So we have 9 basic classes in Hearthstone. Mage, Druid, Paladin, Shaman, Warlock, Priest, Warrior, Rogue, and Hunter.
Yesterday I wanted to make some custom classes, but I couldn't really think of any immediately, so I ended up not. But today I had an idea: what if instead of making new classes, I made sub-classes? For instance, I could make a new Mage hero with a unique Hero Power (maybe) and a couple of unique cards.
I'll post anything I make in this thread. For now, I just want to know: what are some characters you'd like to see as subclasses?
I'll start out just making 5 subclass cards for each hero, but if anyone wants me to add more I will :)
I've started to work on my first one: Kael'thas Sunstrider, the alternate Mage hero.
His Hero Power is a different take on the regular Mage Hero Power.
Upside: deals 2 damage instead of 1.
Downside: you can't use it to ping down frustrating minions like Taunts.
I feel like it might be a bit too good; I might change it to only minions.
Now let's move on to some spells and minions. Kael'thas will have a slightly self-destructive theme; his abilities deal immense damage, but at serious cost. Compare it more to Shaman than to Warlock; Kael'thas has a sort of Overload mechanic, except it's permanent. I'll get to that in a moment.
This one doesn't fit the theme but I made it so eh, why not. A 3-mana/3-damage spell isn't great, but it's not awful, and it has the potential to become a 1-mana 3-damage spell. I think that's pretty good.
This is a crazy good 3-drop... except it'll kill all of your stuff. Note that it triggers at the end of each turn, both yours and your opponent's. Not sure if it's good or not but it certainly has the potential to backfire.
And now we reach the first card featuring Kael'thas's... well... feature.
A Flame Lance that can hit heroes, for only 3 mana! Crazy. Except that it permanently damages your mana curve... a lot. This is of course a great card to get on turn 10, since it doesn't matter by then, but playing this in response to, say, a Deathlord would probably mean defeat.
Twisting Nether is the only total board clear (except for Deathwing) in the entire game, and frankly it's overpriced. So I made a better one. Well... arguably better. I calculated a lot of this from Wild Growth, feeling like if a Mana Crystal is worth 2 mana then I should underprice these cards by 2.
Unfortunately there's already a Spellbreaker in the game, but I can still make blood elves! This guy is pretty cool, in my opinion. The stats - 6/4 with Taunt - is 1 stat more than Evil Heckler, but it has a pretty major upside. If even a single minion with card text hits this, it's got good value. Of course a Shadow Bolt or the like destroys it, but... still.
I haven't gotten any responses to this thread yet, but I'll just keep making subclasses and, I dunno, maybe someone will happen to see them :P
Next up we've got Priest. I decided to make the subclass hero Tyrande Whisperwind; I could alternatively try and make a Shadow Priest subclass, and I might if I keep going long enough to start making multiple per class, but for now we're going with a class focused a lot more on minion empowerment and protection.
The regular Priest class combines buff spells with a decent array of healing and damage spells to support their minions, along with "thief" spells to steal from the enemy. Tyrande is what, in my opinion, Priest should have been more like - entirely focused on minion support and eliminating enemies that threaten your board control. Minion-based, like Paladin.
I'm not sure how to balance this card, since no effect like it really exists. The closest match is [b]Bestial Wrath[/b], but that's different because it only lasts long enough to make favorable trades. Elune's Grace is different because it's designed more to protect a minion than to ensure a good trade. I think this is a very powerful spell, but that a subclass needs powerful spells to become individual from the main class they're built on.
That's all I have right now, any thoughts?
(Didn't make a Hero Power yet, but this post has been in-progress for days so I felt like just posting it so I could finally close this tab)
I agree that Kael'thas' hero power should only target minions. At this point it is directly better than Hunter's hero power. Also, mana sear is pretty overpowered since by your formula, the reverse wild growth discount should have only made it identical to Flame Lance instead of having the additional option of hitting face. It should probably cost 1 or 2 more mana. Other than that, this is an excellent concept. When I first saw the new hero portraits revealed I thought it would be something like this--heroes with new unique hero powers that fit the theme of their respective classes.
I really like the concept of the self destructive mage class with Kael'thas. Warlock only has one card that destroys mana crystals so I'm glad to see someone incorporate this mechanic in a new conceptual class where it theoretically could see some use. Same thing with Tyrande's immune effects (only rarely seen in Hunter, Warlock & Mage), which seem like they should have been in the Priest class in the beginning.
Keep up the good work!
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"The man who knows himself but does not know his enemy, never breaks 50% win rate."
With Mana Sear, I think it's actually balanced. Flame Lance hasn't so far proven itself to be a very good card, and since this is a basic (sub)class card, one of the five cards to define the subclass, I think it should be a little more powerful than an average spell. Look at Frostbolt, Fireball, Voidwalker, etc. Maybe I could reduce it to 7 damage...
Anyway, two more cards for Tyrande! The first one is to encourage a more minion-focused Priest playstyle... think of it as a Priest's version of Bloodlust:
The second one is... well, I'm not sure what it is, really, but it fits the theme so here you go:
Priests kind of lack a good 4-drop aside from Auchenai Soulpriest, and that's often played as a very tactical card. This is a minion you aren't afraid to play on curve, and if they trade into it or if it lives a turn it's guaranteed healing.
I'm still thinking about possible Hero Powers... maybe a combination of the Priest Hero Power and a buff...
I like this concept alot, Kael'thas as a fire mage hero would be pretty awesome since we'd have a representaion of each mage spec! Also your 3 mana deal 3 if it dies get 2 crystals is really awesome, love the concept and just seems like a pretty stable card. Look forwards to more of your stuff.
Elune's faithful is awesome too!
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My new thread for cards i've started making since the 6th of Feb-> [Mod Edit: No TinyURL Links Please]
I'm not sure exactly, since this isn't something I'm actually implementing into anything, but I'd imagine they'd be treated like normal Heroes. They'd just increase the pool of Heroes and show which share a group of class cards with the symbols (staff for mage, sword for warrior, claw for druid, etc.).
I like this concept alot, Kael'thas as a fire mage hero would be pretty awesome since we'd have a representaion of each mage spec! Also your 3 mana deal 3 if it dies get 2 crystals is really awesome, love the concept and just seems like a pretty stable card. Look forwards to more of your stuff.
Elune's faithful is awesome too!
Thanks for the positive response! :D
It seems like there's a lack of the "destructive" element of mage; the only really good fire spells are Fireball and Flamestrike (Pyroblast isn't really used very much). So it made sense to show the "raw power" side of mage. As for Mana Hunger, it kind of didn't fit the theme (it gives mana rather than destroying it) but I really liked the idea when I thought it up so I added it in.
If anyone has any ideas for subclasses I should make, by the way (ideas for either lore characters or themes), please tell me! :)
Anyway, I've now made Tyrande's Hero Power and some more of her cards!
Here's the Hero Power, Inspiration.
A few things about this.
1: It fits the theme of minion empowerment well, while still feeling like a Priest effect.
2: I believe it's very powerful but not too powerful; compare it to the Druid Hero Power, but it requires a Minion and the damage is dealt to your minion instead of your face.
3: The similarity in art between this and Lesser Heal is intentional. Different playstyle, but the same class.
Next up...
This one could be considered a 2-mana hard remove. But then, it doesn't help nearly as much against things likeKel'Thuzad,Ysera, or Ragnaros. Still, it might need to be nerfed to 3 mana. Or maybe even 4.
(It's also pretty ineffective against anything with Taunt)
And finally, last but definitely not least, we have... a weapon!
Yes, a Priest weapon. It has 0 Attack, though, so it's more like a passive trinket. This is also an unfortunate nerf to Blingtron, unless you're playing Priest.
This is just about guaranteed to draw you 4 cards, which for 4 mana is huge. But unless you play a Circle of Healing or a Holy Nova, it'll probably take a little while.
I hope we'll see new heroes with alternate hero powers at some point. Shadow Era, a very similar TCG (much more similar than MtG!) already has multiple heroes for each class, with different hero powers. I was very disappointed when they didn't do this for Magni, Alleria and Medivh. C'mon, I spent what, 500 bucks on this game, but I won't pay 10 bucks for cosmetics.
That said, subclasses are a lot more difficult. First of all, the current heroes (Jaina for example) would have to be a sub-class. So which cards does Jaina keep, without sharing them with other mages? Frostbolt? It's a huge design & balance headache.
What you can do, however, is "inofficial" subclasses. For example, look at Dragon Priest vs. Control Priest. Dragon Priest has cards that synergize well with each other (the "hold a dragon" mechanic) whereas Control Priest has very different synergies (all the cards that require certain attack values on enemy minions, and the cards that manipulate these; cards that give healing and those triggered by it). Now, control priest can include dragons (usually Ysera) and Dragon Priest will play a few control cards (Cabal or Vol'Jin), but these cards only show their true power in "their" set.
In other words, you have "subclasses" already, without splitting the card pool. And frankly, with just 45 cards per class, we're nowhere near the point where any subdivision is necessary. Maybe if Hearthstone ever reaches 500 cards per class in 10 years or so.
What does that mean for Kael'Thas? The main issue that I have here is that his hero power isn't that different. Jaina pretty much has that already, all you need is a Fallen Hero or Justicar. If you want to create something that truly redefines the mage class, you should come up with something that doesn't deal damage.
Examples:
Kael'Thas - Summon a Verdant Sphere (0/2 with spell damage +1) - (May need some changes to set it apart from Shaman... or maybe not, since Paladin summons Searing Totems...)
Medivh - Add a copy of a minion to your hand. (A mini Echo of Medivh that works on enemy minions) - As you can imagine, this totally redefines how mage is played.
I had considered that certain spells would need to be excluded from these, making them specific to the original hero. I think Frostbolt, Blizzard and Ice Lance (plus two others) could be specific to Jaina. Medivh would obviously get Echo of Medivh, maybe Arcane Blast as well... it would certainly be annoying to balance.
(My arguments for Jaina's cards - Frostbolt is a lot like Mana Hunger, Blizzard is a fairly defensive 2-damage AOE plus Frost Nova, and for the same cost Devastation can be a much better board clear, and Ice Lance is either a defensive play or involved in Freeze Mage, which I feel shouldn't really be used by Kael'thas)
(As for Medivh's cards, well, Echo of Medivh is obvious (although it's a shame, gameplay-wise), and Arcane Blast... I dunno)
As for the Hero Powers, well, that makes sense. But I disagree with giving a Wrath of Air Totem, since that's one of the two best totems to get, especially in a class based around spells. Jaina's Hero Power would be a 2-mana Emergency Coolant, where every other current Hero Power is And Medivh's Hero Power is just an infinitely reusable version of Convert, right?
But I do agree with the concept. I'll think about a replacement for Kael'thas's Hero Power.
True Hunter- Most Hunter cards revolve around beasts and boosting the power of your minions, but what about cards that were specifically based around dealing with archetypes and classes? Like Hungry Crab and Golakka Crawler we could make cards that are meant to hunt different subclasses (possibly a dragon hunter or demon hunter) more cards that are meant to trap, destroy, and disable minions of a certain type. Could be interesting to help play around.
Shape changing Druid- I love cards like Druid of the Claw and Druid of the Fang and shape changing is a major power that druids have. Maybe creating cards that transform your hero or minion into different forms that give them different buffs could be interesting and give you multiple options for how to deal with your opponent and play around thier strategy? Something to consider.
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So we have 9 basic classes in Hearthstone. Mage, Druid, Paladin, Shaman, Warlock, Priest, Warrior, Rogue, and Hunter.
Yesterday I wanted to make some custom classes, but I couldn't really think of any immediately, so I ended up not. But today I had an idea: what if instead of making new classes, I made sub-classes? For instance, I could make a new Mage hero with a unique Hero Power (maybe) and a couple of unique cards.
I'll post anything I make in this thread. For now, I just want to know: what are some characters you'd like to see as subclasses?
I'll start out just making 5 subclass cards for each hero, but if anyone wants me to add more I will :)
Ideas Pending Creation:
None
Created Subclasses:
Mage - Kael'thas Sunstrider
Priest - Tyrande Whisperwind
Working on my Icecrown Citadel custom adventure! Advice is always appreciated :)
WIP Classes: Demon Hunter, Death Knight
Check out my Workbench to see some of my cards!
I've started to work on my first one: Kael'thas Sunstrider, the alternate Mage hero.
His Hero Power is a different take on the regular Mage Hero Power.
Upside: deals 2 damage instead of 1.
Downside: you can't use it to ping down frustrating minions like Taunts.
I feel like it might be a bit too good; I might change it to only minions.
Now let's move on to some spells and minions. Kael'thas will have a slightly self-destructive theme; his abilities deal immense damage, but at serious cost. Compare it more to Shaman than to Warlock; Kael'thas has a sort of Overload mechanic, except it's permanent. I'll get to that in a moment.
This one doesn't fit the theme but I made it so eh, why not. A 3-mana/3-damage spell isn't great, but it's not awful, and it has the potential to become a 1-mana 3-damage spell. I think that's pretty good.
This is a crazy good 3-drop... except it'll kill all of your stuff. Note that it triggers at the end of each turn, both yours and your opponent's. Not sure if it's good or not but it certainly has the potential to backfire.
And now we reach the first card featuring Kael'thas's... well... feature.
A Flame Lance that can hit heroes, for only 3 mana! Crazy. Except that it permanently damages your mana curve... a lot. This is of course a great card to get on turn 10, since it doesn't matter by then, but playing this in response to, say, a Deathlord would probably mean defeat.
Twisting Nether is the only total board clear (except for Deathwing) in the entire game, and frankly it's overpriced. So I made a better one. Well... arguably better. I calculated a lot of this from Wild Growth, feeling like if a Mana Crystal is worth 2 mana then I should underprice these cards by 2.
Unfortunately there's already a Spellbreaker in the game, but I can still make blood elves! This guy is pretty cool, in my opinion. The stats - 6/4 with Taunt - is 1 stat more than Evil Heckler, but it has a pretty major upside. If even a single minion with card text hits this, it's got good value. Of course a Shadow Bolt or the like destroys it, but... still.
Working on my Icecrown Citadel custom adventure! Advice is always appreciated :)
WIP Classes: Demon Hunter, Death Knight
Check out my Workbench to see some of my cards!
I haven't gotten any responses to this thread yet, but I'll just keep making subclasses and, I dunno, maybe someone will happen to see them :P
Next up we've got Priest. I decided to make the subclass hero Tyrande Whisperwind; I could alternatively try and make a Shadow Priest subclass, and I might if I keep going long enough to start making multiple per class, but for now we're going with a class focused a lot more on minion empowerment and protection.
The regular Priest class combines buff spells with a decent array of healing and damage spells to support their minions, along with "thief" spells to steal from the enemy. Tyrande is what, in my opinion, Priest should have been more like - entirely focused on minion support and eliminating enemies that threaten your board control. Minion-based, like Paladin.
I'm not sure how to balance this card, since no effect like it really exists. The closest match is [b]Bestial Wrath[/b], but that's different because it only lasts long enough to make favorable trades. Elune's Grace is different because it's designed more to protect a minion than to ensure a good trade. I think this is a very powerful spell, but that a subclass needs powerful spells to become individual from the main class they're built on.
That's all I have right now, any thoughts?
(Didn't make a Hero Power yet, but this post has been in-progress for days so I felt like just posting it so I could finally close this tab)
Working on my Icecrown Citadel custom adventure! Advice is always appreciated :)
WIP Classes: Demon Hunter, Death Knight
Check out my Workbench to see some of my cards!
Subclass is a better idea than new classes. Maybe even viable since they could share existing class cards.
Say "Wow" for RNG!
I agree that Kael'thas' hero power should only target minions. At this point it is directly better than Hunter's hero power. Also, mana sear is pretty overpowered since by your formula, the reverse wild growth discount should have only made it identical to Flame Lance instead of having the additional option of hitting face. It should probably cost 1 or 2 more mana. Other than that, this is an excellent concept. When I first saw the new hero portraits revealed I thought it would be something like this--heroes with new unique hero powers that fit the theme of their respective classes.
I really like the concept of the self destructive mage class with Kael'thas. Warlock only has one card that destroys mana crystals so I'm glad to see someone incorporate this mechanic in a new conceptual class where it theoretically could see some use. Same thing with Tyrande's immune effects (only rarely seen in Hunter, Warlock & Mage), which seem like they should have been in the Priest class in the beginning.
Keep up the good work!
"The man who knows himself but does not know his enemy, never breaks 50% win rate."
-Sun Tzu
Thanks for the feedback!
With Mana Sear, I think it's actually balanced. Flame Lance hasn't so far proven itself to be a very good card, and since this is a basic (sub)class card, one of the five cards to define the subclass, I think it should be a little more powerful than an average spell. Look at Frostbolt, Fireball, Voidwalker, etc. Maybe I could reduce it to 7 damage...
Anyway, two more cards for Tyrande! The first one is to encourage a more minion-focused Priest playstyle... think of it as a Priest's version of Bloodlust:
The second one is... well, I'm not sure what it is, really, but it fits the theme so here you go:
Priests kind of lack a good 4-drop aside from Auchenai Soulpriest, and that's often played as a very tactical card. This is a minion you aren't afraid to play on curve, and if they trade into it or if it lives a turn it's guaranteed healing.
I'm still thinking about possible Hero Powers... maybe a combination of the Priest Hero Power and a buff...
Working on my Icecrown Citadel custom adventure! Advice is always appreciated :)
WIP Classes: Demon Hunter, Death Knight
Check out my Workbench to see some of my cards!
I like this concept alot, Kael'thas as a fire mage hero would be pretty awesome since we'd have a representaion of each mage spec! Also your 3 mana deal 3 if it dies get 2 crystals is really awesome, love the concept and just seems like a pretty stable card. Look forwards to more of your stuff.
Elune's faithful is awesome too!
My new thread for cards i've started making since the 6th of Feb-> [Mod Edit: No TinyURL Links Please]
So how would these work in game?
Make the Card: The biggest thread on the site!
My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
I'm not sure exactly, since this isn't something I'm actually implementing into anything, but I'd imagine they'd be treated like normal Heroes. They'd just increase the pool of Heroes and show which share a group of class cards with the symbols (staff for mage, sword for warrior, claw for druid, etc.).
Working on my Icecrown Citadel custom adventure! Advice is always appreciated :)
WIP Classes: Demon Hunter, Death Knight
Check out my Workbench to see some of my cards!
Thanks for the positive response! :D
It seems like there's a lack of the "destructive" element of mage; the only really good fire spells are Fireball and Flamestrike (Pyroblast isn't really used very much). So it made sense to show the "raw power" side of mage. As for Mana Hunger, it kind of didn't fit the theme (it gives mana rather than destroying it) but I really liked the idea when I thought it up so I added it in.
Working on my Icecrown Citadel custom adventure! Advice is always appreciated :)
WIP Classes: Demon Hunter, Death Knight
Check out my Workbench to see some of my cards!
If anyone has any ideas for subclasses I should make, by the way (ideas for either lore characters or themes), please tell me! :)
Anyway, I've now made Tyrande's Hero Power and some more of her cards!
Here's the Hero Power, Inspiration.
A few things about this.
1: It fits the theme of minion empowerment well, while still feeling like a Priest effect.
2: I believe it's very powerful but not too powerful; compare it to the Druid Hero Power, but it requires a Minion and the damage is dealt to your minion instead of your face.
3: The similarity in art between this and Lesser Heal is intentional. Different playstyle, but the same class.
Next up...
This one could be considered a 2-mana hard remove. But then, it doesn't help nearly as much against things likeKel'Thuzad,Ysera, or Ragnaros. Still, it might need to be nerfed to 3 mana. Or maybe even 4.
(It's also pretty ineffective against anything with Taunt)
And finally, last but definitely not least, we have... a weapon!
Yes, a Priest weapon. It has 0 Attack, though, so it's more like a passive trinket. This is also an unfortunate nerf to Blingtron, unless you're playing Priest.
This is just about guaranteed to draw you 4 cards, which for 4 mana is huge. But unless you play a Circle of Healing or a Holy Nova, it'll probably take a little while.
Any suggestions for the next subclass?
Working on my Icecrown Citadel custom adventure! Advice is always appreciated :)
WIP Classes: Demon Hunter, Death Knight
Check out my Workbench to see some of my cards!
I hope we'll see new heroes with alternate hero powers at some point. Shadow Era, a very similar TCG (much more similar than MtG!) already has multiple heroes for each class, with different hero powers. I was very disappointed when they didn't do this for Magni, Alleria and Medivh. C'mon, I spent what, 500 bucks on this game, but I won't pay 10 bucks for cosmetics.
That said, subclasses are a lot more difficult. First of all, the current heroes (Jaina for example) would have to be a sub-class. So which cards does Jaina keep, without sharing them with other mages? Frostbolt? It's a huge design & balance headache.
What you can do, however, is "inofficial" subclasses. For example, look at Dragon Priest vs. Control Priest. Dragon Priest has cards that synergize well with each other (the "hold a dragon" mechanic) whereas Control Priest has very different synergies (all the cards that require certain attack values on enemy minions, and the cards that manipulate these; cards that give healing and those triggered by it). Now, control priest can include dragons (usually Ysera) and Dragon Priest will play a few control cards (Cabal or Vol'Jin), but these cards only show their true power in "their" set.
In other words, you have "subclasses" already, without splitting the card pool. And frankly, with just 45 cards per class, we're nowhere near the point where any subdivision is necessary. Maybe if Hearthstone ever reaches 500 cards per class in 10 years or so.
What does that mean for Kael'Thas? The main issue that I have here is that his hero power isn't that different. Jaina pretty much has that already, all you need is a Fallen Hero or Justicar. If you want to create something that truly redefines the mage class, you should come up with something that doesn't deal damage.
Examples:
Kael'Thas - Summon a Verdant Sphere (0/2 with spell damage +1) - (May need some changes to set it apart from Shaman... or maybe not, since Paladin summons Searing Totems...)
Medivh - Add a copy of a minion to your hand. (A mini Echo of Medivh that works on enemy minions) - As you can imagine, this totally redefines how mage is played.
(Alternate) Jaina - Freeze a minion
Hadn't considered Ner'zhul, but that would certainly be interesting. Thanks for the suggestion!
Working on my Icecrown Citadel custom adventure! Advice is always appreciated :)
WIP Classes: Demon Hunter, Death Knight
Check out my Workbench to see some of my cards!
mk572,
I had considered that certain spells would need to be excluded from these, making them specific to the original hero. I think Frostbolt, Blizzard and Ice Lance (plus two others) could be specific to Jaina. Medivh would obviously get Echo of Medivh, maybe Arcane Blast as well... it would certainly be annoying to balance.
(My arguments for Jaina's cards - Frostbolt is a lot like Mana Hunger, Blizzard is a fairly defensive 2-damage AOE plus Frost Nova, and for the same cost Devastation can be a much better board clear, and Ice Lance is either a defensive play or involved in Freeze Mage, which I feel shouldn't really be used by Kael'thas)
(As for Medivh's cards, well, Echo of Medivh is obvious (although it's a shame, gameplay-wise), and Arcane Blast... I dunno)
As for the Hero Powers, well, that makes sense. But I disagree with giving a Wrath of Air Totem, since that's one of the two best totems to get, especially in a class based around spells. Jaina's Hero Power would be a 2-mana Emergency Coolant, where every other current Hero Power is And Medivh's Hero Power is just an infinitely reusable version of Convert, right?
But I do agree with the concept. I'll think about a replacement for Kael'thas's Hero Power.
Thank you for the response :)
Working on my Icecrown Citadel custom adventure! Advice is always appreciated :)
WIP Classes: Demon Hunter, Death Knight
Check out my Workbench to see some of my cards!
This thread is really cool! Keep up the good work!
Is this important?
Jaina could be deal 1 damage to a character, if it is a minion, freeze it.
For Kael'thas his totems could have "As long as you control a non-totem minion with taunt, this gains taunt"
Make the Card: The biggest thread on the site!
My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
I have two ideas for subclasses
True Hunter- Most Hunter cards revolve around beasts and boosting the power of your minions, but what about cards that were specifically based around dealing with archetypes and classes? Like Hungry Crab and Golakka Crawler we could make cards that are meant to hunt different subclasses (possibly a dragon hunter or demon hunter) more cards that are meant to trap, destroy, and disable minions of a certain type. Could be interesting to help play around.
Shape changing Druid- I love cards like Druid of the Claw and Druid of the Fang and shape changing is a major power that druids have. Maybe creating cards that transform your hero or minion into different forms that give them different buffs could be interesting and give you multiple options for how to deal with your opponent and play around thier strategy? Something to consider.