Guys I'm not disagreeing with the fact that the aggro archetype is too good or the best cards right now are aggro, what I have a problem with is the statement that DH was "designed as an aggro class", which is clearly not the case in my view. It happened to end that way because they fucked up, but it wasn't their initial intent / design. You have to distinguish the intent from the result, and I'm saying this because I think the class is fun and has potential to be "good" IF they rework it in the right way. Which is NOT nerfing everything to the ground btw.
For example Warglaives of Azzinoth imho isn't specifically designed to be a "go face" card, in fact it rewards you (with extra attacks) for hitting minions, not face, punishing you by making you take a crapload of damage in the process (problem that would be negated by comboing it with Blur, another control-designed card that isn't used); the real issue is that the rest of the aggro tools/plan is so good (in part because of what I consider bad nerfs as already explained) that Warglaives is now used as an aggro card to clear the way for your other minions, Priestess in particular, and then hit face. If the early aggro plan wasn't so good, Warglaives wouldn't be used in such a way (in fact it wasn't played in the early aggro lists). And aggro DH often doesn't care about taking all that damage since he aims to wrap up the game before that damage taken is relevant, which negates its drawback.
Early weapons are also not necessarily a sign of aggro too, Fiery War Axe used to be a defining weapon for Control Warrior for example, and Aldrachi Warblades would fit a similar spot too. Sure any weapon can be used to go face, but you can distinguish between a weapon designed to be an aggro card, such as Umberwing, and one designed to be a removal/control tool for the early game, such as Aldrachi.
Those AOEs are also not necessarily designed to be used in a tempo vs tempo matchup, especially Chaos Nova, that wouldn't hit your own minions if that was the case. Blade Dance is more versatile and would fit both, that I agree. It's not used in current tempo/aggro lists tho, which is telling.
Can't you equally say that Warglaives of Azzinoth is an aggressive card, because it affords you the opportunity to both clear minions and go face in the same turn - IE. letting you keep hold of the bord, while simultaneously forwarding your face-plan?
I agree that aggro wasn't necessarily the only archetype they wanted out of DH. But when you look at the discrepancy between how well it goes face, and how middling it is at control (it has no hard removal, and is light on lategame threats/value compared to say rogue), it's hard for me to imagine they didn't design DH with the premise of easy-to-pilot, fast decks in mind.
Depends on how you define "best." In terms of win-rate? LOLNO, Big Demon Hunter is far from the best. But it's wicked sweet.
The most disappointing thing about Demon Hunter is that, despite having so many cool and fun tools for control games, it's basically just a face deck. The balance is clearly off.
Outcast is clearly under-valued; it's a lot easier to trigger in a fast deck than anticipated, and the cards are just a bit too potent.
Draw is a bit too easy to accomplish (Skull is still busted... that minus-three mana also does what? Make it really easy to Outcast!), so they don't run out of gas.
I can't really fault anyone for playing the face/tempo Demon Hunter, bland as it is, since it's incredibly good.
But dang is highlander or control demon hunter sweet. Coilfang Warlord is awesome. Kill something and get a 5/9 taunt is great. All the DH taunts are pretty cool, and they've got a lot of useful spells. There's nothing cooler than bombtraining someone with a lot of huge demons.
Can't you equally say that Warglaives of Azzinoth is an aggressive card, because it affords you the opportunity to both clear minions and go face in the same turn - IE. letting you keep hold of the bord, while simultaneously forwarding your face-plan?
We could and I see your point, but... again, it wasn't designed for that kind of use in my opinion. When the cards were revealed before the expansion hit, my first thought was that it was a nice control weapon. A typical hyper aggro deck couldn't afford to run a 5-mana weapon (running it x2 nonetheless) that "only" does 3 face-damage at a time, and they're not even using all those durability charges on face most of the times either. It only works because 1) aggro DH doesn't run out of steam, so they can afford running high-cost cards without bricking and 2) clearing the way for Priestess is so gamewinning in itself that the weapon inclusion is justified.
It's a sort of an anomaly that an aggro deck can run so many mid/high costed cards, and it's because its drawing/discounting capabilities that allow it to do that.
You basically say Blizz is a bunch of morons, who don't know what cards they designed do.
I can assure you they were testing the class before the release and they were aware of both the fact that the new class will be stomping others and that the best variant will be aggro.
Seriously you think they are ignorant to a point, where they release a bunch of cards and they don't know what the cards will be doing?
The only thing they possibly/probably didn't predict accurately, was the margin by which the new class will outclass the rest. Don't be naive thinking they didn't release simple aggro deck and made it the best on purpose.
I certainly see how the weapon could be featured in a control deck, if the support is there - in something of a Gorehowl role. But aggro definitely can run a 5-mana weapon - Arcanite Reaper has been a staple of every pirate warrior, and that's less damage over time (albeit, warrior can and does run upgrade effects).
It's hard for either of us to know what was the intention behind these cards, and I think we have to look at the potency of the cards around them. IMO, they must have known aggro would be by far the strongest variant of Demon Hunter. Hence, if they want to say the designed DH to be a deck that can also not go face, I would say that's disingenuous.
You basically say Blizz is a bunch of morons, who don't know what cards they designed do.
I can assure you they were testing the class before the release and they were aware of both the fact that the new class will be stomping others and that the best variant will be aggro.
Seriously you think they are ignorant to a point, where they release a bunch of cards and they don't know what the cards will be doing?
The only thing they possibly/probably didn't predict accurately, was the margin by which the new class will outclass the rest. Don't be naive thinking they didn't release simple aggro deck and made it the best on purpose.
Yes, I do believe Blizz is a bunch of morons when it comes to unforeseen card interactions or viability of a certain combo, something they demonstrated many times in the past and recently. The fact they they nerfed so many cards just a week after launch is pretty telling in that regard lol.
For example, I think they were aware of the Kaelthas Twin Slice Inner Demon combo, but I don't think their tests showed a deck centered around that combo to be performing that well. Pre-nerf combo DH was basically just as viable as aggro btw, if not even stronger (since it was actually almost countering aggro with that insane amount of lifesteal), which kinda disprove your theory.
And why would they cater in particular to aggro players anyway? If anything, there are way more control players that hate aggro than the other way around (or at the very least the aggro-haters are a much more vocal bunch of people lol), so what would be Blizzard goal here? Alienating part of their player base with yet another "smorc" class? What would be the point?
I could see the argument for them wanting the new class to be very strong and popular, but definitely not to the point of it backfiring as it has right now. If that makes me naive, so be it I guess.
You basically say Blizz is a bunch of morons, who don't know what cards they designed do.
I can assure you they were testing the class before the release and they were aware of both the fact that the new class will be stomping others and that the best variant will be aggro.
Seriously you think they are ignorant to a point, where they release a bunch of cards and they don't know what the cards will be doing?
The only thing they possibly/probably didn't predict accurately, was the margin by which the new class will outclass the rest. Don't be naive thinking they didn't release simple aggro deck and made it the best on purpose.
Yes, I do believe Blizz is a bunch of morons when it comes to unforeseen card interactions or viability of a certain combo, something they demonstrated many times in the past and recently. The fact they they nerfed so many cards just a week after launch is pretty telling in that regard lol.
For example, I think they were aware of the Kaelthas Twin Slice Inner Demon combo, but I don't think their tests showed a deck centered around that combo to be performing that well. Pre-nerf combo DH was basically just as viable as aggro btw, if not even stronger (since it was actually almost countering aggro with that insane amount of lifesteal), which kinda disprove your theory.
And why would they cater in particular to aggro players anyway? If anything, there are way more control players that hate aggro than the other way around (or at the very least the aggro-haters are a much more vocal bunch of people lol), so what would be Blizzard goal here? Alienating part of their player base with yet another "smorc" class? What would be the point?
I could see the argument for them wanting the new class to be very strong and popular, but definitely not to the point of it backfiring as it has right now. If that makes me naive, so be it I guess.
Nerfs prove nothing, because the argument is countered very easily - selling packs.
As for why aggro, not control - Res Priest pretty much showed Control can get the same amount of hate or even more as long as it's broken enough. However aggro has few obvious advantages if your goal is for people to play the deck you want - lower skill required to pilot, shorter games and lower cost. This is plenty.
I am not saying Blizzard doesn't ever miss the mark. I am saying that in order to not be aware of what variant of the DH will be the best and that it will demolish entire meta, they would literally have to not play the deck at all. 5 games and you see the deck is obviously powerful. 5 more and you see it is probably the best. 5 more and you see it's broken.
Yeah, probably someone at Blizard did something like this before the release.
I wanna try a Control DH deck in wild but find no good decks. I hate aggro decks.
Demon Hunter is like "regular" hunter, in that it is at it's core designed to go face - and little else. Which is why you'll, at most, find some midrange variants lying about in between the aggro iterations. It's also why I find those two classes to be by far the least interesting ones in the game.
The problem is the first wave of nerfs were horrible and killed some cards that were key to the early game of those archetypes - in particular Aldrachi Warblades - but also hitting the cost of Skull of Gul'dan (instead of the discounts) basically impacted any archetype but aggro. Aggro doesn't care if he's refilling at 5 or 6 and in fact want to do other plays on turn 5 (discounted Priestess or TwinSlice + Glaivebound) and is the archetype that has the easier time activating Outcast for obvious reason.
If they weren't so damn quick nerfing the wrong cards and most importantly in the wrong ways, DH would be fine right now, or at least it wouldn't be a purely aggro class or its aggro archetype would be less oppressive. Battlefiend should have been the #1 target from the start, followed by either Priestess or, most importantly, the ability to play her on turn 5. People are still screaming about Altruis, but it's a lategame combo card not different that some other turn 7-8 combo powerplays some other classes have (Warrior with his Skipper combos, Rogue with her Hanar secret christmas-trees or Wand/Gala 0-cost cards BS). What's REALLY losing me the most games against DH is either 1) how quick and versatile their early game is and 2) turn-5 Priestess. Who care about Altruis. I always, aaalways would have a way to deal with a turn 7 Priestess, but turn 5 is just impossible to manage AND it goes too well with what the card does - killing a board of small minions, which is more likely on turn 5 than on turn 7. On turn 7 you're more likely to have something like a a 4/4 or 5/5 or whatever mid-sized minion on the board from a previous turn, and Priestess dropped from behind on that kind of board does jack shit. Raging Felscreamer should be the card to look at.
You basically say Blizz is a bunch of morons, who don't know what cards they designed do.
I can assure you they were testing the class before the release and they were aware of both the fact that the new class will be stomping others and that the best variant will be aggro.
Seriously you think they are ignorant to a point, where they release a bunch of cards and they don't know what the cards will be doing?
The only thing they possibly/probably didn't predict accurately, was the margin by which the new class will outclass the rest. Don't be naive thinking they didn't release simple aggro deck and made it the best on purpose.
Yes, I do believe Blizz is a bunch of morons when it comes to unforeseen card interactions or viability of a certain combo, something they demonstrated many times in the past and recently. The fact they they nerfed so many cards just a week after launch is pretty telling in that regard lol.
For example, I think they were aware of the Kaelthas Twin Slice Inner Demon combo, but I don't think their tests showed a deck centered around that combo to be performing that well. Pre-nerf combo DH was basically just as viable as aggro btw, if not even stronger (since it was actually almost countering aggro with that insane amount of lifesteal), which kinda disprove your theory.
And why would they cater in particular to aggro players anyway? If anything, there are way more control players that hate aggro than the other way around (or at the very least the aggro-haters are a much more vocal bunch of people lol), so what would be Blizzard goal here? Alienating part of their player base with yet another "smorc" class? What would be the point?
I could see the argument for them wanting the new class to be very strong and popular, but definitely not to the point of it backfiring as it has right now. If that makes me naive, so be it I guess.
Nerfs prove nothing, because the argument is countered very easily - selling packs.
As for why aggro, not control - Res Priest pretty much showed Control can get the same amount of hate or even more as long as it's broken enough. However aggro has few obvious advantages if your goal is for people to play the deck you want - lower skill required to pilot, shorter games and lower cost. This is plenty.
The selling pack argument doesn't really hold for me, I'm more inclined to believe people are incompetent rather than evil geniuses, but I guess we'll agree to disagree here.
As for the rest of your arguments... "Shorter games" is the only valid argument for me. "Lower cost" doesn't hold either, if they wanted they could push control by just making control cards less costly, or aggro cards more expensive. In fact, there are a lot of DH control cards that looks good on paper and are either in the basic or initiate set, and some of the best and KEY aggro cards right now are legendary and epic (the current aggro deck needs Kayn, Metamorphosis and Warglaives). I'm not touching the "easier to pilot" argument because I consider it BS, there are some control decks that are just as dumb to pilot as pure face decks - Res Priest you mentioned would be one of them. The only archetype that's been consistently harder to pilot than the others is Combo.
I am not saying Blizzard doesn't ever miss the mark. I am saying that in order to not be aware of what variant of the DH will be the best and that it will demolish entire meta, they would literally have to not play the deck at all. 5 games and you see the deck is obviously powerful. 5 more and you see it is probably the best. 5 more and you see it's broken.
You're really underestimating the power of an entire community testing and coming out with ideas and refinements for a deck. Week-one pre-nerf Demon Hunter, the purely aggro/swarm/face lists (running currently unplayed cards like Wrathscale Naga and Urzhul Horror), were actually the weakest, with more Midrange-ish list being superior (and slower than the current Tempo DH iteration) and Combo/OTK was also incredibly strong and definitely better than pure-aggro. So yeah, it doesn't just "take 5 games" and that's it to figure out everything as you imply.
If it was so easy to figure out, you'd also have to explain to me why absolutely nobody was running Warglaives pre-nerf, not in aggro decks especially, and now it's universally considered such a strong smorc card and basically a nerf candidate.
Guys I'm not disagreeing with the fact that the aggro archetype is too good or the best cards right now are aggro, what I have a problem with is the statement that DH was "designed as an aggro class", which is clearly not the case in my view. It happened to end that way because they fucked up, but it wasn't their initial intent / design. You have to distinguish the intent from the result, and I'm saying this because I think the class is fun and has potential to be "good" IF they rework it in the right way. Which is NOT nerfing everything to the ground btw.
For example Warglaives of Azzinoth imho isn't specifically designed to be a "go face" card, in fact it rewards you (with extra attacks) for hitting minions, not face, punishing you by making you take a crapload of damage in the process (problem that would be negated by comboing it with Blur, another control-designed card that isn't used); the real issue is that the rest of the aggro tools/plan is so good (in part because of what I consider bad nerfs as already explained) that Warglaives is now used as an aggro card to clear the way for your other minions, Priestess in particular, and then hit face. If the early aggro plan wasn't so good, Warglaives wouldn't be used in such a way (in fact it wasn't played in the early aggro lists). And aggro DH often doesn't care about taking all that damage since he aims to wrap up the game before that damage taken is relevant, which negates its drawback.
Early weapons are also not necessarily a sign of aggro too, Fiery War Axe used to be a defining weapon for Control Warrior for example, and Aldrachi Warblades would fit a similar spot too. Sure any weapon can be used to go face, but you can distinguish between a weapon designed to be an aggro card, such as Umberwing, and one designed to be a removal/control tool for the early game, such as Aldrachi.
Those AOEs are also not necessarily designed to be used in a tempo vs tempo matchup, especially Chaos Nova, that wouldn't hit your own minions if that was the case. Blade Dance is more versatile and would fit both, that I agree. It's not used in current tempo/aggro lists tho, which is telling.
Can't you equally say that Warglaives of Azzinoth is an aggressive card, because it affords you the opportunity to both clear minions and go face in the same turn - IE. letting you keep hold of the bord, while simultaneously forwarding your face-plan?
I agree that aggro wasn't necessarily the only archetype they wanted out of DH. But when you look at the discrepancy between how well it goes face, and how middling it is at control (it has no hard removal, and is light on lategame threats/value compared to say rogue), it's hard for me to imagine they didn't design DH with the premise of easy-to-pilot, fast decks in mind.
Depends on how you define "best." In terms of win-rate? LOLNO, Big Demon Hunter is far from the best. But it's wicked sweet.
The most disappointing thing about Demon Hunter is that, despite having so many cool and fun tools for control games, it's basically just a face deck. The balance is clearly off.
I can't really fault anyone for playing the face/tempo Demon Hunter, bland as it is, since it's incredibly good.
But dang is highlander or control demon hunter sweet. Coilfang Warlord is awesome. Kill something and get a 5/9 taunt is great. All the DH taunts are pretty cool, and they've got a lot of useful spells. There's nothing cooler than bombtraining someone with a lot of huge demons.
We could and I see your point, but... again, it wasn't designed for that kind of use in my opinion. When the cards were revealed before the expansion hit, my first thought was that it was a nice control weapon. A typical hyper aggro deck couldn't afford to run a 5-mana weapon (running it x2 nonetheless) that "only" does 3 face-damage at a time, and they're not even using all those durability charges on face most of the times either. It only works because 1) aggro DH doesn't run out of steam, so they can afford running high-cost cards without bricking and 2) clearing the way for Priestess is so gamewinning in itself that the weapon inclusion is justified.
It's a sort of an anomaly that an aggro deck can run so many mid/high costed cards, and it's because its drawing/discounting capabilities that allow it to do that.
You basically say Blizz is a bunch of morons, who don't know what cards they designed do.
I can assure you they were testing the class before the release and they were aware of both the fact that the new class will be stomping others and that the best variant will be aggro.
Seriously you think they are ignorant to a point, where they release a bunch of cards and they don't know what the cards will be doing?
The only thing they possibly/probably didn't predict accurately, was the margin by which the new class will outclass the rest. Don't be naive thinking they didn't release simple aggro deck and made it the best on purpose.
I certainly see how the weapon could be featured in a control deck, if the support is there - in something of a Gorehowl role. But aggro definitely can run a 5-mana weapon - Arcanite Reaper has been a staple of every pirate warrior, and that's less damage over time (albeit, warrior can and does run upgrade effects).
It's hard for either of us to know what was the intention behind these cards, and I think we have to look at the potency of the cards around them. IMO, they must have known aggro would be by far the strongest variant of Demon Hunter. Hence, if they want to say the designed DH to be a deck that can also not go face, I would say that's disingenuous.
Yes, I do believe Blizz is a bunch of morons when it comes to unforeseen card interactions or viability of a certain combo, something they demonstrated many times in the past and recently. The fact they they nerfed so many cards just a week after launch is pretty telling in that regard lol.
For example, I think they were aware of the Kaelthas Twin Slice Inner Demon combo, but I don't think their tests showed a deck centered around that combo to be performing that well. Pre-nerf combo DH was basically just as viable as aggro btw, if not even stronger (since it was actually almost countering aggro with that insane amount of lifesteal), which kinda disprove your theory.
And why would they cater in particular to aggro players anyway? If anything, there are way more control players that hate aggro than the other way around (or at the very least the aggro-haters are a much more vocal bunch of people lol), so what would be Blizzard goal here? Alienating part of their player base with yet another "smorc" class? What would be the point?
I could see the argument for them wanting the new class to be very strong and popular, but definitely not to the point of it backfiring as it has right now. If that makes me naive, so be it I guess.
Nerfs prove nothing, because the argument is countered very easily - selling packs.
As for why aggro, not control - Res Priest pretty much showed Control can get the same amount of hate or even more as long as it's broken enough. However aggro has few obvious advantages if your goal is for people to play the deck you want - lower skill required to pilot, shorter games and lower cost. This is plenty.
I am not saying Blizzard doesn't ever miss the mark. I am saying that in order to not be aware of what variant of the DH will be the best and that it will demolish entire meta, they would literally have to not play the deck at all. 5 games and you see the deck is obviously powerful. 5 more and you see it is probably the best. 5 more and you see it's broken.
Yeah, probably someone at Blizard did something like this before the release.
Very well put, IMO.
The selling pack argument doesn't really hold for me, I'm more inclined to believe people are incompetent rather than evil geniuses, but I guess we'll agree to disagree here.
As for the rest of your arguments... "Shorter games" is the only valid argument for me. "Lower cost" doesn't hold either, if they wanted they could push control by just making control cards less costly, or aggro cards more expensive. In fact, there are a lot of DH control cards that looks good on paper and are either in the basic or initiate set, and some of the best and KEY aggro cards right now are legendary and epic (the current aggro deck needs Kayn, Metamorphosis and Warglaives). I'm not touching the "easier to pilot" argument because I consider it BS, there are some control decks that are just as dumb to pilot as pure face decks - Res Priest you mentioned would be one of them. The only archetype that's been consistently harder to pilot than the others is Combo.
You're really underestimating the power of an entire community testing and coming out with ideas and refinements for a deck. Week-one pre-nerf Demon Hunter, the purely aggro/swarm/face lists (running currently unplayed cards like Wrathscale Naga and Urzhul Horror), were actually the weakest, with more Midrange-ish list being superior (and slower than the current Tempo DH iteration) and Combo/OTK was also incredibly strong and definitely better than pure-aggro. So yeah, it doesn't just "take 5 games" and that's it to figure out everything as you imply.
If it was so easy to figure out, you'd also have to explain to me why absolutely nobody was running Warglaives pre-nerf, not in aggro decks especially, and now it's universally considered such a strong smorc card and basically a nerf candidate.