass up on a Pally and is creating high value from low cost? Introducing similar options to other classes, which can be used in other Strong decks being strong will help ease issues created from our current meta, in fact, any meta for that matter. Overall, deck strength is not based solely on the deck being used, but also against the multiple decks it faces. A strong deck cannot be dominate strong when other options that rival it exist for multiple classes.
Finally, the solution, NEW OPTIONS FOR MULTIPLE CLASSES IN TERMS OF CARD VARIETY i.e. new Expansions or Adventures! When will this happen? In time. Do we have control over this? Nope, not really. Can we be heard about how we would like to see the meta change? Most likely yes. Can we bring valid issues to light and propose future solutions? For sure!
To start, a question to all who read this very long post (and thank you much for reading my very first community excerpt!), what solutions in your class decks would you like to see to combat this current meta (not specifically secret pally, but you get the idea) from future card releases?
Sorry for the No TL;DR, since, this has a lot of complex thoughts about the topic, and would not summarize well at all in a few sentences. If anything consider the TL;DR the SUMMARY and CONCLUSION section.
For those who did read my thoughts and experiences relating to this topic, thank you! And yes, it is a hazardous monstrosity in terms of word count!
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no likes, and may God have mercy on your soul.
I believe that Mysterious Challenger is fine for a very strong deck, yes. If Mysterious challenger was not strong, or Avenge was not strong, or Shielded Minibot was not strong; then yes, this deck would be very weak.
I wish, as much as you probably, for new content to be released, and new decks to be formulated that are SUPER STRONG. Lots of them, tons of them, so many super strong decks that you can't figure out which super strong deck is the strongest for the many classes there are!
But, that takes time, and balance, and is not going to happen immediately, hell, it may never happen... but one can dream right?
Class synergy and strong cards are what every class needs, you could call it powercreep, balance, progressive card influx; but at the end of the day, the goal would be to create competitive options that have overpowered strengths countered by other overpowered strengths. This may be very hard to accomplish on the development level, but I personally feel that this playstyle would be very engaging, win or lose.
And in the end, I believe the best "nerf" to MC, as well as Secret Pally in general, would be a buff in terms of COMPETITIVE options to all classes with new cards.
Edit: Hell, I believe that a small nerf to MC + new competitive options introduced may be the right way to go too, but in no means will a nerf to MC (unless massive) change our current meta.
Powercreep will eventually kill this game. As the wall between new players and old players slowly adds up, the amount of new players coming in will drop at some point it will die. Not saying this will happen soon, just that it will happen.
While I agree with you that Nerfs shouldn't go directly to the Mysterious Challenger himself, You have to realize that all Classes are not created equal. Giving each class an amazing 2 Drop would ruin what makes Classes the perfect imbalance compared to Paladins, Sure Paladins have amazing Minions, but they have the Worst spells in the game. I can name only 3 off the top of my head that actually receive play.
Now how do we circumvent the Paladins overall minion-aggression due to How many threats the deck can pull out? Easily enough: Just give Class specific tools to deal with them.
WARRIOR: In a really good spot but would need something to deal with Divine shields maybe a new card similar to Bouncing Blade or a Death's Bite or something as simple as a Blood Knight. Secrets shouldn't be an issue as they have minions that are amazing at Chump-blocking them.
WARLOCK: I think Warlock (especially its Aggro variants) can handle Secret Paladin okayish. but may need a little Secret removal, Maybe something like Flare or a Kezan Mystic + Brann Bronzebeard combination?
HUNTER: I think is OK, Flare + 5 Drop or 4 Drop is an Okay turn, will definitely make you sad you can't play Highmane on curve, but you gotta make sacrifices, They definitely don't need anymore cards to handle Secrets.
PRIEST: I think Priest will need some form of Early Removal or a Buff that allows you to contend the board similar to Velen's Chosen
MAGE: Now a Kirin Tor Mage and Ethereal Arcanist are Nowhere near enough Secret synergy that Paladin has, I think Mage needs a Secret or two to handle the Turn 6 Situation. Something similar to Unsummon(from MTG) or maybe a board wipe.
DRUID: They actually already have the Tools necessary, but people don't want to run them. Things like Poison Seeds + Starfall make most Paladins sad.
ROGUE: they are probably in the best spot save for the Secret removal, which is stupidly surprising because they're a Rogue. They should be able to remove alot of other things.
SHAMAN: This class already suffers from a Crisis, but Removal isn't one of them, Elemental Destruction + 3 Drop is an amazing board reset.
PALADIN: Moot.
The Problem here isn't: Is this Best in Slot? what we need is Options for Best in Slot, Unfortunately we're in one of the earliest forms of Hearthstone so we don't have a lot of those instances.
I'll start, how about a solution to the 2/2 minibot from the perspective of a, say hunter. Adding a 2 drop that steals ALL Divine shields and if stolen applies them to that minion at say 1/3 or 2/1 and make it a Mech. How about a Warrior 5 drop that makes the next weapon or minion played cost 3 more from either player, and has a 4/5 body. (these are random stats off the top of my head as of right now)
Options like this, which are not pigeonholed to counter specific classes in particular, would be more tools to fight current meta dominate decks, as well as possible viable substitutions for current cards in all decks.
And I agree with your statement that we are in one of the earliest forms of Hearthstone right now, even after how long it has actually been around.
@kazinova - Well reading all the current secret pally posts, not once did I see what I believed to be the counter to them addressed, which would be the introduction of future cards, which would not directly "counter" particular decks, but create the next new meta we long for, which hopefully has many top decks competing neck to neck for which one is more "OP", instead of one or two being blatantly dominant in the meta. Just wanted to get my LENGTHY opinion out there :P
Basically you're saying that Mysterious Challenger is fine and that we just have to wait for more powercreep on other classes to counter it, is that so ? I didn't read everything but if that really is your point, well... you're mad.
A 10 value 7 mana neutral legendary, and a 12 value 6 mana paladin epic weren't enough ? You want more powercreep ? (that's what "variety" means in your post I think)
It's time for a good old nerf, period. In a game where warsong commander is too strong there's no way mysterious challenger can be legit, this shit is stronger than Tirion (considered one of the best legs in the game). No debate, no "solutions", just nerf.
This. The solution to an OP card like MC is not creating more OP cards - then we'll just continue to miserable cycle of begging for a nerf on whatever the "cancer" deck du jour is. It will also continue to make it harder for newer / FTP players to get into the game, which is bad for everyone in the long run.
There are several reasonable ways to nerf Secret Pally that will let it remain a viable deck but bring it down a peg or two so that it isn't completely OP. With that said, we are talking about the Hearthstone devs, so I fully expect it to be nerfed into oblivion Buzzard and Warsong style after another 3 to 6 months of player outcry.
In no means have I said I want more OP cards more powerful than Mysterious Challenger to exist for every class, let alone one class.
The problem is that cards which provide the synergy MC does which makes the current Secret Pally even work, do not exist for the most part. Options to hard-counter Secret Pally are not prevalent, and even if there are hard-counters, they are sup-par vs. other decks.
Having card variety, competitive options, is in no means asking for more OP cards. They may turn out to be OP like MC has shown to be when executed properly in a certain deck, but no I am not implying we should flood the market with OP cards for all classes to counter the meta.
Options people, that is what players lack; developers will in the future create these options, but will they be the options we desire? Or do we all want to get on the nerfwagon, and accept whatever comes in the future, and then nerf that too.
MC should be a 6 mana 6/3, just like Justicar. Problem solved without ruining the deck's core. The 6/6 body is just silly for the mana cost given the battlecry. Done and done.
You also have to understand that when it comes to countering cards, Pigeonholes are definitely how the HS team does Tech Cards.
Bloodknight is an amazing Tech card vs. Paladins, Priests and maybe even Hunters and Shamans.
BUT that card is literally a 3/3 for 3 mana in any other matchup.
Kezan Mystic is also pretty great vs. Paladins, Hunters and Mages. (Sometimes Rogue if you get Burgled.)
BUT that card is a 4/3 for 4 mana in any other match-up AND is very weak tempo play in some of it's matchups. (Play this against Secret Paladin and watch them laugh).
Mana Wraith and Nerub'ar Weblord are amazing Anti-Tempo cards. Great against Mages, Hunters and Even Paladins.
BUT they are so easily removed in this meta they will never ever see play, maybe in some Master of Disguise shenanigans but even then that's weak.
a 2 mana 1/3 (or 2/1) that removes Divine Shields for +1/+1 per each removed will never see play in a Hunter, Maybe in a Priest or a Mage. but a Hunter isn't looking for that kind of Value.
a Warrior 5 mana 4/5 that makes everything cost (3) more is basically a Worse Venture Co. Mercenary basically giving him -3/-1 for the Added effect or messing with an opponent's next turn. While I think Warrior should definitely have more ways for Counter-play besides Stalling, Messing with Tempo is not within a Warriors' Goal, Maybe a Rogue or a Mage?
problem with secret paladin its not that its overpowered (which is arguable) but its retardedly easy to play-auto pilot-high reward deck, which brings high ranks to shitload of players who dont deserve it. hence it absolutely plagued ladder, which is mostly play it or counter it. basicly made hearthstone laddering apsolutely disguisting experience
Actually a few of you have a misconception about what "I want". I never even mentioned what I personally wanted, I asked what the community thought that they would desire in the upcoming card releases, which, are bound to happen, right?
Seems people are attacking me for things I don't even think, but which are perceived, just to have something to attack...
I don't "want" new "OP" cards to be released naow, I am attempting to civilly discuss what the community believes to be good solutions if and when new cards do get released to create a new meta that may or may not shift current deck strength either way.
If you want to bury your head in the sand and say "nerf this, nerf that" (which may be what needs to be done, I'm not the decider, neither are any of you, so no need to be hostile about other's opinions) that's fine, but not the goal here. If you want to say "nerf this, nerf that, and introduce this new thing I think would be an awesome addtion to control shaman countering midrange decks!" all the power to you here.
The game will progress, some see it clearly and others don't yet; open discussion on how you would like to see it progress is really the goal here.
Sidenote: "My OP new cards" that I am picturing right now after you all insisted that was my goal would look like, say, a 4 drop shaman card that somehow makes playing a weapon or a 4 drop minion which would have been very good at setting the tempo next turn rather unviable (it's a concept, not a card with stats); instead of a 5 drop mana card that is slightly better then MC that wins the game... and I am very bad at making stats up for cards in my head (I'll leave that to brighter individuals :P )
@Vidarr - All great points, and as you can see, I am horrible at drafting up class card designs; but one of my (many) thoughts recently was how to apply the Bloodknight "type" effects to better valued class cards, which you brought up, as Bloodknight is a rather poorly used tech card in the current meta, with many better, more consistent options available. And/or introduce more instances of Divine shield in other classes possibly?
Hello, so this is my first actual post on this forum, and I have been stalking for a fair bit. Decided it was time to speak up!
I have seen a lot of topics concerning multiple facets of Hearthstone posted here, and its great to see all this varying content to "learn up" on. There is a lot of discussion about balance, deck choices, viability, curves, card strength, ect. Of the many posts, I have seen a fair bit of "Secret Pally" posts, be good, bad, or the ugly. And I think I have heard almost all of the outcries and defenses to the decks that seem to be very relevant this meta.
A bit about me for those interested: I have been messing around with HS for about a year+ now, just getting into it "hardcore" over the past 3 months when I broke down and bought all the expansions (very good investment, and the Heroic modes were a blast as well as a learning experience that was well worth each penny spent in terms of time spent and enjoyment had), DE'd a golden Van Cleef for Dr. Balanced, figured out that I had the best chance succeeding if I devoted my dust and packs to filling out a secret pally (after doing tons of research/ deck checking for what missing/available cards I had) to get started in ranked. I started with an aggro rogue, and as I did well, such as 7 game win streaks, checking all my mistakes and errors every match; I ran up against a wall at rank 14-ish with control decks breaking my tempo hardcore and very easily. I learned how important board control was quickly, as well as a majority of the other winning "cheese" and what to watch out for. I finally completed my secret pally deck (cardwise/dustwise, had Tirion and only missing 3 epics) and had massive win streaks at the rank I was at (in hindsight, I would have lost a majority of them if the players I fought against knew how to counter it at all) and I never saw many secret pally decks at 15+, ever, so I didn't know much about their application either. I climbed to I believe rank 10 that first season. Next season I decided I wanted to get that rank 5 loot chest to help my deck/dust pile out, and with effort and "skill", I did. Come this season, the grind to rank 5 was a bit harder with more secret pally counters, but still doable. Overall that is my story and where I am at. *sorry for the TL;DR paragraph*
From my experience, secret pally is not a guaranteed win, even with MC turn 6, or a well played start, or against a "non-counter". You can always get a bad start with a good finish, a good start curve with a bad endgame, a tough opponent start with no ability to combo later due to board control loss, or an amazing start hard countered with a few good board clears/smart opponent counterplays. By no means is it overpowered in the terms of always being competitive, but it has many combos/minions that require the opponent to have some sort of answer/counter in order to make the high value options you have into less than ideal options. Control decks with counterplays and delays hurt hard, while aggro can get up in your face fast if you don't have the options to trade well early, while combos can come out of nowhere due to the game lasting a bit longer then it should have. It is however, very much consistent, with very good combo, one-card/one-turn options that make the mid-game tempo very easy to take in your favor. Without any thought, I would never beat my way past rank 10, since misplays (you may think secret pally can't misplay, o boy, you are wrong) would end a game there. My hand would be very predictable at that rank and onward, and unless I had the godtier mana curve (which any hand can get and cause a free win), opponents had the opportunities to hard counter me easily.
Certain decks popped up that beat my face in, causing me to look at those setups and see what that new deck I never saw was (a great learning experience) such as doomsayer/conc/equality/wildpyro control/carddraw/combo murloc pally (what a counter if played right!) and boardclear justicar(or)stalagg+shadowflame warlock. I learned fast that I could be countered, and put in to situations that would hurt badly if I played "perfectly", and was forced to play sub-par with limitations to avoid getting hard countered for doing the "right move" on curve. I was predictable at higher rankings with this deck, which made it that much easier for control decks to take advantage of me with a good hand vs. their bad hands. In no way was getting past rank 10 easy or brainless, but also in no way was getting to rank 10 any difficulty or highly thought intensive.
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I have come to the conclusion that there is a handicap due to 1. Knowledge of how Secret pally and their variations work among the majority of the playerbase (more focused on low-card collection/low dust players or lower skilled players) and/or 2. Knowledge of how to counter or play around Secret pally curve to take advantage of the consistency of their playstyle and/or 3. Weak options to the majority of other classes in terms of countering the early-game minion board advantage with consistency/efficiency while also playing into that hand's overall meta correctly.
First, knowledge comes with both experience and devotion (this word was chosen instead of dedication or understanding due to relevance to the issue). You cannot teach a playerbase that is ignorant that they need to "get gud" at a game to be highly successful compared to the rest by any means. The fact that there is no initiative to learn or improve is the direct cause of this problem in the first place, and cannot be solved with a nerf, buff, change to meta, ect. Without 1. (Experience) and 2. (Devotion), no player will improve at this game; experience comes with time, but devotion takes both initiative and drive, which the majority of "gamers in general" (in my experience) lack the most. We cannot change this fact, and this will be what separates top tier from average players.
Second, how to counter specific decks, namely the secret pally in this thread, is an issue at hand when dealing with top tier decks. How easy is it to counter, how consistent, how much thought do you have to put into your moves, how efficient is your deck mid game vs. theirs, do you have the answers or can you come up with them down the line to their threats. Do you have to play for the long haul and burn them out, or do you push aggressively and take advantage of your lead. These are some of the questions you are going to be asking yourself when you play vs. any deck, but how do we do this vs. secret pally? The best way is to 1. have the deck to counter 2. know how to improvise counters if you don't actually have a hard counter and 3. play to your strengths if you cannot correctly counter effectively. At this moment, it seems that secret pally decks have very limited hard counters due to the meta of top tier decks, yet soft counters are abundant and can literally turn into hard counters if played correctly. In conclusion, yes, there are limited hard counters as of this meta to shut out a secret pally at every turn, but improvised counters due to smart thinking and application (with a little luck too :P) will be able to turn the odds in your favor.
Third, the weak early game of other classes is a major issue in terms of Secret pally prevalence, namely shielded minibot, secretkeeper synergy, muster for battle (+knife juggler), sticky shredders, truesilvers, concencrations, avenges and/or that pesky 2/1 popping up and denying you board control for 1 mana. Their are many VERY low mana cost combos also that are a pain to deal with (redemption+minibot only on the field til turn 4, redemption 1. juggler 2. muster 3. shredder 4.) as well as turning the 1/1 2 mana early game dump into +3/+2 minions instead of just being a wasted turn. The options available early game are profound, and the synergy to the deck seems to be too good to be true. The mana curve plays out nicely, even though it seems that it would never work. The answers other classes have to this lineup are sub-optimal to hard counter it, but can prove to be superior in many circumstances. The stronger options that these classes have to counter the early game oppression would cut into the deck viability overall, vs. multiple other decks for starters, as well as change the design of what that deck was intended for. Overall, low mana, early game minion dominance/ spell synergy is hands down Pally all day, and other classes have to deal with it.
Summary and Conclusion:
Now that what I believe to be the issues with Secret Pally in this meta to be brought to light (my opinions of course), we come to the solution proposed. It has nothing to do with knowledgebase of the players, card nerfs, card buffs, deck revisions, new counters, ect. It has to do with the one thing that is causing this issue in the first place. Strong decks being strong. How do we fix this issue? We, as a community, DON'T. The deck will be strong, the counters will counter, the cards will be high value, the curve will fit nicely. What is needed does not come from us, but from DEVELOPERS! Yes, I said it, but how do they do it or what the hell do you mean?
New card options do what? Create new decks! New decks that have different strengths and new weaknesses. New cards to fill the spots that certain classes are lacking in comparison to their counterparts. That 2/2 shielded minibot (singular example) is too much to pass up on a Pally and is creating high value from low cost? Introducing similar options to other classes, which can be used in other Strong decks being strong will help ease issues created from our current meta, in fact, any meta for that matter. Overall, deck strength is not based solely on the deck being used, but also against the multiple decks it faces. A strong deck cannot be dominate strong when other options that rival it exist for multiple classes.
Finally, the solution, NEW OPTIONS FOR MULTIPLE CLASSES IN TERMS OF CARD VARIETY i.e. new Expansions or Adventures! When will this happen? In time. Do we have control over this? Nope, not really. Can we be heard about how we would like to see the meta change? Most likely yes. Can we bring valid issues to light and propose future solutions? For sure!
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To start, a question to all who read this very long post (and thank you much for reading my very first community excerpt!), what solutions in your class decks would you like to see to combat this current meta (not specifically secret pally, but you get the idea) from future card releases?
Please
PRAISE THE SUN!
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Sorry for the No TL;DR, since, this has a lot of complex thoughts about the topic, and would not summarize well at all in a few sentences. If anything consider the TL;DR the SUMMARY and CONCLUSION section.
For those who did read my thoughts and experiences relating to this topic, thank you! And yes, it is a hazardous monstrosity in terms of word count!
No worries, I expected to get some ppl poking fun at the overall length in the first place, since, I am long winded. :P
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no likes, and may God have mercy on your soul.
I believe that Mysterious Challenger is fine for a very strong deck, yes. If Mysterious challenger was not strong, or Avenge was not strong, or Shielded Minibot was not strong; then yes, this deck would be very weak.
I wish, as much as you probably, for new content to be released, and new decks to be formulated that are SUPER STRONG. Lots of them, tons of them, so many super strong decks that you can't figure out which super strong deck is the strongest for the many classes there are!
But, that takes time, and balance, and is not going to happen immediately, hell, it may never happen... but one can dream right?
Class synergy and strong cards are what every class needs, you could call it powercreep, balance, progressive card influx; but at the end of the day, the goal would be to create competitive options that have overpowered strengths countered by other overpowered strengths. This may be very hard to accomplish on the development level, but I personally feel that this playstyle would be very engaging, win or lose.
And in the end, I believe the best "nerf" to MC, as well as Secret Pally in general, would be a buff in terms of COMPETITIVE options to all classes with new cards.
Edit: Hell, I believe that a small nerf to MC + new competitive options introduced may be the right way to go too, but in no means will a nerf to MC (unless massive) change our current meta.
Powercreep will eventually kill this game. As the wall between new players and old players slowly adds up, the amount of new players coming in will drop at some point it will die. Not saying this will happen soon, just that it will happen.
TL:DR:
Doomsayer
While I agree with you that Nerfs shouldn't go directly to the Mysterious Challenger himself, You have to realize that all Classes are not created equal. Giving each class an amazing 2 Drop would ruin what makes Classes the perfect imbalance compared to Paladins, Sure Paladins have amazing Minions, but they have the Worst spells in the game. I can name only 3 off the top of my head that actually receive play.
Now how do we circumvent the Paladins overall minion-aggression due to How many threats the deck can pull out? Easily enough: Just give Class specific tools to deal with them.
WARRIOR: In a really good spot but would need something to deal with Divine shields maybe a new card similar to Bouncing Blade or a Death's Bite or something as simple as a Blood Knight. Secrets shouldn't be an issue as they have minions that are amazing at Chump-blocking them.
WARLOCK: I think Warlock (especially its Aggro variants) can handle Secret Paladin okayish. but may need a little Secret removal, Maybe something like Flare or a Kezan Mystic + Brann Bronzebeard combination?
HUNTER: I think is OK, Flare + 5 Drop or 4 Drop is an Okay turn, will definitely make you sad you can't play Highmane on curve, but you gotta make sacrifices, They definitely don't need anymore cards to handle Secrets.
PRIEST: I think Priest will need some form of Early Removal or a Buff that allows you to contend the board similar to Velen's Chosen
MAGE: Now a Kirin Tor Mage and Ethereal Arcanist are Nowhere near enough Secret synergy that Paladin has, I think Mage needs a Secret or two to handle the Turn 6 Situation. Something similar to Unsummon(from MTG) or maybe a board wipe.
DRUID: They actually already have the Tools necessary, but people don't want to run them. Things like Poison Seeds + Starfall make most Paladins sad.
ROGUE: they are probably in the best spot save for the Secret removal, which is stupidly surprising because they're a Rogue. They should be able to remove alot of other things.
SHAMAN: This class already suffers from a Crisis, but Removal isn't one of them, Elemental Destruction + 3 Drop is an amazing board reset.
PALADIN: Moot.
The Problem here isn't: Is this Best in Slot? what we need is Options for Best in Slot, Unfortunately we're in one of the earliest forms of Hearthstone so we don't have a lot of those instances.
I'll start, how about a solution to the 2/2 minibot from the perspective of a, say hunter. Adding a 2 drop that steals ALL Divine shields and if stolen applies them to that minion at say 1/3 or 2/1 and make it a Mech. How about a Warrior 5 drop that makes the next weapon or minion played cost 3 more from either player, and has a 4/5 body. (these are random stats off the top of my head as of right now)
Options like this, which are not pigeonholed to counter specific classes in particular, would be more tools to fight current meta dominate decks, as well as possible viable substitutions for current cards in all decks.
And I agree with your statement that we are in one of the earliest forms of Hearthstone right now, even after how long it has actually been around.
Everyone who doesn't realize this can go to the salt thread.
Didn't read LOL
@kazinova - Well reading all the current secret pally posts, not once did I see what I believed to be the counter to them addressed, which would be the introduction of future cards, which would not directly "counter" particular decks, but create the next new meta we long for, which hopefully has many top decks competing neck to neck for which one is more "OP", instead of one or two being blatantly dominant in the meta. Just wanted to get my LENGTHY opinion out there :P
You wrote a high school essay explaining that we should not do anything.
Make the Card: The biggest thread on the site!
My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
In no means have I said I want more OP cards more powerful than Mysterious Challenger to exist for every class, let alone one class.
The problem is that cards which provide the synergy MC does which makes the current Secret Pally even work, do not exist for the most part. Options to hard-counter Secret Pally are not prevalent, and even if there are hard-counters, they are sup-par vs. other decks.
Having card variety, competitive options, is in no means asking for more OP cards. They may turn out to be OP like MC has shown to be when executed properly in a certain deck, but no I am not implying we should flood the market with OP cards for all classes to counter the meta.
Options people, that is what players lack; developers will in the future create these options, but will they be the options we desire? Or do we all want to get on the nerfwagon, and accept whatever comes in the future, and then nerf that too.
MC should be a 6 mana 6/3, just like Justicar. Problem solved without ruining the deck's core. The 6/6 body is just silly for the mana cost given the battlecry. Done and done.
@TheWamts - You figured me out! O, noes!
On the serious side, that is implying we could do anything in the first place at all :P
@smass41 - I agree, but I was considering it be a 6/4 instead of a 6/3. But still, my opinion won't make that happen at all.
You also have to understand that when it comes to countering cards, Pigeonholes are definitely how the HS team does Tech Cards.
Bloodknight is an amazing Tech card vs. Paladins, Priests and maybe even Hunters and Shamans.
BUT that card is literally a 3/3 for 3 mana in any other matchup.
Kezan Mystic is also pretty great vs. Paladins, Hunters and Mages. (Sometimes Rogue if you get Burgled.)
BUT that card is a 4/3 for 4 mana in any other match-up AND is very weak tempo play in some of it's matchups. (Play this against Secret Paladin and watch them laugh).
Mana Wraith and Nerub'ar Weblord are amazing Anti-Tempo cards. Great against Mages, Hunters and Even Paladins.
BUT they are so easily removed in this meta they will never ever see play, maybe in some Master of Disguise shenanigans but even then that's weak.
a 2 mana 1/3 (or 2/1) that removes Divine Shields for +1/+1 per each removed will never see play in a Hunter, Maybe in a Priest or a Mage. but a Hunter isn't looking for that kind of Value.
a Warrior 5 mana 4/5 that makes everything cost (3) more is basically a Worse Venture Co. Mercenary basically giving him -3/-1 for the Added effect or messing with an opponent's next turn. While I think Warrior should definitely have more ways for Counter-play besides Stalling, Messing with Tempo is not within a Warriors' Goal, Maybe a Rogue or a Mage?
problem with secret paladin its not that its overpowered (which is arguable) but its retardedly easy to play-auto pilot-high reward deck, which brings high ranks to shitload of players who dont deserve it. hence it absolutely plagued ladder, which is mostly play it or counter it. basicly made hearthstone laddering apsolutely disguisting experience
Actually a few of you have a misconception about what "I want". I never even mentioned what I personally wanted, I asked what the community thought that they would desire in the upcoming card releases, which, are bound to happen, right?
Seems people are attacking me for things I don't even think, but which are perceived, just to have something to attack...
I don't "want" new "OP" cards to be released naow, I am attempting to civilly discuss what the community believes to be good solutions if and when new cards do get released to create a new meta that may or may not shift current deck strength either way.
If you want to bury your head in the sand and say "nerf this, nerf that" (which may be what needs to be done, I'm not the decider, neither are any of you, so no need to be hostile about other's opinions) that's fine, but not the goal here. If you want to say "nerf this, nerf that, and introduce this new thing I think would be an awesome addtion to control shaman countering midrange decks!" all the power to you here.
The game will progress, some see it clearly and others don't yet; open discussion on how you would like to see it progress is really the goal here.
Sidenote: "My OP new cards" that I am picturing right now after you all insisted that was my goal would look like, say, a 4 drop shaman card that somehow makes playing a weapon or a 4 drop minion which would have been very good at setting the tempo next turn rather unviable (it's a concept, not a card with stats); instead of a 5 drop mana card that is slightly better then MC that wins the game... and I am very bad at making stats up for cards in my head (I'll leave that to brighter individuals :P )
@Vidarr - All great points, and as you can see, I am horrible at drafting up class card designs; but one of my (many) thoughts recently was how to apply the Bloodknight "type" effects to better valued class cards, which you brought up, as Bloodknight is a rather poorly used tech card in the current meta, with many better, more consistent options available. And/or introduce more instances of Divine shield in other classes possibly?