Disclaimer: this is not intended as an authoritative analysis. I am fairly new to Hearthstone. I mostly play Arena, so my analysis might be less well-suited to constructed play. I think I’m decent, but not excellent. My win-rate is 0.66 after 450 games.
My intention with this post is to help offer some general categories and ways to think about Hearthstone cards, particularly legendary cards. My expectation is that my conclusions about how good these cards are will be helpful to some, but that I'll be mistaken on some of this. I look forward to the ensuing discussion, and being corrected by more experienced players.
Minion cards play different roles. I am roughly categorizing them in three roles, though further distinction is certainly possible: Comeback, Reach, and Tempo. A Comeback minion is one that can help you recover when you are behind (one obvious example would be Deathwing). A Reach minion is one that you can be used aggressively to do tremendous burst damage (one obvious example would be Leeroy Jenkins). A Tempo minion is the more broad category of a minion that has good value for the cost, and that helps you either in the challenge to gain control of the board, or to firm up your grip on the board (one obvious example would be The Beast).
Given that Legendary cards fulfill one or more of these roles, my analysis of them is based on roughly three factors: the value of the role, how well it fulfills that role, and its vulnerability. Vulnerability has to do with how much benefit you get if it gets silenced or removed. Obviously, immediate benefit, such as a dream card from Ysera, factors significantly. Obviously, if you want to play cards that are especially vulnerable to silence, consider throwing Ancient or Youthful Brewmasters in your deck so you can replay them.
The value of the role has a huge impact on what cards I have come to appreciate, and which ones I have concluded are really overrated. The most valuable role to me is the Comeback card. Given the choice between something like Hogger, which will be helpful if I’m already ahead, and something like Baron Geddon, that will help me to recover, I’ll take Baron Geddon most of the time. Not to pick on Hogger, but I don’t think it contributes a lot to winning games that you would otherwise lose. A good Comeback card can win you games you would otherwise lose. I am undecided between the value of Tempo cards and Reach cards. I think they’re fairly balanced in value, and it comes down to how well the card fulfills the role.
Fulfilling the Role: This card would suck in pretty much any other deck, but I do think it is underrated because it is Shaman specific, and Shamans have tools to make it good. If you have a Rockbiter weapon or a Flametongue totem, you can do great burst damage. If you don’t, though, the stats are pretty bad. It’s a bit on the gimmicky side for my taste. If I’m drafting Arena and I happen to have several Rockbiters and Flametongue totems, I might take it.
Vulnerability: Because it has charge, it’s actually really safe against removals. This card is primarily about immediate benefit. Silence will remove a lot of abilities and leave a crummy 3/5, but at least you’ll get the benefit first.
I expect some will disagree about this one. I see the value of Alexstraza being primarily offensive, though I recognize it can also be used defensively. That versatility is a plus, but it seems like a weird card choice in most decks if it’s intended to be used defensively. If you’re that behind, the heal seems unlikely to help much. LS’s Warlock deck is a notable exception to this rule.
Fulfilling the Role: This all depends on the deck. In a warrior deck where you can drop it and then charge it, if your opponent has no taunt up, you can drop your opponent to 7 health with just two cards (and if you can get Gorehowl up the turn before, it’s a guaranteed kill in one turn with three cards, assuming the weapon isn’t sniped and there is no taunt). This is gimmicky, but crazy powerful. Similarly, it can be brutal in a Mage burn deck. If your goal is to control the board though and you’re already doing damage to the hero, when you drop it, it negates any damage to the enemy hero you’ve already done. That’s kind of lame. Assuming it’s in the right deck, and it’s not used stupidly (both of which should be reasonable assumptions for any Reach card), I rate it very highly.
Vulnerability: Silence does nothing, and removal is a bummer, but its ability is a battlecry.
Archmage Antonidas – Reach/Tempo (Ranked 6 out of 8 for Reach, 6 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: As a Reach card, it’s brutal if you have spells and if it doesn’t get silenced or removed. If you have a cheap spell in your hand, you can chain fireballs and murder your opponent fast. But it’s vulnerable as a Reach card because the high cost means you probably will only get one fireball out of it, if any, on the turn you drop it. You’re also in trouble of being able to do much with it even if it survives, because if you don’t have any spells, it’s one damage lower and one cost higher than a Boulderfist Ogre. That’s really lame.
However, as a Tempo card, I think it’s good. If you can drop it with one spell, great, you get a free fireball out of it, and it forces removal. The result is very efficient for you, and a sizeable gain in tempo.
Vulnerability: This one’s mediocre. If it gets silenced right away, the gain is one fireball. It’s still a gain for you, but it’s definitely more vulnerable than some.
Fulfilling the Role: The weakness of this card is that its role is VERY niche. If you drop it when you have minions, you’ll kill your own stuff. BUT: the niche it is good at, which is helping you come back when you’re behind, it is better at than almost anything else, and it is the most valuable role. For this reason, I think Baron Geddon is one of the most underrated cards in Hearthstone. I almost never see it used, and I almost never see it talked about. This card has single-handedly won me games that I would have otherwise lost. In the recent analysis of the Hearthstone Meta, Sylvanas was touted as the best legendary because it’s the best Comeback card. I agree with the logic of valuing Comeback cards, but I think there’s an argument to be made that Baron Geddon does more for a comeback than Sylvanas. Sylvanas can be ignored or worked around (great as it is). Baron Geddon CANNOT be ignored.
Vulnerability: If it gets silenced right away, it becomes a 7/5 for 7, which isn’t great. But even then, you have the immediate benefit of the 2 damage to all minions at least once.
Fulfilling the Role: This is a wonderful card. I value card draw very, VERY highly, and combining the effect of a Loot Hoarder with spell power gives this card outstanding utility. This is great for any spell-heavy deck. It’s not going to win a game, but it’s awesome value.
Vulnerability: If you drop it when you cast a spell, and as a result kill something you otherwise would be short on, then you get great value out of it even if it gets silenced later. Still, silence is a problem because then you lose the card draw, and without the card draw, it’s a weak Kobold Geomancer.
Fulfilling the Role: Most people value the Harvest Golem very highly. 3 cost for a combined 4/4 is great value, and that part of it is deathrattle is really annoying. Cairne is 6 cost for an 8/10. Great, great value.
Vulnerability: While it’s no big deal at all if it’s killed right away, if it’s silenced, you have an expensive Chillwind Yeti. That’s really sad.
Fulfilling the Role: Obviously, this card is really lousy if you don’t have weapons. But this card definitely belongs in a Warrior deck or Rogue deck, and possibly Paladin and Shaman too. Turn your Truesilver Champion into an Ashbringer with a heal, or a Doombringer into a 3/9.
Vulnerability: On one hand, it isn’t vulnerable because the ability is a battlecry, and the stats of the minion aren’t awful. On the other hand, it makes the weapon and even more juicy target for an Ooze.
Cenarius – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 12 out of 14 for Comeback, 8 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: One of the biggest strength of the Druid class is the flexibility, which makes this minion an instant pick for me in Arena. If you’re desperate, it can function as an okay Comeback Card by giving you three units for a total value of 9/12 for 9, with Taunt. Ideally though, you already have minions up when you play it, and then you buff the hell out of them and win the game. As a Tempo Card, it’s about as close to an “I Win” button as you can get, if you can play it right. Considering you need to already have some tempo in order for it to be effective, I don’t rank it as highly as I think many do. I’m partial to cards that help me build momentum, rather than solidify it.
Vulnerability: This one is super safe because of the battlecry, and the sheer number of targets.
Fulfilling the Role: This is a super, super niche card. The role is very valuable, but the fulfillment of it is SO vulnerable that I consider it to be a terrible card. You lose your hand, which means it’s a hail Mary play.
Vulnerability: VERY high, because Taunt puts you in trouble, and removal loses you the game.
Fulfilling the Role: Rogue combos can be a little iffy, but with good deck construction and good play, VanCleef can easily be a 6/6 or an 8/8 for 3. That’s frikkin’ stupidly good value, and Tempo cards are all about getting good value.
Vulnerability: No immediate benefit, and silence brings it down to a 2/2 for 3. Highly vulnerable.
Fulfilling the Role: RNG is sometimes tolerable, if the effect is powerful enough (see Ragnaros). But these inventions are not good enough, except for the Homing Chicken card draw. The others are as likely to hurt you as help you.
Vulnerability: It’s a battlecry, and 6/6 for 6 is fine value, so it’s fairly safe.
Fulfilling the Role: If you’re able to give it an Inner Rage or Cruel Taskmaster Hit, it’s a 12/9 charge. That’s ridiculously good. If you can’t activate it though, it’s pretty crappy value. To put it into perspective, let’s compare it to Al’Akir, who most people hate. If Al’Akir has a rockbiter weapon, it’s the same burst damage: 12. If you don’t have the card you need to improve these legendaries, either Rockbiter or Inner Rage, Al’Akir does 6, while Grommash does 4. Crazy as it may sound, and I’m sure some will criticize me for it, I think that makes Al’Akir better.
Vulnerability: It’s a charge, so it’s pretty safe. If it gets silenced next turn, it’s back to a 4/9 for 8, but you will still have gotten the initial damage out.
Gruul – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 7 out of 14 for Comeback, 10 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: Primarily it’s a Tempo card, and I think an underrated one. It gets out of control so quickly that it demands immediate removal, or even suiciding your guys into it to kill it while you still can. For that reason, I think it’s also okay, though not ideal, as a Comeback card.
Vulnerability: If it gets silenced, it’s still a 7/7 for 8, which isn’t too bad. If it’s removed, you get no immediate benefit from it though.
Harrison Jones – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 14 out of 14 for Comeback, 18 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: I’ve never played with this one, so I’m hesitant to comment. I put Oozes in every constructed deck I play, so having another counter to weapons, one that also grants me card draw, sounds very appealing. Against a non-weapon deck, meh, it’s okay.
Fulfilling the Role: I think Hogger fulfills a niche role very well, the niche role of “if you’re ahead, and your opponent has no removal or silence, it gets out of control and wins you the game.” Unfortunately, I think that’s a stupid role. I don’t need to dominate my opponent, I need to get him down to zero health. All Hogger does is solidify your lead, but if you’re behind at all, it’s an overpriced Silver Hand Knight. I think this is one of the most overestimated cards in the game.
Vulnerability: Pretty high, because silence makes Hogger terrible. There is not enough immediate value. But, because the initial minion is a taunt, it does help to protect Hogger a little.
Fulfilling the Role: I see this card as kind of a weak VanCleef. It requires playing lots of cards in order to be really good, and it’s a little pricey for that to be possible. If you can play it on turn ten and play a couple of other cards immediately with it, you can get good value.
Vulnerability: Little immediate benefit unless you can drop cards on the turn you drop Illidan. Otherwise, very vulnerable to silence or removal. Silence isn’t too bad, as it would be a 7/5 for 6, which is okay.
King Krush – Comeback/Reach (Ranked 10 out of 14 for Comeback, 5 out of 8 for Reach)
Fulfilling the Role: I consider it to be legitimate as a mediocre Comeback card because it’s a charge with high stats. It’s a bit pricey for its stats, but you can use it to suddenly remove a Ragnaros or something if you need to. Optimally, it’s good for reach though (if complimenting the Hunter’s One Turn Kill counts as Reach).
Vulnerability: It is not vulnerable at all. All charge, nothing to silence, not optimal stat value though.
Fulfilling the Role: I rank Mukla pretty low. Obviously it’s better in a Hunter deck, but I don’t want to give Shattered Sun Cleric buff cards to my opponent. A 5/5 for 3 is crazy good value, but if you take away 2/2 for the benefit to your opponent, it’s weak. More than that though, it provides so much flexibility to your opponent to get good trades. Blech.
Vulnerability: Not vulnerable at all to silence, just good stats. If it gets removed quickly though, all you’ve done is help your opponent.
Leeroy Jenkins – Comeback/Reach (Ranked 11 out of 14 for Comeback, 2 out of 8 for Reach)
Fulfulling the Role: Like King Krush, it can kind of help as removal of a critical unit, and hence help as a Comeback card. Unlike King Krush, its stat value is great in my opinion. Losing HP for attack is awesome for a charge unit, and its low cost makes it outstanding for aggression. You can combo with Inner Rage or Windfury or something to do insane burst damage for its cost.
Vulnerability: It’ll die immediately after the turn you play it, no doubt, but the point of it is the immediate benefit, so I say low vulnerability.
Lord Jaraxxus – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 3 out of 14 for Comeback, Ranked 1 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: This is such a funky card, it’s hard to compare it to others. Nonetheless, as a Comeback card it is unbelievably good. If you’re REALLY far behind, you’ll lose anyway, but between the potential heal and the crazy abilities, it can definitely win games you’d otherwise lose if you aren’t too far behind. If it’s a balanced game where you’re fighting for Tempo, it’s pretty much an “I Win” button.
Vulnerability: Replacing the hero means no vulnerability. Pray you aren’t against a Mage burn deck though.
Fulfilling the Role: What a potentially effing annoying card. I’ve never played with it, but I’ve had it played against me, and if I’m low on minions, it annoys me to no end. In the right deck, it’s risky but potentially really confounding.
Vulnerability: Vulnerable to an early Ironbeak Owl silence, but not to any spells.
Fulfilling the Role: I’m not really a fan. Unless you have Soulfires or Moonfires (and in my opinion, you really shouldn’t have Moonfires anyway), it’s really vulnerable. If it doesn’t get silenced or removed right away, and you happen to have Fireballs or something in your hand, you’re going to win next turn. This makes it the kind of high risk, high reward card that I’m not a fan of, personally. But it certainly has potential in its niche role as a Reach card.
Vulnerability: High health makes it tough to kill, but a silence or quick removal does make it lousy. It’s extremely unlikely to have any immediate value.
Fulfilling the Role: I see this as the evil twin to Lorewalker Cho. Where Cho discourages early spells, Manastorm encourages them. I see it as way too risky to put in a deck. If your opponent can pound you with a quick Pyroblast or Sprint, you’re going to be in tough shape, tempting as the 4/4 for 2 is to get you early board control.
Vulnerability: It isn’t vulnerable to being silenced or something, just vulnerable to coming back to bite you by letting your opponent play big spells early.
Fulfilling the Role: A rare case of a legendary that gives card draw. I don’t like the RNG nature of it, as much as I like card draw, and I think I’d prefer the effect of Lorewalker Cho, which has identical stats. It’s far more vulnerable to silence.
Vulnerability: High HP for an early unit gives it a chance of surviving, but a quick silence or removal spell will make it worthless. It does have the possible immediate benefit of a card draw, but it’s RNG.
Fulfilling the Role: This is a frikkin’ goofy card. I haven’t played it, but it sounds fun. It’s a rare case of a mind-games card. If you happen to be quick in your decision making, this card could give you a great advantage over slower-moving opponents. I’d love to try this out with a Hunter or Mage deck with lots of secrets. Overall, it’s okay. I think it could win games by causing mistakes from your opponent, or it could just be an expensive 8/8.
Vulnerability: If it’s silenced, it’s still a hefty unit, just expensive for its stats.
Fulfilling the Role: Obviously, this only good in a Murloc deck. If you’re playing Murlocs, absolutely play it.
Vulnerability: Charge helps to make it not vulnerable, though removing other Murlocs on the field weakens it.
Onyxia – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 6 out of 14 for Comeback, 7 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: It’s better for Tempo then Comeback, but if you’re behind it does give you quick board presence. Play it when your opponent is low on cards, so it’s unlikely they’ll have a mass removal card. Potentially, it’s a 14/14 for 9. That’s just dumb. Overall, I like it more now than I did a week ago.
Vulnerability: If the whelps get wiped out, it’s not a great card. But at least it isn’t vulnerable to silence.
Prophet Velen – Reach/Tempo (Ranked 7 out of 8 for Reach, 14 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: This is another example of a funky ability that makes for a really difficult card to evaluate. I was lucky enough to open this card in a pack, but I haven’t used it much. It seems optimal in a Shadowform deck (which I don’t have). I have it listed as Reach because you can have fun with Mind Blast. Unless you happen to have one on the turn you drop Velen, it is vulnerable to not doing much for you, other than being a nice, fat 7/7 for 7, which isn’t bad. I trust my own judgment less on this card than most others, I truly think I don’t use it well. Artosis had it in his Blizzcon deck.
Vulnerability: Pretty high. Silence makes it just average, and it’s tough to get quick benefit from it.
Ragnaros – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 4 out of 14 for Comeback, 2 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: This card is extremely highly rated, and appropriately so. The sheer power of it makes it one of the best as a Tempo card, and decent as a Comeback card (better against a couple of large targets than a bunch of small ones). The RNG nature of it is its only real weakness.
Vulnerability: One of the best things about it is the immediate benefit, and the fact that if it is silenced, it makes it an 8/8 that will then pound on your face.
Fulfilling the Role: I referred earlier to the recent post about the Hearthstone Meta, and how it ranked Sylvanas as the best Legendary in the game. I don’t necessarily agree with that claim, but it is undeniably an excellent card for its role, and it is one of the most important. I opened it in my second pack, so I’ve played with it a fair amount, and one weakness of it is that it isn’t very good against a lot of 4 damage or lower enemies. If your opponent is smart, they’ll ignore Sylvanas and go for your face, and then you don’t have the option to suicide it into something to activate the deathrattle. If you can combo it with Sunfury Protector or Defender of Argus, it’s a lot better.
Vulnerability: Deathrattle obviously makes it painfully vulnerable to silence, but not vulnerable to removal. You really want it to die.
Fulfilling the Role: This one is hard for me to judge. 9/7 for 6 is great value, but if the deathrattle goes off, and you subtract that value from it, you get a 6/4 for 6, which is really bad. I’d have to play around with it to decide how much I like it. It has definite potential.
Vulnerability: If it dies quickly, it makes things worse for you. At least it isn’t vulnerable to silence.
Fulfilling the Role: It’s a great niche role, and I expect it to be great as the Meta evolves. Currently, taunt is not valued very highly, so this card is iffy.
Vulnerability: It’s a battlecry, so it isn’t vulnerable. It’s just vulnerable to being a Chillwind Yeti for two more cost if you can’t play it when your opponent has a taunt on the field.
Tinkmaster Overspark – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 13 out of 14 for Comeback, 21 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: I really, really don’t like RNG stuff like this. It’s okay to use against a big opponent, because even if they become a 5/5 with no abilities, you’re better off for it. Otherwise, it’s gimmicky and random, and really not worth much to me. I could see it having a place in a non-Shaman, non-Mage deck that could really use a hex to get around stuff like Tirion Fordring.
Vulnerability: It’s a battlecry, so the only vulnerability is to RNG.
Tirion Fordring – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 5 out of 14 for Comeback, 4 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: This is one of my favorite cards. Divine shield, solid stats, and a crazy good deathrattle. If it doesn’t get hexed or silenced, it’s a huge game-changer.
Vulnerability: Highly vulnerable to hex or silence. No immediate benefit, and if the deathrattle doesn’t go off, you’re going to be one sad Paladin.
Ysera – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 9 out of 14 for Comeback, 3 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: Another one of my favorites. I spent my first 1600 dust crafting this bad boy. Some cards are better than others, so the RNG can be problematic, but all the cards are good (Ysera Awakens can be a game winner), and it makes games really fun and interesting.
Vulnerability: It has the immediate benefit of at least one card, which helps reduce its vulnerability. It also has a one in five chance of making the silence null and void, because if you pull a Dream card, you can bring it back into your hand and then play it again.
Attached are pictures of my excel spreadsheet, with summaries of my tentative (and inevitably highly controversial!) rankings of the Legendary cards by their roles (if they have multiple roles, I evaluate them multiple times, based specifically on those roles). Obviously some of this is just guesswork and estimations. I’m evaluating them in terms of vulnerability based on what their value is if they get immediately silenced, what their value is if they get immediately hexed, and what their value is if they are immediately killed. The way I’m evaluating quick removal, I’m putting Charges, Battlecries and Deathrattles all at tied for first, because the value of those abilities will happen even if they are removed next turn. For vulnerability to silence, Charges and Battlecries are still tied for first, though Deathrattles are super vulnerable. Vulnerability to Hex is all about whether there is immediate benefit (Deathwing has immediate benefit, but also puts you in a position that is especially vulnerable to Hex, so he’s an exception).
The class specific comment has a question mark if it’s a general idea, and no question mark if it truly is only useful to certain classes. I’m not including Old Murk-Eye, because it’s so specific to Murloc decks.
I personally believe I cannot directly criticize your rankings because it's simply not the way I think, it'll take some time to process as I head off for tonight. I do see some cards that are out of place in certain categories such as Harrison Jones, Valen, Pagle, Mukla. I'm going to leave it at a simple thank you at the moment for a very intriguing read. There are some points that I disagree with and others that made me reconsider my own judgments a bit, and a little inconsistency in terms of comparing additive stats with The Beast, Harvest Golem, Cairne, but discrediting Hogger somewhat harshly as a 6 mana 6/6. A comparison to SHK is fine, but it's fair to say SHK is an amazing card and falling a little short of that standard isn't bad.
I'm glad to see Alexstrasza so high up there at first glance, nothing really screams "go time!" like chipping off double digit health and dropping an 8/8.
I really don't get why people rate Thalanos so highly. Yes, he is a 2-for-1, but 2-what for 1-what? With +1 Spell Damage for 2 mana, he is a Kobold Geomancer with half the stats, with "Deathrattle: Draw a card" he is a double cost, half attack Loot Hoarder. Imo he is one of, if not the absolute best target for a silence, because what are you left with? A 1/1 for 2 cost, A silenced Kobold is a 2/2 for 2, a silenced Loot Hoarder is a 2/1 for just 1. And not only is it weaker silenced, it is also a 2-for-1 silence.
With 2 attack, Kobold and Loot Hoarder also trade way better than Thalanos. Let's put them in a 'on-board' scenario: I have a 1 cost Loot Hoarder on my side of the field, you have a 2 cost Bloodmage Thalanos. If either attacks the other, who got the better value, we both got a card, I paid 1 mana, you paid 2. I win. Now we switch the Loot Hoarder for a Kobold Geomancer, and again the 2 opposing minions do battle, this time we have both paid 2 mana, you get a card, I do not, but I still have a minion on the board, with +1 Spell Damage, a bit more debatable, but I still think I win.
As the old saying goes: "A card on the board is worth 2 in the hand"
By the time Thalnos hits the board, his job is already done. At a cheap 2 mana, he can be played without worry because of his deathrattle and used to combo into spells. 2 mana SD+1 is amazing, how many times were you annoyed at that Kobold hitting the field when you're going to get hit by a spell? After the spell gains higher value, you're effectively silencing a weaker Loot Hoarder, at 1/1 his stats leave much to be desired, but he already has everything else. If he's silenced, you lose out on a card draw, but the added benefit of SD+1 is simply perfect for a card that pays itself back. He's definitely a mid-late game card.
Looking at the bigger picture, he's another source of much needed Spell Damage that pays for himself and deters everything but silence. You literally have 2 options for spell damage at 3 mana - Kobold and Thalnos. What other card can boast that it is a major threat at 2 mana? The opponent simply cannot ignore him because of the SD+1 while the option to remove him may be out of the way and incur lost value or limitation of mana due to his draw.
The value of Thalnos is apparent when you look at him in the grand scheme of a deck rather than a standalone card. Pitting Kobold, Loot Hoarder, and Thalnos against each other in one on one scenarios is simply faulty logic.
Thalnos ain't a card that you want to throw out at turn 2, you generally want to keep him in your hand and only play him the turn before, or right before you are about to use a spell. The same generally goes for the Kobold. The "body" value of them two only matters when you desperately have to play him just to get something on the board. The main difference is that the Kobold survives the 1 dmg ping hero powers and therefor might draw a removal to get rid of him, while Thalnos is essentially "free" as he cycles himself. Even if anyone of them gets silenced they have pretty much already done their work already, so now the opponent has 1 less silence.
As for when you compare Thalnos with the Loot Hoarder. Their uses are so different from each other due to the spell damage so they can barely be compared. Now in a scenario when they actually trade they would go equal as the hoarder actually is a 2 mana card, not 1 as you considered in your example.
Edit: Well, I write too slowly. Everyone seems to be in consensus though.
I think a lot of Thalanos "haters" make the mistake of considering him an early game card due to the cost. I personally see it more as a mid/late game card.
I do not consider him a late game card, I just don't think 1/1 for 2 is good value, even with the effects. Maybe it's because he is a legendary, and I have this idea of legendaries being excellent value niche cards, and he's more like a decent value multi-purpose card. I dusted mine for a Snake Trap
Sorry mate, but dusting Thalnos for a Snake Trap is a huge mistake. I just crafted mine a couple of days ago. Seeing people play around holy nova/Consecration etc. by playing 3hp Minions and clearing their board with a Thalnos + AE combo is simply amazing. It rarely gets silenced and even if it does, it forces the opponent to 'waste' a silence on a 2drop that already provided great value.
Sorry mate, but dusting Thalnos for a Snake Trap is a huge mistake. I just crafted mine a couple of days ago. Seeing people play around holy nova/Consecration etc. by playing 3hp Minions and clearing their board with a Thalnos + AE combo is simply amazing. It rarely gets silenced and even if it does, it forces the opponent to 'waste' a silence on a 2drop that already provided great value.
Kobold Geomancer? Dalaran Mage (I know he's a 3, but still)? Same effect, better att/hp. Have you ever seen what Snake Trap can do when combo'd with a Starving Buzzard or a Scavenging Hyena? Or even a Timber Wolf + UtH play. 3 1/1 snakes for 2. Yes your opponent needs to attack one of your minions to trigger it, but a well timed Snake Trap can be the difference between win and lose for a Hunter
I'm not saying Snake Trap is bad, all I'm saying is it's not worth dusting Thalnos.
Kobold Geomancer is aight but its stats aren't great, Dalaran Mage is dead weight and a terrible card. Just about as useless as Silverback Patriarch. I think we can both agree that Novice Engineer/Loothoarder are very good cards even though their stats are rather bad. Thalnos' stats are even worse but that's not the point. He would be just as good as he is now even if he was a 0/1 minion. It's great b/c it gives you the versatility of +1 SP for 2 Mana AND a card draw/silence investment. Azure Drake is basically its bigger brother but due to its high mana cost, it does not even come close in terms of strategic potential.
Sorry mate, but dusting Thalnos for a Snake Trap is a huge mistake. I just crafted mine a couple of days ago. Seeing people play around holy nova/Consecration etc. by playing 3hp Minions and clearing their board with a Thalnos + AE combo is simply amazing. It rarely gets silenced and even if it does, it forces the opponent to 'waste' a silence on a 2drop that already provided great value.
Kobold Geomancer? Dalaran Mage (I know he's a 3, but still)? Same effect, better att/hp. Have you ever seen what Snake Trap can do when combo'd with a Starving Buzzard or a Scavenging Hyena? Or even a Timber Wolf + UtH play. 3 1/1 snakes for 2. Yes your opponent needs to attack one of your minions to trigger it, but a well timed Snake Trap can be the difference between win and lose for a Hunter
I think you're obsessing with the fact that Thalnos is a legendary and therefore should have some amazing one of a kind effect like Ysera or Ragnaros. Try looking at it this way: Imagine if Thalnos was a rare card. You could have 2 of those guys in your deck. So in 1 card, you combined a loot hoarder and koblod with the only "downside" being that it is a 1/1. Thalnos is a legendary because it provides so much in one card that having two in a deck would make it a first pick for nearly every single deck.
And a well timed *anything* can be the difference between a win and lose for any class.
edit: Also, you really need to understand that Thalnos is not an early game card just because it is 2 mana cost. It is not meant to be played as a run of the mill 2 mana cost card. Would you be playing UTH + timberwolf immediately on turn 2 just because they're both 1 mana costs and add up to 2? Heck, would you ever even just play a straight timberwolf at turn 1?
Spell power minions are pretty useful, and with low cost and a replacement card when he dies, it's definitely good. But I don't know why it's a legendary. It's not THAT good. If it were a 3/3, or had sp+2, or something else, maybe.
Spell power minions are pretty useful, and with low cost and a replacement card when he dies, it's definitely good. But I don't know why it's a legendary. It's not THAT good. If it were a 3/3, or had sp+2, or something else, maybe.
I disagree. In its current state, I consider it one of the best legendaries out there. Your intuition is correct but you're too focused on its stats which - as I pointed out previously - are absolutely irrelevant.
Sorry mate, but dusting Thalnos for a Snake Trap is a huge mistake. I just crafted mine a couple of days ago. Seeing people play around holy nova/Consecration etc. by playing 3hp Minions and clearing their board with a Thalnos + AE combo is simply amazing. It rarely gets silenced and even if it does, it forces the opponent to 'waste' a silence on a 2drop that already provided great value.
Kobold Geomancer? Dalaran Mage (I know he's a 3, but still)? Same effect, better att/hp. Have you ever seen what Snake Trap can do when combo'd with a Starving Buzzard or a Scavenging Hyena? Or even a Timber Wolf + UtH play. 3 1/1 snakes for 2. Yes your opponent needs to attack one of your minions to trigger it, but a well timed Snake Trap can be the difference between win and lose for a Hunter
I think you're obsessing with the fact that Thalnos is a legendary and therefore should have some amazing one of a kind effect like Ysera or Ragnaros. Try looking at it this way: Imagine if Thalnos was a rare card. You could have 2 of those guys in your deck. So in 1 card, you combined a loot hoarder and koblod with the only "downside" being that it is a 1/1. Thalnos is a legendary because it provides so much in one card that having two in a deck would make it a first pick for nearly every single deck.
I did say earlier that I may think him too weak because of his orange gem. If he was a blue, I might have had a different opinion of him
edit: Also, you really need to understand that Thalnos is not an early game card just because it is 2 mana cost. It is not meant to be played as a run of the mill 2 mana cost card. Would you be playing UTH + timberwolf immediately on turn 2 just because they're both 1 mana costs and add up to 2? Heck, would you ever even just play a straight timberwolf at turn 1?
Once again, I have said this before, I do get that he isn't an early, single play minion, he is something you want to combo with another card immediately, I get that, I main Hunter, so I know the meaning of combo plays. Regarding UtH and Timberwolf, no, most of the time I would not play either on turn 2, let alone both. Playing Timberwolf on turn 1, that I have done, not when I'm going first though, but if my opponent drops a x/1, like the Worgen Infiltrator, I will sometimes play Timberwolf to try and force a trade if I have nothing better/need a clear board.
I understand the game pretty well thank you very much
There really should be no reason that he's a legendary, correct? He's a nobody in lore, a simple level 32 miniboss, so the idea of paying homage to him is far from reasonable. He holds no serious impact on the game or threat on the board like Cairne or The Beast. He's not unique like the effects of Baron Geddon, any of the dragons, Sylvanas, what have you. It's simply because he's too good to have two copies. If Thalnos was downgraded to an epic, you would see him everywhere and it would shift the balance of spell-focused decks completely.
Hmm, see him everywhere? Yes in its current state. Shift the balance of spell-focused decks completely? Maybe. OP? Considering the alternatives in the spell power department, I'd rather have him become epic 1/3 with 3 cost, just to fit the lore better, and obviously remove him from everyone's collection and credit 1600 dust.
There really should be no reason that he's a legendary, correct? He's a nobody in lore, a simple level 32 miniboss, so the idea of paying homage to him is far from reasonable. He holds no serious impact on the game or threat on the board like Cairne or The Beast. He's not unique like the effects of Baron Geddon, any of the dragons, Sylvanas, what have you. It's simply because he's too good to have two copies. If Thalnos was downgraded to an epic, you would see him everywhere and it would shift the balance of spell-focused decks completely.
His effects make him a 'boss' and he can be referred to as 'mini' due to his attributes. Fits pretty well, doesn't it? :)
if u think thalnos is not good or worth a legendary or not worth the cost u clearly miss insight in this game. No need to further discuss this really for u made ur statement which is based on pure oblivion
This is basically everything is needed to be said about Thalnos.
Going back to the topic at hand , the rating is strange to me simply because a lot of them provide such good utility in certain decks , and you can go and utilize them in so many decks with so many combos that makes the grading of them very inpartial in a lot of cases , but as mentioned before it's interesting to see your point of view .
P.S A lot of people like RNG factor in plays , no the fact that it works in x% cases , but simply the idea of risking the game to change the outcome of it.
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Disclaimer: this is not intended as an authoritative analysis. I am fairly new to Hearthstone. I mostly play Arena, so my analysis might be less well-suited to constructed play. I think I’m decent, but not excellent. My win-rate is 0.66 after 450 games.
My intention with this post is to help offer some general categories and ways to think about Hearthstone cards, particularly legendary cards. My expectation is that my conclusions about how good these cards are will be helpful to some, but that I'll be mistaken on some of this. I look forward to the ensuing discussion, and being corrected by more experienced players.
Minion cards play different roles. I am roughly categorizing them in three roles, though further distinction is certainly possible: Comeback, Reach, and Tempo. A Comeback minion is one that can help you recover when you are behind (one obvious example would be Deathwing). A Reach minion is one that you can be used aggressively to do tremendous burst damage (one obvious example would be Leeroy Jenkins). A Tempo minion is the more broad category of a minion that has good value for the cost, and that helps you either in the challenge to gain control of the board, or to firm up your grip on the board (one obvious example would be The Beast).
Given that Legendary cards fulfill one or more of these roles, my analysis of them is based on roughly three factors: the value of the role, how well it fulfills that role, and its vulnerability. Vulnerability has to do with how much benefit you get if it gets silenced or removed. Obviously, immediate benefit, such as a dream card from Ysera, factors significantly. Obviously, if you want to play cards that are especially vulnerable to silence, consider throwing Ancient or Youthful Brewmasters in your deck so you can replay them.
The value of the role has a huge impact on what cards I have come to appreciate, and which ones I have concluded are really overrated. The most valuable role to me is the Comeback card. Given the choice between something like Hogger, which will be helpful if I’m already ahead, and something like Baron Geddon, that will help me to recover, I’ll take Baron Geddon most of the time. Not to pick on Hogger, but I don’t think it contributes a lot to winning games that you would otherwise lose. A good Comeback card can win you games you would otherwise lose. I am undecided between the value of Tempo cards and Reach cards. I think they’re fairly balanced in value, and it comes down to how well the card fulfills the role.
Al’Akir the Windlord – Reach (Ranked 3 out of 8)
Fulfilling the Role: This card would suck in pretty much any other deck, but I do think it is underrated because it is Shaman specific, and Shamans have tools to make it good. If you have a Rockbiter weapon or a Flametongue totem, you can do great burst damage. If you don’t, though, the stats are pretty bad. It’s a bit on the gimmicky side for my taste. If I’m drafting Arena and I happen to have several Rockbiters and Flametongue totems, I might take it.
Vulnerability: Because it has charge, it’s actually really safe against removals. This card is primarily about immediate benefit. Silence will remove a lot of abilities and leave a crummy 3/5, but at least you’ll get the benefit first.
Alexstraza – Reach (Ranked 1 out of 8)
I expect some will disagree about this one. I see the value of Alexstraza being primarily offensive, though I recognize it can also be used defensively. That versatility is a plus, but it seems like a weird card choice in most decks if it’s intended to be used defensively. If you’re that behind, the heal seems unlikely to help much. LS’s Warlock deck is a notable exception to this rule.
Fulfilling the Role: This all depends on the deck. In a warrior deck where you can drop it and then charge it, if your opponent has no taunt up, you can drop your opponent to 7 health with just two cards (and if you can get Gorehowl up the turn before, it’s a guaranteed kill in one turn with three cards, assuming the weapon isn’t sniped and there is no taunt). This is gimmicky, but crazy powerful. Similarly, it can be brutal in a Mage burn deck. If your goal is to control the board though and you’re already doing damage to the hero, when you drop it, it negates any damage to the enemy hero you’ve already done. That’s kind of lame. Assuming it’s in the right deck, and it’s not used stupidly (both of which should be reasonable assumptions for any Reach card), I rate it very highly.
Vulnerability: Silence does nothing, and removal is a bummer, but its ability is a battlecry.
Archmage Antonidas – Reach/Tempo (Ranked 6 out of 8 for Reach, 6 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: As a Reach card, it’s brutal if you have spells and if it doesn’t get silenced or removed. If you have a cheap spell in your hand, you can chain fireballs and murder your opponent fast. But it’s vulnerable as a Reach card because the high cost means you probably will only get one fireball out of it, if any, on the turn you drop it. You’re also in trouble of being able to do much with it even if it survives, because if you don’t have any spells, it’s one damage lower and one cost higher than a Boulderfist Ogre. That’s really lame.
However, as a Tempo card, I think it’s good. If you can drop it with one spell, great, you get a free fireball out of it, and it forces removal. The result is very efficient for you, and a sizeable gain in tempo.
Vulnerability: This one’s mediocre. If it gets silenced right away, the gain is one fireball. It’s still a gain for you, but it’s definitely more vulnerable than some.
Baron Geddon – Comeback (Ranked 1 out of 14)
Fulfilling the Role: The weakness of this card is that its role is VERY niche. If you drop it when you have minions, you’ll kill your own stuff. BUT: the niche it is good at, which is helping you come back when you’re behind, it is better at than almost anything else, and it is the most valuable role. For this reason, I think Baron Geddon is one of the most underrated cards in Hearthstone. I almost never see it used, and I almost never see it talked about. This card has single-handedly won me games that I would have otherwise lost. In the recent analysis of the Hearthstone Meta, Sylvanas was touted as the best legendary because it’s the best Comeback card. I agree with the logic of valuing Comeback cards, but I think there’s an argument to be made that Baron Geddon does more for a comeback than Sylvanas. Sylvanas can be ignored or worked around (great as it is). Baron Geddon CANNOT be ignored.
Vulnerability: If it gets silenced right away, it becomes a 7/5 for 7, which isn’t great. But even then, you have the immediate benefit of the 2 damage to all minions at least once.
Bloodmage Thalnos – Tempo (Ranked 5 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: This is a wonderful card. I value card draw very, VERY highly, and combining the effect of a Loot Hoarder with spell power gives this card outstanding utility. This is great for any spell-heavy deck. It’s not going to win a game, but it’s awesome value.
Vulnerability: If you drop it when you cast a spell, and as a result kill something you otherwise would be short on, then you get great value out of it even if it gets silenced later. Still, silence is a problem because then you lose the card draw, and without the card draw, it’s a weak Kobold Geomancer.
Cairne Bloodhoof – Tempo (Ranked 20 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: Most people value the Harvest Golem very highly. 3 cost for a combined 4/4 is great value, and that part of it is deathrattle is really annoying. Cairne is 6 cost for an 8/10. Great, great value.
Vulnerability: While it’s no big deal at all if it’s killed right away, if it’s silenced, you have an expensive Chillwind Yeti. That’s really sad.
Captain Greenskin – Tempo (Ranked 9 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: Obviously, this card is really lousy if you don’t have weapons. But this card definitely belongs in a Warrior deck or Rogue deck, and possibly Paladin and Shaman too. Turn your Truesilver Champion into an Ashbringer with a heal, or a Doombringer into a 3/9.
Vulnerability: On one hand, it isn’t vulnerable because the ability is a battlecry, and the stats of the minion aren’t awful. On the other hand, it makes the weapon and even more juicy target for an Ooze.
Cenarius – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 12 out of 14 for Comeback, 8 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: One of the biggest strength of the Druid class is the flexibility, which makes this minion an instant pick for me in Arena. If you’re desperate, it can function as an okay Comeback Card by giving you three units for a total value of 9/12 for 9, with Taunt. Ideally though, you already have minions up when you play it, and then you buff the hell out of them and win the game. As a Tempo Card, it’s about as close to an “I Win” button as you can get, if you can play it right. Considering you need to already have some tempo in order for it to be effective, I don’t rank it as highly as I think many do. I’m partial to cards that help me build momentum, rather than solidify it.
Vulnerability: This one is super safe because of the battlecry, and the sheer number of targets.
Deathwing – Comeback (Ranked 8 out of 14)
Fulfilling the Role: This is a super, super niche card. The role is very valuable, but the fulfillment of it is SO vulnerable that I consider it to be a terrible card. You lose your hand, which means it’s a hail Mary play.
Vulnerability: VERY high, because Taunt puts you in trouble, and removal loses you the game.
Edwin VanCleef – Tempo (Ranked 11 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: Rogue combos can be a little iffy, but with good deck construction and good play, VanCleef can easily be a 6/6 or an 8/8 for 3. That’s frikkin’ stupidly good value, and Tempo cards are all about getting good value.
Vulnerability: No immediate benefit, and silence brings it down to a 2/2 for 3. Highly vulnerable.
Gelbin Mekkatorque – Tempo (Ranked 25 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: RNG is sometimes tolerable, if the effect is powerful enough (see Ragnaros). But these inventions are not good enough, except for the Homing Chicken card draw. The others are as likely to hurt you as help you.
Vulnerability: It’s a battlecry, and 6/6 for 6 is fine value, so it’s fairly safe.
Grommash Hellscream – Reach (Ranked 4 out of 8 for Reach)
Fulfilling the Role: If you’re able to give it an Inner Rage or Cruel Taskmaster Hit, it’s a 12/9 charge. That’s ridiculously good. If you can’t activate it though, it’s pretty crappy value. To put it into perspective, let’s compare it to Al’Akir, who most people hate. If Al’Akir has a rockbiter weapon, it’s the same burst damage: 12. If you don’t have the card you need to improve these legendaries, either Rockbiter or Inner Rage, Al’Akir does 6, while Grommash does 4. Crazy as it may sound, and I’m sure some will criticize me for it, I think that makes Al’Akir better.
Vulnerability: It’s a charge, so it’s pretty safe. If it gets silenced next turn, it’s back to a 4/9 for 8, but you will still have gotten the initial damage out.
Gruul – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 7 out of 14 for Comeback, 10 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: Primarily it’s a Tempo card, and I think an underrated one. It gets out of control so quickly that it demands immediate removal, or even suiciding your guys into it to kill it while you still can. For that reason, I think it’s also okay, though not ideal, as a Comeback card.
Vulnerability: If it gets silenced, it’s still a 7/7 for 8, which isn’t too bad. If it’s removed, you get no immediate benefit from it though.
Harrison Jones – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 14 out of 14 for Comeback, 18 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: I’ve never played with this one, so I’m hesitant to comment. I put Oozes in every constructed deck I play, so having another counter to weapons, one that also grants me card draw, sounds very appealing. Against a non-weapon deck, meh, it’s okay.
Vulnerability: None. All battlecry.
Hogger – Tempo (Ranked 22 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: I think Hogger fulfills a niche role very well, the niche role of “if you’re ahead, and your opponent has no removal or silence, it gets out of control and wins you the game.” Unfortunately, I think that’s a stupid role. I don’t need to dominate my opponent, I need to get him down to zero health. All Hogger does is solidify your lead, but if you’re behind at all, it’s an overpriced Silver Hand Knight. I think this is one of the most overestimated cards in the game.
Vulnerability: Pretty high, because silence makes Hogger terrible. There is not enough immediate value. But, because the initial minion is a taunt, it does help to protect Hogger a little.
Illidan Stormrage – Tempo (Ranked 17 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: I see this card as kind of a weak VanCleef. It requires playing lots of cards in order to be really good, and it’s a little pricey for that to be possible. If you can play it on turn ten and play a couple of other cards immediately with it, you can get good value.
Vulnerability: Little immediate benefit unless you can drop cards on the turn you drop Illidan. Otherwise, very vulnerable to silence or removal. Silence isn’t too bad, as it would be a 7/5 for 6, which is okay.
King Krush – Comeback/Reach (Ranked 10 out of 14 for Comeback, 5 out of 8 for Reach)
Fulfilling the Role: I consider it to be legitimate as a mediocre Comeback card because it’s a charge with high stats. It’s a bit pricey for its stats, but you can use it to suddenly remove a Ragnaros or something if you need to. Optimally, it’s good for reach though (if complimenting the Hunter’s One Turn Kill counts as Reach).
Vulnerability: It is not vulnerable at all. All charge, nothing to silence, not optimal stat value though.
King Mukla – Tempo (Ranked 23 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: I rank Mukla pretty low. Obviously it’s better in a Hunter deck, but I don’t want to give Shattered Sun Cleric buff cards to my opponent. A 5/5 for 3 is crazy good value, but if you take away 2/2 for the benefit to your opponent, it’s weak. More than that though, it provides so much flexibility to your opponent to get good trades. Blech.
Vulnerability: Not vulnerable at all to silence, just good stats. If it gets removed quickly though, all you’ve done is help your opponent.
Leeroy Jenkins – Comeback/Reach (Ranked 11 out of 14 for Comeback, 2 out of 8 for Reach)
Fulfulling the Role: Like King Krush, it can kind of help as removal of a critical unit, and hence help as a Comeback card. Unlike King Krush, its stat value is great in my opinion. Losing HP for attack is awesome for a charge unit, and its low cost makes it outstanding for aggression. You can combo with Inner Rage or Windfury or something to do insane burst damage for its cost.
Vulnerability: It’ll die immediately after the turn you play it, no doubt, but the point of it is the immediate benefit, so I say low vulnerability.
Lord Jaraxxus – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 3 out of 14 for Comeback, Ranked 1 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: This is such a funky card, it’s hard to compare it to others. Nonetheless, as a Comeback card it is unbelievably good. If you’re REALLY far behind, you’ll lose anyway, but between the potential heal and the crazy abilities, it can definitely win games you’d otherwise lose if you aren’t too far behind. If it’s a balanced game where you’re fighting for Tempo, it’s pretty much an “I Win” button.
Vulnerability: Replacing the hero means no vulnerability. Pray you aren’t against a Mage burn deck though.
Lorewalker Cho – Tempo (Ranked 12 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: What a potentially effing annoying card. I’ve never played with it, but I’ve had it played against me, and if I’m low on minions, it annoys me to no end. In the right deck, it’s risky but potentially really confounding.
Vulnerability: Vulnerable to an early Ironbeak Owl silence, but not to any spells.
Malygos – Reach (Ranked 8 out of 8)
Fulfilling the Role: I’m not really a fan. Unless you have Soulfires or Moonfires (and in my opinion, you really shouldn’t have Moonfires anyway), it’s really vulnerable. If it doesn’t get silenced or removed right away, and you happen to have Fireballs or something in your hand, you’re going to win next turn. This makes it the kind of high risk, high reward card that I’m not a fan of, personally. But it certainly has potential in its niche role as a Reach card.
Vulnerability: High health makes it tough to kill, but a silence or quick removal does make it lousy. It’s extremely unlikely to have any immediate value.
Millhouse Manastorm – Tempo (Ranked 24 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: I see this as the evil twin to Lorewalker Cho. Where Cho discourages early spells, Manastorm encourages them. I see it as way too risky to put in a deck. If your opponent can pound you with a quick Pyroblast or Sprint, you’re going to be in tough shape, tempting as the 4/4 for 2 is to get you early board control.
Vulnerability: It isn’t vulnerable to being silenced or something, just vulnerable to coming back to bite you by letting your opponent play big spells early.
Nat Pagle – Tempo (Ranked 13 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: A rare case of a legendary that gives card draw. I don’t like the RNG nature of it, as much as I like card draw, and I think I’d prefer the effect of Lorewalker Cho, which has identical stats. It’s far more vulnerable to silence.
Vulnerability: High HP for an early unit gives it a chance of surviving, but a quick silence or removal spell will make it worthless. It does have the possible immediate benefit of a card draw, but it’s RNG.
Nozdormu – Tempo (Ranked 15 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: This is a frikkin’ goofy card. I haven’t played it, but it sounds fun. It’s a rare case of a mind-games card. If you happen to be quick in your decision making, this card could give you a great advantage over slower-moving opponents. I’d love to try this out with a Hunter or Mage deck with lots of secrets. Overall, it’s okay. I think it could win games by causing mistakes from your opponent, or it could just be an expensive 8/8.
Vulnerability: If it’s silenced, it’s still a hefty unit, just expensive for its stats.
Old Murk-Eye – Reach (Unranked)
Fulfilling the Role: Obviously, this only good in a Murloc deck. If you’re playing Murlocs, absolutely play it.
Vulnerability: Charge helps to make it not vulnerable, though removing other Murlocs on the field weakens it.
Onyxia – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 6 out of 14 for Comeback, 7 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: It’s better for Tempo then Comeback, but if you’re behind it does give you quick board presence. Play it when your opponent is low on cards, so it’s unlikely they’ll have a mass removal card. Potentially, it’s a 14/14 for 9. That’s just dumb. Overall, I like it more now than I did a week ago.
Vulnerability: If the whelps get wiped out, it’s not a great card. But at least it isn’t vulnerable to silence.
Prophet Velen – Reach/Tempo (Ranked 7 out of 8 for Reach, 14 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: This is another example of a funky ability that makes for a really difficult card to evaluate. I was lucky enough to open this card in a pack, but I haven’t used it much. It seems optimal in a Shadowform deck (which I don’t have). I have it listed as Reach because you can have fun with Mind Blast. Unless you happen to have one on the turn you drop Velen, it is vulnerable to not doing much for you, other than being a nice, fat 7/7 for 7, which isn’t bad. I trust my own judgment less on this card than most others, I truly think I don’t use it well. Artosis had it in his Blizzcon deck.
Vulnerability: Pretty high. Silence makes it just average, and it’s tough to get quick benefit from it.
Ragnaros – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 4 out of 14 for Comeback, 2 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: This card is extremely highly rated, and appropriately so. The sheer power of it makes it one of the best as a Tempo card, and decent as a Comeback card (better against a couple of large targets than a bunch of small ones). The RNG nature of it is its only real weakness.
Vulnerability: One of the best things about it is the immediate benefit, and the fact that if it is silenced, it makes it an 8/8 that will then pound on your face.
Sylvanas Windrunner – Comeback (Ranked 2 out of 14)
Fulfilling the Role: I referred earlier to the recent post about the Hearthstone Meta, and how it ranked Sylvanas as the best Legendary in the game. I don’t necessarily agree with that claim, but it is undeniably an excellent card for its role, and it is one of the most important. I opened it in my second pack, so I’ve played with it a fair amount, and one weakness of it is that it isn’t very good against a lot of 4 damage or lower enemies. If your opponent is smart, they’ll ignore Sylvanas and go for your face, and then you don’t have the option to suicide it into something to activate the deathrattle. If you can combo it with Sunfury Protector or Defender of Argus, it’s a lot better.
Vulnerability: Deathrattle obviously makes it painfully vulnerable to silence, but not vulnerable to removal. You really want it to die.
The Beast – Tempo (Ranked 19 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: This one is hard for me to judge. 9/7 for 6 is great value, but if the deathrattle goes off, and you subtract that value from it, you get a 6/4 for 6, which is really bad. I’d have to play around with it to decide how much I like it. It has definite potential.
Vulnerability: If it dies quickly, it makes things worse for you. At least it isn’t vulnerable to silence.
The Black Knight – Tempo (Ranked 16 out of 25)
Fulfilling the Role: It’s a great niche role, and I expect it to be great as the Meta evolves. Currently, taunt is not valued very highly, so this card is iffy.
Vulnerability: It’s a battlecry, so it isn’t vulnerable. It’s just vulnerable to being a Chillwind Yeti for two more cost if you can’t play it when your opponent has a taunt on the field.
Tinkmaster Overspark – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 13 out of 14 for Comeback, 21 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: I really, really don’t like RNG stuff like this. It’s okay to use against a big opponent, because even if they become a 5/5 with no abilities, you’re better off for it. Otherwise, it’s gimmicky and random, and really not worth much to me. I could see it having a place in a non-Shaman, non-Mage deck that could really use a hex to get around stuff like Tirion Fordring.
Vulnerability: It’s a battlecry, so the only vulnerability is to RNG.
Tirion Fordring – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 5 out of 14 for Comeback, 4 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: This is one of my favorite cards. Divine shield, solid stats, and a crazy good deathrattle. If it doesn’t get hexed or silenced, it’s a huge game-changer.
Vulnerability: Highly vulnerable to hex or silence. No immediate benefit, and if the deathrattle doesn’t go off, you’re going to be one sad Paladin.
Ysera – Comeback/Tempo (Ranked 9 out of 14 for Comeback, 3 out of 25 for Tempo)
Fulfilling the Role: Another one of my favorites. I spent my first 1600 dust crafting this bad boy. Some cards are better than others, so the RNG can be problematic, but all the cards are good (Ysera Awakens can be a game winner), and it makes games really fun and interesting.
Vulnerability: It has the immediate benefit of at least one card, which helps reduce its vulnerability. It also has a one in five chance of making the silence null and void, because if you pull a Dream card, you can bring it back into your hand and then play it again.
Attached are pictures of my excel spreadsheet, with summaries of my tentative (and inevitably highly controversial!) rankings of the Legendary cards by their roles (if they have multiple roles, I evaluate them multiple times, based specifically on those roles). Obviously some of this is just guesswork and estimations. I’m evaluating them in terms of vulnerability based on what their value is if they get immediately silenced, what their value is if they get immediately hexed, and what their value is if they are immediately killed. The way I’m evaluating quick removal, I’m putting Charges, Battlecries and Deathrattles all at tied for first, because the value of those abilities will happen even if they are removed next turn. For vulnerability to silence, Charges and Battlecries are still tied for first, though Deathrattles are super vulnerable. Vulnerability to Hex is all about whether there is immediate benefit (Deathwing has immediate benefit, but also puts you in a position that is especially vulnerable to Hex, so he’s an exception).
The class specific comment has a question mark if it’s a general idea, and no question mark if it truly is only useful to certain classes. I’m not including Old Murk-Eye, because it’s so specific to Murloc decks.
I personally believe I cannot directly criticize your rankings because it's simply not the way I think, it'll take some time to process as I head off for tonight. I do see some cards that are out of place in certain categories such as Harrison Jones, Valen, Pagle, Mukla. I'm going to leave it at a simple thank you at the moment for a very intriguing read. There are some points that I disagree with and others that made me reconsider my own judgments a bit, and a little inconsistency in terms of comparing additive stats with The Beast, Harvest Golem, Cairne, but discrediting Hogger somewhat harshly as a 6 mana 6/6. A comparison to SHK is fine, but it's fair to say SHK is an amazing card and falling a little short of that standard isn't bad.
I'm glad to see Alexstrasza so high up there at first glance, nothing really screams "go time!" like chipping off double digit health and dropping an 8/8.
I'll be back!
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You're not going crazy, I edit 2~3 times each post
I welcome any criticisms. I hope to learn as much as I hope to help. Looking forward to your comments.
I really don't get why people rate Thalanos so highly. Yes, he is a 2-for-1, but 2-what for 1-what? With +1 Spell Damage for 2 mana, he is a Kobold Geomancer with half the stats, with "Deathrattle: Draw a card" he is a double cost, half attack Loot Hoarder. Imo he is one of, if not the absolute best target for a silence, because what are you left with? A 1/1 for 2 cost, A silenced Kobold is a 2/2 for 2, a silenced Loot Hoarder is a 2/1 for just 1. And not only is it weaker silenced, it is also a 2-for-1 silence.
With 2 attack, Kobold and Loot Hoarder also trade way better than Thalanos. Let's put them in a 'on-board' scenario: I have a 1 cost Loot Hoarder on my side of the field, you have a 2 cost Bloodmage Thalanos. If either attacks the other, who got the better value, we both got a card, I paid 1 mana, you paid 2. I win. Now we switch the Loot Hoarder for a Kobold Geomancer, and again the 2 opposing minions do battle, this time we have both paid 2 mana, you get a card, I do not, but I still have a minion on the board, with +1 Spell Damage, a bit more debatable, but I still think I win.
As the old saying goes: "A card on the board is worth 2 in the hand"
By the time Thalnos hits the board, his job is already done. At a cheap 2 mana, he can be played without worry because of his deathrattle and used to combo into spells. 2 mana SD+1 is amazing, how many times were you annoyed at that Kobold hitting the field when you're going to get hit by a spell? After the spell gains higher value, you're effectively silencing a weaker Loot Hoarder, at 1/1 his stats leave much to be desired, but he already has everything else. If he's silenced, you lose out on a card draw, but the added benefit of SD+1 is simply perfect for a card that pays itself back. He's definitely a mid-late game card.
Looking at the bigger picture, he's another source of much needed Spell Damage that pays for himself and deters everything but silence. You literally have 2 options for spell damage at 3 mana - Kobold and Thalnos. What other card can boast that it is a major threat at 2 mana? The opponent simply cannot ignore him because of the SD+1 while the option to remove him may be out of the way and incur lost value or limitation of mana due to his draw.
The value of Thalnos is apparent when you look at him in the grand scheme of a deck rather than a standalone card. Pitting Kobold, Loot Hoarder, and Thalnos against each other in one on one scenarios is simply faulty logic.
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You're not going crazy, I edit 2~3 times each post
Thalnos ain't a card that you want to throw out at turn 2, you generally want to keep him in your hand and only play him the turn before, or right before you are about to use a spell. The same generally goes for the Kobold. The "body" value of them two only matters when you desperately have to play him just to get something on the board. The main difference is that the Kobold survives the 1 dmg ping hero powers and therefor might draw a removal to get rid of him, while Thalnos is essentially "free" as he cycles himself. Even if anyone of them gets silenced they have pretty much already done their work already, so now the opponent has 1 less silence.
As for when you compare Thalnos with the Loot Hoarder. Their uses are so different from each other due to the spell damage so they can barely be compared. Now in a scenario when they actually trade they would go equal as the hoarder actually is a 2 mana card, not 1 as you considered in your example.
Edit: Well, I write too slowly. Everyone seems to be in consensus though.
That he does, my mistake
I do not consider him a late game card, I just don't think 1/1 for 2 is good value, even with the effects. Maybe it's because he is a legendary, and I have this idea of legendaries being excellent value niche cards, and he's more like a decent value multi-purpose card. I dusted mine for a Snake Trap
All your opinions are now invalid.
Explain
^that.
Sorry mate, but dusting Thalnos for a Snake Trap is a huge mistake. I just crafted mine a couple of days ago. Seeing people play around holy nova/Consecration etc. by playing 3hp Minions and clearing their board with a Thalnos + AE combo is simply amazing. It rarely gets silenced and even if it does, it forces the opponent to 'waste' a silence on a 2drop that already provided great value.
Kobold Geomancer? Dalaran Mage (I know he's a 3, but still)? Same effect, better att/hp. Have you ever seen what Snake Trap can do when combo'd with a Starving Buzzard or a Scavenging Hyena? Or even a Timber Wolf + UtH play. 3 1/1 snakes for 2. Yes your opponent needs to attack one of your minions to trigger it, but a well timed Snake Trap can be the difference between win and lose for a Hunter
I'm not saying Snake Trap is bad, all I'm saying is it's not worth dusting Thalnos.
Kobold Geomancer is aight but its stats aren't great, Dalaran Mage is dead weight and a terrible card. Just about as useless as Silverback Patriarch. I think we can both agree that Novice Engineer/Loothoarder are very good cards even though their stats are rather bad. Thalnos' stats are even worse but that's not the point. He would be just as good as he is now even if he was a 0/1 minion. It's great b/c it gives you the versatility of +1 SP for 2 Mana AND a card draw/silence investment. Azure Drake is basically its bigger brother but due to its high mana cost, it does not even come close in terms of strategic potential.
I think you're obsessing with the fact that Thalnos is a legendary and therefore should have some amazing one of a kind effect like Ysera or Ragnaros. Try looking at it this way: Imagine if Thalnos was a rare card. You could have 2 of those guys in your deck. So in 1 card, you combined a loot hoarder and koblod with the only "downside" being that it is a 1/1. Thalnos is a legendary because it provides so much in one card that having two in a deck would make it a first pick for nearly every single deck.
And a well timed *anything* can be the difference between a win and lose for any class.
edit: Also, you really need to understand that Thalnos is not an early game card just because it is 2 mana cost. It is not meant to be played as a run of the mill 2 mana cost card. Would you be playing UTH + timberwolf immediately on turn 2 just because they're both 1 mana costs and add up to 2? Heck, would you ever even just play a straight timberwolf at turn 1?
Spell power minions are pretty useful, and with low cost and a replacement card when he dies, it's definitely good. But I don't know why it's a legendary. It's not THAT good. If it were a 3/3, or had sp+2, or something else, maybe.
I disagree. In its current state, I consider it one of the best legendaries out there. Your intuition is correct but you're too focused on its stats which - as I pointed out previously - are absolutely irrelevant.
I did say earlier that I may think him too weak because of his orange gem. If he was a blue, I might have had a different opinion of him
Once again, I have said this before, I do get that he isn't an early, single play minion, he is something you want to combo with another card immediately, I get that, I main Hunter, so I know the meaning of combo plays. Regarding UtH and Timberwolf, no, most of the time I would not play either on turn 2, let alone both. Playing Timberwolf on turn 1, that I have done, not when I'm going first though, but if my opponent drops a x/1, like the Worgen Infiltrator, I will sometimes play Timberwolf to try and force a trade if I have nothing better/need a clear board.
I understand the game pretty well thank you very much
There really should be no reason that he's a legendary, correct? He's a nobody in lore, a simple level 32 miniboss, so the idea of paying homage to him is far from reasonable. He holds no serious impact on the game or threat on the board like Cairne or The Beast. He's not unique like the effects of Baron Geddon, any of the dragons, Sylvanas, what have you. It's simply because he's too good to have two copies. If Thalnos was downgraded to an epic, you would see him everywhere and it would shift the balance of spell-focused decks completely.
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You're not going crazy, I edit 2~3 times each post
Hmm, see him everywhere? Yes in its current state. Shift the balance of spell-focused decks completely? Maybe. OP? Considering the alternatives in the spell power department, I'd rather have him become epic 1/3 with 3 cost, just to fit the lore better, and obviously remove him from everyone's collection and credit 1600 dust.
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His effects make him a 'boss' and he can be referred to as 'mini' due to his attributes. Fits pretty well, doesn't it? :)
This is basically everything is needed to be said about Thalnos.
Going back to the topic at hand , the rating is strange to me simply because a lot of them provide such good utility in certain decks , and you can go and utilize them in so many decks with so many combos that makes the grading of them very inpartial in a lot of cases , but as mentioned before it's interesting to see your point of view .
P.S A lot of people like RNG factor in plays , no the fact that it works in x% cases , but simply the idea of risking the game to change the outcome of it.