I've been testing a Tempo Shaman list lately, which plays big minions for their cost and then gives them Windfury. It's kinda bad, but with a perfect draw it works pretty well.
To say he warped the deck is a bit of an understatement. I know he doesn't *look* impressive, but being able to attack, draw three, cast three burn spells, attack, and draw three is BEAUTIFUL. Due to Overload, it's not that hard to be able to cast all the spells you draw that turn decimating the opponent's board or just straight up burning them for 20 damage out of nowhere. Genzo is quickly becoming my favorite Shaman legendary, even if this deck is still too inconsistent to be playable in ladder.
But it got me thinking; why didn't they go this route with Shaman? More Windfury cards, "Whenever this attacks" cards, and similar. It's a unique ability that would strengthen the Windfury theme in the class, without having to worry about balacing every minion around Windfury being added on.
This is pretty cool. I have been having a lot of fun playing with overload Shaman, though similar to you it isn't 100% ladder viable. I always liked the "whenever this attacks, draw a card." mechanic with Paladin, but its a great idea with Shaman's windfury. Way to make think about playing around with Genzo in some Shaman decks later tonight. Do you have a deck list for the one you are running? Curious to try it out.
I'd also love to see your windfury list. I'm always down to try out different archetypes. The posted card seems pretty strong though as 2/5 is considered to be a really good stat line. That being said, Defile, Duskbreaker, Vilespine, Patches and Flamewreathed were all ridiculously strong as well and Blizz released them anyway.
Personally I think this is a bad idea. Allow me to elaborate.
Windfury is a very, very strong ability. In most games, an unanswered Windfury minion just outright wins the game on its own. There was a time Whirling Zapomatic was legal along with Powermace and Flametongue totem. I've won games on turn 4 with that deck, with near 100% consistency, IF (and this is a big if) a turn 1/turn 2 Zappomatic stays unanswered for 2 turns. They are very polarizing, and the swings they cause are very big and often devastating.
I am personally not a fan of games decided on turns 1-2-3 by IF my opponent has his OP windfury minion and IF I have my removal or not.
Lastly, the minion you created is ridiculously OP, it would have to be a legendary with overload 1, to balance out that PREMIUM statline (2+5=7, 7/3=2.333 so more than 2 stat points per mana cost) and that effect which costs 1 mana on its own (Blessing of Wisdom)
Personally I think this is a bad idea. Allow me to elaborate.
Windfury is a very, very strong ability. In most games, an unanswered Windfury minion just outright wins the game on its own. There was a time Whirling Zapomatic was legal along with Powermace and Flametongue totem. I've won games on turn 4 with that deck, with near 100% consistency, IF (and this is a big if) a turn 1/turn 2 Zappomatic stays unanswered for 2 turns. They are very polarizing, and the swings they cause are very big and often devastating.
I am personally not a fan of games decided on turns 1-2-3 by IF my opponent has his OP windfury minion and IF I have my removal or not.
Lastly, the minion you created is ridiculously OP, it would have to be a legendary with overload 1, to balance out that PREMIUM statline (2+5=7, 7/3=2.333 so more than 2 stat points per mana cost) and that effect which costs 1 mana on its own (Blessing of Wisdom)
Ice Rager, Spider Tank, Toxic Sewer Ooze, Twilight Elder, Mind Breaker, Dragonslayer, and many others have 7 stats for 3 mana as neutral minions, over half of them with upsides. And those are Neutrals, which we know are supposed to have less power than Class Cards. The mana cost/statline for this is fine in accordance with the power curve.
I do share your concern with Windfury being very very strong, which is why I absolutely would not print "Deal damage to a random enemy on attack" on anything lower than a legendary. It's why I gave it such a low attack in the first place; it's supposed to keep you gassed, not kill the opponent. I also specifically didn't give it Windfury as a 2/5 with Blessing of Wisdom is A) Already really good and B) synergistic with Windfury, not requiring it.
The thing is, you would have to include some way of giving this card Windfury (Windfury itself or Windspeaker), attack buffing cards (Flame-tongue totem, Rockbiter Weapon, Bloodlust), AND coin it out early in order for it to flat out end the game. There's a lot of hoops you have to jump through for it to run away with the game.
what about more expensive windfury cards that promote a more 'midrange' playstyle? Cheap windfury cards create polarizing games where they can blow out opponents before they have a chance to respond (look at Whirling Zapomatic).
But a 5, 6, or 7 cost minion could have a lot of potential, considering that although if it goes unanswered it can still be a blowout, there are few (playable) 7 drops that if left unanswered don't win the game outright in a turn or two.
interesting idea, but i agree that this card is probably a bit too strong. i think if it either lost 1 stat (attack or health either one) or cost 1 more (or perhaps simply have overload (1)) it might be just right
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"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear turns into a cat and eats you." - Anonymous Druid
This card is imho too powerful. 5 health is a lot on turn 3 and therefore, this will regularly draw you a card if played on curve. And it even trades okay with 2 attack. Black Cat could be considered a similar strong card, but comes with a huge limitation on deck building. The issue I see is that if you can protect it, it will snowball the game like vicious fledgeling.
On the other hand, in later turns it might not be impactful any more since then it is easier to kill. Nevertheless, shaman never had strong draw cards and I think there is a reason that Genzo is a 4 mana card but only has 4 health instead of being a 3/6 or 2/7. Maybe if the effect is not on attack, but with killing a minion? Otherwise it looks too snowbally to me.
interesting idea, but i agree that this card is probably a bit too strong. i think if it either lost 1 stat (attack or health either one) or cost 1 more (or perhaps simply have overload (1)) it might be just right
Overload (1) would be a pretty good balance point. I'll throw that in there.
This card is imho too powerful. 5 health is a lot on turn 3 and therefore, this will regularly draw you a card if played on curve. And it even trades okay with 2 attack. Black Cat could be considered a similar strong card, but comes with a huge limitation on deck building. The issue I see is that if you can protect it, it will snowball the game like vicious fledgeling.
On the other hand, in later turns it might not be impactful any more since then it is easier to kill. Nevertheless, shaman never had strong draw cards and I think there is a reason that Genzo is a 4 mana card but only has 4 health instead of being a 3/6 or 2/7. Maybe if the effect is not on attack, but with killing a minion? Otherwise it looks too snowbally to me.
Drawing a card isn't too terrible, and 4 mana is the point where alot of the removal options for every class starts to come into play. I don't see how it would snowball the game like Vicious Fledgeling when it would be more akin to Mana Tide Totem; Flappy Bird just gets stronger and stronger by attacking face gaining Windfury, Stealth, extra stats, and "Can't be targetted", where as this you'd have to pump more and more mana into it in order to buff it.
Black Cat has Spellpower though, which while not entirely relevant all the time, we all know what disregarding Spellpower can lead to.
This card is imho too powerful. 5 health is a lot on turn 3 and therefore, this will regularly draw you a card if played on curve. And it even trades okay with 2 attack. Black Cat could be considered a similar strong card, but comes with a huge limitation on deck building. The issue I see is that if you can protect it, it will snowball the game like vicious fledgeling.
On the other hand, in later turns it might not be impactful any more since then it is easier to kill. Nevertheless, shaman never had strong draw cards and I think there is a reason that Genzo is a 4 mana card but only has 4 health instead of being a 3/6 or 2/7. Maybe if the effect is not on attack, but with killing a minion? Otherwise it looks too snowbally to me.
Drawing a card isn't too terrible, and 4 mana is the point where alot of the removal options for every class starts to come into play. I don't see how it would snowball the game like Vicious Fledgeling when it would be more akin to Mana Tide Totem; Flappy Bird just gets stronger and stronger by attacking face gaining Windfury, Stealth, extra stats, and "Can't be targetted", where as this you'd have to pump more and more mana into it in order to buff it.
Black Cat has Spellpower though, which while not entirely relevant all the time, we all know what disregarding Spellpower can lead to.
It actually is not at all something like Mana tide totem. It is much stronger. The mana tide totem has 3 health and no attack. it is a cantrip that has no board impact most of the times. And unlike mana tide totem, it still damages minions that attack it.
This doesn't come into play at 4 mana and at 3 mana it is very difficult to kill with 5 health. If you attack face with it you get a card without damaging your minion. If you do that for the next few turns, it will snowball the game. Not in an aggressive way like damage every turn (I admit that fledgeling was an inappropriate example), but in the same infinite way like if you leave mana tide totem up. Try that against a shaman deck and you will run into problems, even with the present shamans which do not have highly viable builds. Every turn an extra card is usually a win. This turn 3 and saronite chain gang on 4 will snowball against minion based decks.
Having no efficient draw is a weakness of shaman. This card solves the weakness entirely and therefore I think it is too strong. This would be an autoinclude in any deck, aggro, midrange and control.
As to the cat, the spell damage is a nice bonus feature, but it is not the reason you play the cat. And the cat only draws 1 card while this can draw the whole game. If it can only draw if it attacks a minion, it at least will automatically die after drawing 3 cards (unless you manage to put resources in it).
Edit: I see a problem with my proposal that the card would be still a good on curve play, but the effect would be useless against decks with no minions. Then again, that disadvantage might balance it out.
This card is imho too powerful. 5 health is a lot on turn 3 and therefore, this will regularly draw you a card if played on curve. And it even trades okay with 2 attack. Black Cat could be considered a similar strong card, but comes with a huge limitation on deck building. The issue I see is that if you can protect it, it will snowball the game like vicious fledgeling.
On the other hand, in later turns it might not be impactful any more since then it is easier to kill. Nevertheless, shaman never had strong draw cards and I think there is a reason that Genzo is a 4 mana card but only has 4 health instead of being a 3/6 or 2/7. Maybe if the effect is not on attack, but with killing a minion? Otherwise it looks too snowbally to me.
Drawing a card isn't too terrible, and 4 mana is the point where alot of the removal options for every class starts to come into play. I don't see how it would snowball the game like Vicious Fledgeling when it would be more akin to Mana Tide Totem; Flappy Bird just gets stronger and stronger by attacking face gaining Windfury, Stealth, extra stats, and "Can't be targetted", where as this you'd have to pump more and more mana into it in order to buff it.
Black Cat has Spellpower though, which while not entirely relevant all the time, we all know what disregarding Spellpower can lead to.
It actually is not at all something like Mana tide totem. It is much stronger. The mana tide totem has 3 health and no attack. it is a cantrip that has no board impact most of the times. And unlike mana tide totem, it still damages minions that attack it.
This doesn't come into play at 4 mana and at 3 mana it is very difficult to kill with 5 health. If you attack face with it you get a card without damaging your minion. If you do that for the next few turns, it will snowball the game. Not in an aggressive way like damage every turn (I admit that fledgeling was an inappropriate example), but in the same infinite way like if you leave mana tide totem up. Try that against a shaman deck and you will run into problems, even with the present shamans which do not have highly viable builds. Every turn an extra card is usually a win. This turn 3 and saronite chain gang on 4 will snowball against minion based decks.
Having no efficient draw is a weakness of shaman. This card solves the weakness entirely and therefore I think it is too strong. This would be an autoinclude in any deck, aggro, midrange and control.
As to the cat, the spell damage is a nice bonus feature, but it is not the reason you play the cat. And the cat only draws 1 card while this can draw the whole game. If it can only draw if it attacks a minion, it at least will automatically die after drawing 3 cards (unless you manage to put resources in it).
Edit: I see a problem with my proposal that the card would be still a good on curve play, but the effect would be useless against decks with no minions. Then again, that disadvantage might balance it out.
Mana Tide has Totem synergy (Free 5/5 taunt to name one), draws even if it can't attack (Is frozen), and doesn't potentially kill itself drawing the card. Windshaper can draw without damaging itself by attacking face, but that's your opponent's fault for not playing Taunt. Windshaper has to wait an entire turn in order to attack to draw a card, where as MTT just draws a card. Assuming both stay up for two turns, MTT draws you two cards, Windshaper draws you one.
If your opponent lets you continue pummeling them in the face, dealing damage and drawing cards, that's the opponents fault for not playing either indirect removal (Fireball) or just not playing aggressive enough to remove a minion. A MTT will also run away with the game if it's left up, so I don't see why this is an issue; you shouldn't design cards around bad deckbuilders or people with horrible Target Priority senses.
Also, if not being able to draw cards is supposed to be a weakness of Shaman, why do our cards suck? Every other class gets 2 mana 2/3, 3/2, or similar, WITH UPSIDE, but Shaman gets a 2 mana 1/1 every expansion. Blizzard had "Can't Draw, but has really powerful cards" as the class' identity and that is what lead to Shamanstone. Meanwhile, Warlock gets it's weakness shored up with all this healing they can do, Rogue suddenly has defensive secrets and lifestealing weapons, and Priest has great minions and a ton of direct damage. Class identity went out the window a long time ago.
Shaman either needs outstanding minions that are each individually a gigantic threat if they have to rely on only drawing a few at a time, OR they need to be able to draw cards. Considering no one wants a return to Shamanstone, I'm more inclined to desire the later.
This card is imho too powerful. 5 health is a lot on turn 3 and therefore, this will regularly draw you a card if played on curve. And it even trades okay with 2 attack. Black Cat could be considered a similar strong card, but comes with a huge limitation on deck building. The issue I see is that if you can protect it, it will snowball the game like vicious fledgeling.
On the other hand, in later turns it might not be impactful any more since then it is easier to kill. Nevertheless, shaman never had strong draw cards and I think there is a reason that Genzo is a 4 mana card but only has 4 health instead of being a 3/6 or 2/7. Maybe if the effect is not on attack, but with killing a minion? Otherwise it looks too snowbally to me.
Drawing a card isn't too terrible, and 4 mana is the point where alot of the removal options for every class starts to come into play. I don't see how it would snowball the game like Vicious Fledgeling when it would be more akin to Mana Tide Totem; Flappy Bird just gets stronger and stronger by attacking face gaining Windfury, Stealth, extra stats, and "Can't be targetted", where as this you'd have to pump more and more mana into it in order to buff it.
Black Cat has Spellpower though, which while not entirely relevant all the time, we all know what disregarding Spellpower can lead to.
It actually is not at all something like Mana tide totem. It is much stronger. The mana tide totem has 3 health and no attack. it is a cantrip that has no board impact most of the times. And unlike mana tide totem, it still damages minions that attack it.
This doesn't come into play at 4 mana and at 3 mana it is very difficult to kill with 5 health. If you attack face with it you get a card without damaging your minion. If you do that for the next few turns, it will snowball the game. Not in an aggressive way like damage every turn (I admit that fledgeling was an inappropriate example), but in the same infinite way like if you leave mana tide totem up. Try that against a shaman deck and you will run into problems, even with the present shamans which do not have highly viable builds. Every turn an extra card is usually a win. This turn 3 and saronite chain gang on 4 will snowball against minion based decks.
Having no efficient draw is a weakness of shaman. This card solves the weakness entirely and therefore I think it is too strong. This would be an autoinclude in any deck, aggro, midrange and control.
As to the cat, the spell damage is a nice bonus feature, but it is not the reason you play the cat. And the cat only draws 1 card while this can draw the whole game. If it can only draw if it attacks a minion, it at least will automatically die after drawing 3 cards (unless you manage to put resources in it).
Edit: I see a problem with my proposal that the card would be still a good on curve play, but the effect would be useless against decks with no minions. Then again, that disadvantage might balance it out.
Mana Tide has Totem synergy (Free 5/5 taunt to name one), draws even if it can't attack (Is frozen), and doesn't potentially kill itself drawing the card. Windshaper can draw without damaging itself by attacking face, but that's your opponent's fault for not playing Taunt. Windshaper has to wait an entire turn in order to attack to draw a card, where as MTT just draws a card. Assuming both stay up for two turns, MTT draws you two cards, Windshaper draws you one.
If your opponent lets you continue pummeling them in the face, dealing damage and drawing cards, that's the opponents fault for not playing either indirect removal (Fireball) or just not playing aggressive enough to remove a minion. A MTT will also run away with the game if it's left up, so I don't see why this is an issue; you shouldn't design cards around bad deckbuilders or people with horrible Target Priority senses.
Also, if not being able to draw cards is supposed to be a weakness of Shaman, why do our cards suck? Every other class gets 2 mana 2/3, 3/2, or similar, WITH UPSIDE, but Shaman gets a 2 mana 1/1 every expansion. Blizzard had "Can't Draw, but has really powerful cards" as the class' identity and that is what lead to Shamanstone. Meanwhile, Warlock gets it's weakness shored up with all this healing they can do, Rogue suddenly has defensive secrets and lifestealing weapons, and Priest has great minions and a ton of direct damage. Class identity went out the window a long time ago.
Shaman either needs outstanding minions that are each individually a gigantic threat if they have to rely on only drawing a few at a time, OR they need to be able to draw cards. Considering no one wants a return to Shamanstone, I'm more inclined to desire the later.
Not every class has a fireball, so this is not an argument at all. On curve It will be very hard to kill for any board centric deck and if they can trade, they lose their board. Which is okay if you could ignore it, but you can't. I think this is not a minion shaman should get. Luckily I also believe it isn't a minion shaman will get.
Anyway, arguing whether it is too strong or not is moot at this point. I think it clearly is too strong, you think it is justified. We will never find out.
I've been testing a Tempo Shaman list lately, which plays big minions for their cost and then gives them Windfury. It's kinda bad, but with a perfect draw it works pretty well.
And then I added Genzo, the Shark to it.
To say he warped the deck is a bit of an understatement. I know he doesn't *look* impressive, but being able to attack, draw three, cast three burn spells, attack, and draw three is BEAUTIFUL. Due to Overload, it's not that hard to be able to cast all the spells you draw that turn decimating the opponent's board or just straight up burning them for 20 damage out of nowhere. Genzo is quickly becoming my favorite Shaman legendary, even if this deck is still too inconsistent to be playable in ladder.
But it got me thinking; why didn't they go this route with Shaman? More Windfury cards, "Whenever this attacks" cards, and similar. It's a unique ability that would strengthen the Windfury theme in the class, without having to worry about balacing every minion around Windfury being added on.
This is pretty cool. I have been having a lot of fun playing with overload Shaman, though similar to you it isn't 100% ladder viable. I always liked the "whenever this attacks, draw a card." mechanic with Paladin, but its a great idea with Shaman's windfury. Way to make think about playing around with Genzo in some Shaman decks later tonight. Do you have a deck list for the one you are running? Curious to try it out.
For some reason it's not letting me copy it to the clipboard, I'll have to post it tomorrow before I go to work :(
I'd also love to see your windfury list. I'm always down to try out different archetypes. The posted card seems pretty strong though as 2/5 is considered to be a really good stat line. That being said, Defile, Duskbreaker, Vilespine, Patches and Flamewreathed were all ridiculously strong as well and Blizz released them anyway.
Personally I think this is a bad idea. Allow me to elaborate.
Windfury is a very, very strong ability. In most games, an unanswered Windfury minion just outright wins the game on its own. There was a time Whirling Zapomatic was legal along with Powermace and Flametongue totem. I've won games on turn 4 with that deck, with near 100% consistency, IF (and this is a big if) a turn 1/turn 2 Zappomatic stays unanswered for 2 turns. They are very polarizing, and the swings they cause are very big and often devastating.
I am personally not a fan of games decided on turns 1-2-3 by IF my opponent has his OP windfury minion and IF I have my removal or not.
Lastly, the minion you created is ridiculously OP, it would have to be a legendary with overload 1, to balance out that PREMIUM statline (2+5=7, 7/3=2.333 so more than 2 stat points per mana cost) and that effect which costs 1 mana on its own (Blessing of Wisdom)
Level 60: All classes
Golden Classes: Druid, Mage, Shaman, Paladin, Warrior
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what about more expensive windfury cards that promote a more 'midrange' playstyle? Cheap windfury cards create polarizing games where they can blow out opponents before they have a chance to respond (look at Whirling Zapomatic).
But a 5, 6, or 7 cost minion could have a lot of potential, considering that although if it goes unanswered it can still be a blowout, there are few (playable) 7 drops that if left unanswered don't win the game outright in a turn or two.
interesting idea, but i agree that this card is probably a bit too strong. i think if it either lost 1 stat (attack or health either one) or cost 1 more (or perhaps simply have overload (1)) it might be just right
"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear turns into a cat and eats you." - Anonymous Druid
If you can't see that this card is broken you really should stop wasting time thinking about balance and card design for HS.
This card is imho too powerful. 5 health is a lot on turn 3 and therefore, this will regularly draw you a card if played on curve. And it even trades okay with 2 attack. Black Cat could be considered a similar strong card, but comes with a huge limitation on deck building. The issue I see is that if you can protect it, it will snowball the game like vicious fledgeling.
On the other hand, in later turns it might not be impactful any more since then it is easier to kill. Nevertheless, shaman never had strong draw cards and I think there is a reason that Genzo is a 4 mana card but only has 4 health instead of being a 3/6 or 2/7. Maybe if the effect is not on attack, but with killing a minion? Otherwise it looks too snowbally to me.
I love a windfury Shaman deck,it would be good if they can print more cards like this for shaman and make it a viable archetype.
But the moment shaman lost Whirling zap,it kinda lost that flavor with it.
Just Another Legend Player#Kappa
Edit: added spoiler
It's funny because Paladin has access to the "when this minion attacks, draw a card" and Thrallmar Farseer but no one does a combo like that.
the forgotten epics
Junkbot Frost Giant Luckydo Buccaneer Sea Reaver Darkspeaker Mini-Mage Blubber Baron Captain's Parrot Magnataur Alpha
Kind of close, but Thrallmar Farseer has only 3 health and dies to many 2 drops.