There are a bunch of demonlock decks going around, some better than others. Almost all of them seem to run Mistress of Pain, though, and I just don't understand it. It's a weak card under the best of circumstances, but it's terrible in demonlock. The standard build barely even includes any cards that synergize with it (seems like usually just Abusive Sergeant and Defender of Argus) and it's actually anti-synergy with Voidcaller.
How is Knife Juggler not an infinitely better 2-drop for demonlock?
I haven't played a ton of Demonlock but I did give SilentStorm's a try after he won ESL with that as the MVP deck and Mistress ended up being one of the better cards in the deck. The meta seems to have slowed down slightly and there isnt quite as much Mech Mage and Face Hunter (not that they arent popular but they seem to be around a little less) so maybe it wont be as good anymore. However, it was a very strong card when I tried it.
I was skeptical as well but if dropped on curve even in the worst situations she usually takes two shots to be killed meaning you can life tap one more time. Two health can be game-deciding in those aggro matchups. I mean if she were a 2 cost 1/4 with Battlecry: Your hero gains 2 health then she would be worth it right? And even unbuffed and in a bad situation she is better than that because in that situation you would need to be damaged before you played her. If you can get a Power Overwhelming or Abusive Sergeant on her and actually have her trade up AND give you a bigger health boost... Well it is just sick value. Her value to the deck is pretty subtle and she definitely isnt good on her own or in every deck but Demonlock is a deck that wants to survive to the late game and has tools to compliment her ability. That makes her a pretty solid choice.
Knife Juggler would also be a good choice but it really depends on your build and how aggressive you want to be. Juggler is worse in the aggro matchup (probably dies unfavorably and gives 0 sustain) but better if you want to be the one being aggressive. I would compare the choice of Mistress of Pain or Knife Juggler to the choice of Zombie Chow or Leper Gnome. Mistress/Zombie will probably be better if you want to survive a long time. Juggler/Leper will be better if you want your opponent to die ASAP.
There are a bunch of demonlock decks going around, some better than others. Almost all of them seem to run Mistress of Pain, though, and I just don't understand it. It's a weak card under the best of circumstances, but it's terrible in demonlock. The standard build barely even includes any cards that synergize with it (seems like usually just Abusive Sergeant and Defender of Argus) and it's actually anti-synergy with Voidcaller.
Hmmm, you state up front that there are lots of kinds of Demonlock, but then you only seem to really be discussing one of them -- the more aggro kind, or what I call "Demon Zoo." And in that deck, I agree with you, Mistress of Pain is skippable and worse than Knife Juggler would be. (Although if you already have Knife Jugglers, Mistress of Pain could still be viable just due to Power Overwhelming synergy.)
"Demon Zoo" also shouldn't run Voidcaller IMHO, because of the anti-synergy you mention -- which also applies to Flame Imps and Voidwalkers. Really, I think only the Demonlocks with expensive demons should run Voidcaller.
With my limited card selection, my current best Warlock build is one focusing on Floating Watcher. I have tons of ways to deal damage to myself -- which means I also need every source of healing I can get. Mistress of Pain is excellent here, especially since I also run Demonfire and Demonheart. I wish I had a second copy of her to put in the deck.
I mean if she were a 2 cost 1/4 with Battlecry: Your hero gains 2 health then she would be worth it right?
Not in my book. A 2-drop with a 1/4 body is always going to be a bad on-curve play, especially in a meta where your opponent is very likely to play a 2/3 on turns 1 and 2 (e.g. Mechwarper). Armorsmith isn't played on curve, and Mistress of Pain is basically a weak knockoff Armorsmith with some interesting upside that isn't reliably accessible.
I've run up against the card a dozen times now, and in all but two cases, it's been a free kill. I think people may be remembering the rare effective combos they pulled off with it and not recognizing how often it accomplishes nothing—the same sort of confirmation bias that makes people think Pyroblast is OP.
Everyone here is missing the point of mistress of pain, you have to view this card as a card draw mechanic. Every time mistress of pain heals your character for one health, you essentially gain half an extra card.
And in regards to the OP, Knife Juggler is not a win condition for demonlocks.
Demon decks win with heavy hitters like Jarraxxus, Malganis, giants or burst plays like arcane golem + power overwhelming + faceless
So keeping your health up with even a low attack card like Mistress of Pain is crucial to the play style.
And in regards to the OP, Knife Juggler is not a win condition for demonlocks.
Doesn't have to be. It's just a strong 2-drop that trades well (or, frequently, draws removal) on curve and can later be comboed very effectively with Implosion.
And in regards to the OP, Knife Juggler is not a win condition for demonlocks.
Doesn't have to be. It's just a strong 2-drop that trades well (or, frequently, draws removal) on curve and can later be comboed very effectively with Implosion.
Most of the time in a demonlock deck you wouldn’t put mistress or juggler on turn 2 for a trade, you will usually tap for cards.
Hellfire and shadowflame will clear the board better than juggler. Juggler fits better in a tempo or aggro deck, Demonlock decks are usually not played in that style.
Mistress survives darkbomb, frostbolt, wrath, etc. and mistress can give you much needed health mid or late game.
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4x Top 150 arena player #95 June 2017 6.80, #108 Aug 2017 7.67, #127 Feb 2018 Wildfest 7.7, #33 Nov 2018 7.53
HCT Challenger Finals qualifier: 2018 Season 1, 2, 3
The card was designed to fit the Warlock archetype. Has a huge drawback, being a 1/4 and can sometimes feel dead on the board... but against specific matchup and buffed in many ways, she can be a huge card.
She heals for ton when coupled with Argus, or a Demon buffing spell. And she's useful to kill those pesky pop-ups coming from Deathrattle minions with 1-health or snake from Hunter's trap, paladin token.
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Used to be a proud Handlock player.
Legend 17 times.
Still flirting with the ladder from times to times with Renolock.
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There are a bunch of demonlock decks going around, some better than others. Almost all of them seem to run Mistress of Pain, though, and I just don't understand it. It's a weak card under the best of circumstances, but it's terrible in demonlock. The standard build barely even includes any cards that synergize with it (seems like usually just Abusive Sergeant and Defender of Argus) and it's actually anti-synergy with Voidcaller.
How is Knife Juggler not an infinitely better 2-drop for demonlock?
I guess it gets killed by mech less spells, and the lifegain may provide useful in some matches (freeze mage, ev rogue ?)
It also help to tap a little more against aggro I suppose.
When you face a weak trash monsters like those spectral spiders, she shines.
she's a great, great target for Power Overwhelming
her combo with Demonheart is insane!
Imagine if she could work with Shadowflame..
mfw his Yogg steals my win
This is true, but most demonlocks don't run Demonheart.
The other arguments people have offered are pretty niche. I just don't believe this card is making any deck stronger.
Demonheart, Demonfire, Power Overwhelming and just plain old Mal'Ganis make this card incredible.
One of the most underrated GvG in my opinion.
I haven't played a ton of Demonlock but I did give SilentStorm's a try after he won ESL with that as the MVP deck and Mistress ended up being one of the better cards in the deck. The meta seems to have slowed down slightly and there isnt quite as much Mech Mage and Face Hunter (not that they arent popular but they seem to be around a little less) so maybe it wont be as good anymore. However, it was a very strong card when I tried it.
I was skeptical as well but if dropped on curve even in the worst situations she usually takes two shots to be killed meaning you can life tap one more time. Two health can be game-deciding in those aggro matchups. I mean if she were a 2 cost 1/4 with Battlecry: Your hero gains 2 health then she would be worth it right? And even unbuffed and in a bad situation she is better than that because in that situation you would need to be damaged before you played her. If you can get a Power Overwhelming or Abusive Sergeant on her and actually have her trade up AND give you a bigger health boost... Well it is just sick value. Her value to the deck is pretty subtle and she definitely isnt good on her own or in every deck but Demonlock is a deck that wants to survive to the late game and has tools to compliment her ability. That makes her a pretty solid choice.
Knife Juggler would also be a good choice but it really depends on your build and how aggressive you want to be. Juggler is worse in the aggro matchup (probably dies unfavorably and gives 0 sustain) but better if you want to be the one being aggressive. I would compare the choice of Mistress of Pain or Knife Juggler to the choice of Zombie Chow or Leper Gnome. Mistress/Zombie will probably be better if you want to survive a long time. Juggler/Leper will be better if you want your opponent to die ASAP.
Hmmm, you state up front that there are lots of kinds of Demonlock, but then you only seem to really be discussing one of them -- the more aggro kind, or what I call "Demon Zoo." And in that deck, I agree with you, Mistress of Pain is skippable and worse than Knife Juggler would be. (Although if you already have Knife Jugglers, Mistress of Pain could still be viable just due to Power Overwhelming synergy.)
"Demon Zoo" also shouldn't run Voidcaller IMHO, because of the anti-synergy you mention -- which also applies to Flame Imps and Voidwalkers. Really, I think only the Demonlocks with expensive demons should run Voidcaller.
With my limited card selection, my current best Warlock build is one focusing on Floating Watcher. I have tons of ways to deal damage to myself -- which means I also need every source of healing I can get. Mistress of Pain is excellent here, especially since I also run Demonfire and Demonheart. I wish I had a second copy of her to put in the deck.
Not in my book. A 2-drop with a 1/4 body is always going to be a bad on-curve play, especially in a meta where your opponent is very likely to play a 2/3 on turns 1 and 2 (e.g. Mechwarper). Armorsmith isn't played on curve, and Mistress of Pain is basically a weak knockoff Armorsmith with some interesting upside that isn't reliably accessible.
I've run up against the card a dozen times now, and in all but two cases, it's been a free kill. I think people may be remembering the rare effective combos they pulled off with it and not recognizing how often it accomplishes nothing—the same sort of confirmation bias that makes people think Pyroblast is OP.
Everyone here is missing the point of mistress of pain, you have to view this card as a card draw mechanic. Every time mistress of pain heals your character for one health, you essentially gain half an extra card.
And in regards to the OP, Knife Juggler is not a win condition for demonlocks.
Demon decks win with heavy hitters like Jarraxxus, Malganis, giants or burst plays like arcane golem + power overwhelming + faceless
So keeping your health up with even a low attack card like Mistress of Pain is crucial to the play style.
4x Top 150 arena player
#95 June 2017 6.80, #108 Aug 2017 7.67, #127 Feb 2018 Wildfest 7.7, #33 Nov 2018 7.53
HCT Challenger Finals qualifier: 2018 Season 1, 2, 3
Doesn't have to be. It's just a strong 2-drop that trades well (or, frequently, draws removal) on curve and can later be comboed very effectively with Implosion.
Most of the time in a demonlock deck you wouldn’t put mistress or juggler on turn 2 for a trade, you will usually tap for cards.
Hellfire and shadowflame will clear the board better than juggler. Juggler fits better in a tempo or aggro deck, Demonlock decks are usually not played in that style.
Mistress survives darkbomb, frostbolt, wrath, etc. and mistress can give you much needed health mid or late game.
4x Top 150 arena player
#95 June 2017 6.80, #108 Aug 2017 7.67, #127 Feb 2018 Wildfest 7.7, #33 Nov 2018 7.53
HCT Challenger Finals qualifier: 2018 Season 1, 2, 3
Demon Heart turns it into a 6-7 and a 6 heal.
420 NA User.
The card was designed to fit the Warlock archetype. Has a huge drawback, being a 1/4 and can sometimes feel dead on the board... but against specific matchup and buffed in many ways, she can be a huge card.
She heals for ton when coupled with Argus, or a Demon buffing spell. And she's useful to kill those pesky pop-ups coming from Deathrattle minions with 1-health or snake from Hunter's trap, paladin token.
Used to be a proud Handlock player.
Legend 17 times.
Still flirting with the ladder from times to times with Renolock.