Eh, at master ranked it really is less about whether you go first or not and more about the mana curve of your deck and how well you can board clear. Turn 2 might have a slight advantage but it isn't as drastic as people would like to believe, if it is even there at all.
I disagree, I think it depends on the deck, not the division. Rogues can make better use of it, any deck that uses Gadgetzan as a draw engine can DEFINITELY use it, some mage plays if you open Wyrm are great, and then there's perfect hands Druid...
I usually, like to go first, unless it's a deck where I want to go second xD
to be short and get this over with once and for all. Stats have proven 1st turn wins just a little bit more of 2nd turn. It is most likely ur mulligans or just ur lack of making the best choice instead of a good choice which then results in loses. 9/10 times u keep trading and trading minions which will result in u always have the 1st 6 7 8 9 drop which he then has 2 counter if he cant ur in the lead so bad. most 2 drops have 2 hp which can be countered by most 1 drops so it rly should not be a problem for u to win. Stop Tempo Win game
While it's true that turn 1 has a high win rate (when blizzard showed the statistic at least, that may have changed), turn 2 has clear advantages for some class. Coin defias is the obvious one, but Mage, Warlock, rush pali, any murloc deck, etc all have great benefits from going second. Getting that first board control and having an extra card can make a huge difference.
While it's true that turn 1 has a high win rate (when blizzard showed the statistic at least, that may have changed), turn 2 has clear advantages for some class. Coin defias is the obvious one, but Mage, Warlock, rush pali, any murloc deck, etc all have great benefits from going second. Getting that first board control and having an extra card can make a huge difference.
That's not true, at least according to the official statistics presented by Blizzard at Blizzcon. *ALL* classes have an advantage going first, albeit a small one. Some classes have less of an advantage going first, for example Rogues, but all classes do have an advantage.
While it's true that turn 1 has a high win rate (when blizzard showed the statistic at least, that may have changed), turn 2 has clear advantages for some class. Coin defias is the obvious one, but Mage, Warlock, rush pali, any murloc deck, etc all have great benefits from going second. Getting that first board control and having an extra card can make a huge difference.
That's not true, at least according to the official statistics presented by Blizzard at Blizzcon. *ALL* classes have an advantage going first, albeit a small one. Some classes have less of an advantage going first, for example Rogues, but all classes do have an advantage.
Same for me. Prefer going second. And I give 0 fucks about Blizzard stats, if there's something where pure numbers can be wrong is balancing computer games. If it FEELS weaker for so many players, it IS weaker. Number is well, a number and it is open to a LOT of interpretation. So, I tell you this: Argent commander wins 50% of the games he is in (OF COURSE doh, he is in EVERY deck so one has to lose). Not balanced. King Krush wins 70% of the games he gets played in. Suuuuuure, but it's a big creature with charge that is most probably used as a win condition for the class that rarely reaches turn 9 in the first place. So. A naked number isn't always relevant. Let me see i.e new stats in a meta that doesn't have 10000 cheap monsters in a deck but a slower meta where a bad mulligan can cripple you bad. Or a more mid-game orientated meta where coining a 4-5 drop first will have greater impact than early board position. Or... You get the point, try playing a couple "mediocre" decks atm that disregard the meta and let's have this discussion again.
I remember Trump's chatbot recording him with a ~6x% win rate going first, you can much more easily turn a game going first. I like to think of going first as reactionary, whereas going second can be more committing and dangerous. It further heightens potential risk/reward.
That said, I prefer to go first with classes that have better reactionary plays. Warrior and Shaman for example will happily bring out a weapon against a coined turn 2 play. Mages work both ways with Mana Wyrm, but turn 1 Wyrm can be deadly going first to have initiative on the board and present an immediate threat. Turn 1 Northshire Cleric also locks down a good amount of options for beginning plays at the risk of giving Mr. Priest free cards. Warlock gains so much tempo from turn 1 plays as well if you have a strong turn 2 play (Demonfire, Dire Wolf).
Blizzard may say it is even, but I say otherwise. From 46 games against human opponents: win rate going first is just 37.04%; my win rate going second is 78.95%. This is with Priest in a mixture of ranked (38 games) and casual (10 games).
I think this actually really depends on your deck build.
I think it depends on the class AND your hand, not the deck.
Surely Rogue is the best coin class, but mages do well, too, if they have a Mana Wyrm in hand. If you dont have the wyrm its usually better to go first as a mage. This was especially true pre patch with Pyroblast at 8 mana.
The pala weapon on turn 2 is a huge deal, too.
But I think it is always great to go second when you got two 2-drops in your starting hand or when you face a rogue
That is pretty hard in a card game. At some point in the process SOMEONE needs to be the first to take an action, leaving the other to react.
Was kidding. hehehe.
Seems like almost everyone is agree that the problem isn't the coin, is the 4th card.
Could it be removed? will it affect drastically?
It's more or less balanced at the moment, with a slight advantage to the 1 going first (overall). Changing ANYTHING about the current set up would mean that going second is a clearly worse position to be in again (overall).
I doubt Blizzard is even considering this "issue" anymore. They've got mountains of data suggesting it's balanced (overall) so why tinker with it?
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From my personal statistics, I have a approximately 12% higher chance of winning when going second than going first. This is over all of the classes I play, which is a bit biased towards rogue I have to admit.
Coin is too useful for Rogue and tooo bad when not having it, 1 less card can't chain to be at the same position as the other, being rogue going first most of the time just sucks :P
Coin is too useful for Rogue and tooo bad when not having it, 1 less card can't chain to be at the same position as the other, being rogue going first most of the time just sucks :P
actually rogue is the only class i clearly prefer going first with. the coin i really just amazing when u can play the scrubs on turn one or SI7: AGent on turn 2. i play teh standard aggressive tempo rogue with the lategame leeroy + cold blood combo and since im the aggressive one i like being 1 step ahead of my opponent.
I also like turn 2 on my control druid. I run Auctioneer, mountian giants and twlilight drakes, so turn 2 is a big deal.
I pretty heavily favor start second for arena. Would be interested to see Blizz's stats on arena, but probably won't happen since they already said they're not balancing around arena ~_~
going second has advantages in the early game, but if the person going first mana curves well then going first has massive advantages from about 4-10. Just think, 8/9 turn drops get a whole extra turn on the board before mindcontrol comes out, and you can drop this down to any mana level (1 more turn of action b4 flame strike ETC).
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I disagree, I think it depends on the deck, not the division. Rogues can make better use of it, any deck that uses Gadgetzan as a draw engine can DEFINITELY use it, some mage plays if you open Wyrm are great, and then there's perfect hands Druid...
I usually, like to go first, unless it's a deck where I want to go second xD
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While it's true that turn 1 has a high win rate (when blizzard showed the statistic at least, that may have changed), turn 2 has clear advantages for some class. Coin defias is the obvious one, but Mage, Warlock, rush pali, any murloc deck, etc all have great benefits from going second. Getting that first board control and having an extra card can make a huge difference.
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That's not true, at least according to the official statistics presented by Blizzard at Blizzcon. *ALL* classes have an advantage going first, albeit a small one. Some classes have less of an advantage going first, for example Rogues, but all classes do have an advantage.
Details are here:
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http://media-hearth.cursecdn.com/attachments/0/826/20131108230320873.png
The game has changed a LOT since Blizzcon
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I think this actually really depends on your deck build.
Same for me. Prefer going second. And I give 0 fucks about Blizzard stats, if there's something where pure numbers can be wrong is balancing computer games. If it FEELS weaker for so many players, it IS weaker. Number is well, a number and it is open to a LOT of interpretation. So, I tell you this: Argent commander wins 50% of the games he is in (OF COURSE doh, he is in EVERY deck so one has to lose). Not balanced. King Krush wins 70% of the games he gets played in. Suuuuuure, but it's a big creature with charge that is most probably used as a win condition for the class that rarely reaches turn 9 in the first place. So. A naked number isn't always relevant. Let me see i.e new stats in a meta that doesn't have 10000 cheap monsters in a deck but a slower meta where a bad mulligan can cripple you bad. Or a more mid-game orientated meta where coining a 4-5 drop first will have greater impact than early board position. Or... You get the point, try playing a couple "mediocre" decks atm that disregard the meta and let's have this discussion again.
I remember Trump's chatbot recording him with a ~6x% win rate going first, you can much more easily turn a game going first. I like to think of going first as reactionary, whereas going second can be more committing and dangerous. It further heightens potential risk/reward.
That said, I prefer to go first with classes that have better reactionary plays. Warrior and Shaman for example will happily bring out a weapon against a coined turn 2 play. Mages work both ways with Mana Wyrm, but turn 1 Wyrm can be deadly going first to have initiative on the board and present an immediate threat. Turn 1 Northshire Cleric also locks down a good amount of options for beginning plays at the risk of giving Mr. Priest free cards. Warlock gains so much tempo from turn 1 plays as well if you have a strong turn 2 play (Demonfire, Dire Wolf).
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As a rogue, going second can be so much better. Turn two SI agent straight out kills most two drops, so that puts you ahead straight away.
Make both going at same time, fix'd.
That is pretty hard in a card game. At some point in the process SOMEONE needs to be the first to take an action, leaving the other to react.
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I think it depends on the class AND your hand, not the deck.
Surely Rogue is the best coin class, but mages do well, too, if they have a Mana Wyrm in hand. If you dont have the wyrm its usually better to go first as a mage. This was especially true pre patch with Pyroblast at 8 mana.
The pala weapon on turn 2 is a huge deal, too.
But I think it is always great to go second when you got two 2-drops in your starting hand or when you face a rogue
Was kidding. hehehe.
Seems like almost everyone is agree that the problem isn't the coin, is the 4th card.
Could it be removed? will it affect drastically?
It's more or less balanced at the moment, with a slight advantage to the 1 going first (overall). Changing ANYTHING about the current set up would mean that going second is a clearly worse position to be in again (overall).
I doubt Blizzard is even considering this "issue" anymore. They've got mountains of data suggesting it's balanced (overall) so why tinker with it?
If you see a bad post on the forum use the report function under it, so I or someone else of the moderation team can take care of it!
From my personal statistics, I have a approximately 12% higher chance of winning when going second than going first. This is over all of the classes I play, which is a bit biased towards rogue I have to admit.
Coin is too useful for Rogue and tooo bad when not having it, 1 less card can't chain to be at the same position as the other, being rogue going first most of the time just sucks :P
I also like turn 2 on my control druid. I run Auctioneer, mountian giants and twlilight drakes, so turn 2 is a big deal.
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I found this thread interesting so tracked it to see how much of a difference it was. Pretty astounding results.
I play Control Warrior (Confused), Ancients druid (Moon) and Kolento miracle Rogue. These are my results for ranked matches.
I go first 51.3% of the time, 2nd 48.7% of the time. My chances of winning if I go 2nd is +24%!!!
Playing druid and being able to innervate/coin combos to get out big 4/5s or taunts up fast is fantastic and can swing games big time.
Rogues having a free coin to combo with is a massive boost,
Warrior being able to get out brawl or legendaries 1 turn earlier can swing games.
84%
I pretty heavily favor start second for arena. Would be interested to see Blizz's stats on arena, but probably won't happen since they already said they're not balancing around arena ~_~
going second has advantages in the early game, but if the person going first mana curves well then going first has massive advantages from about 4-10. Just think, 8/9 turn drops get a whole extra turn on the board before mindcontrol comes out, and you can drop this down to any mana level (1 more turn of action b4 flame strike ETC).