I recently couldn't help but start thinking to myself what sort of class I might want to make if/when I participate in the next Class Creation Competition, and one concept I sort of like is that of the Mathematician or Geometer. Magical runes and languages are a common fantasy trope, and the magic of numerals and mathematical concepts isn't too dissimilar. That is, after all, how we end up with concepts like the Sacred Geometry. Plus, I sort of super duper love math puns (see: Sir Cumference), so I started getting thinking what sort of mechanics could make such a class play uniquely.
After scrapping a good number of potential custom keywords, I had an epiphany: What about half mana costs? There's so much design space out there that's currently difficult, if not impossible, to balance well because an effect might be overpowered at one mana cost but underpowered at the next mana cost up. For an extremely basic example, how would you cost a vanilla 5/5 minion? It's obviously better than Chillwind Yeti, so it should cost more than (4), but it's obviously worse than Pit Fighter, so it should cost less than (5). The solution is to simply have it cost (4½):
It's actually pretty easy to do this with a number of existing, simple effects. Want an AoE that does 2 damage to all enemy minions, so it's a little worse than Consecration but better than Volcanic Potion? Just make it cost (3½). Want a card that deals 4 damage to the enemy hero, so it's better than Sinister Strike but worse than Mind Blast? Just make it cost (1½). How about a vanilla 4/2 weapon, better than Ogre Warmaul but worse than Truesilver Champion? Just make it cost (3½).
Now, obviously, there's one big, important thing that needs to be taken into account about cards like this: It's impossible to play them on curve. I can't play Standard Deviant on turn 4 when I only have (4) mana. I can only play it on turn 5 when I have (5) mana. If that's the case, why wouldn't I rather just have a Pit Fighter? The answer to that is simply that the Standard Deviant still leave me ½ of a mana to play a ½-Cost card, while that Pit Fighter would only let me play 0-Cost cards. This calls for a readily available number of ½-Cost cards, and so I think these simple ideas are perfect for the Basic Set:
(I realize the ½ costs are a little off-center. I asked the person who runs Hearthcards to fix this, and they already did! I just haven't bothered to go back and remake the cards yet.)
This class is inherently going to shy away from tempo and midrange decks that encourage on-curve play and will instead probably be more aggro- or combo-focused. Still, I'm thinking that it might be good to have a hero power like "Add a random Basic Operation to your hand." just to be safe.
A few things to consider: 1) No, obviously this would not be the class's only mechanical gimmick. That would be terrible. Really, any class that can be boiled down to one gimmick is terrible. I'm not asking for feedback on the whole class concept here, but rather asking for feedback on this one particular aspect that I think would make a novel, interesting part of a class. 2) No, not every class card would have a half mana cost. That'd be like all Shaman cards having Overload. It'd be unnecessary and probably very annoying. I don't feel the need to force things into half mana costs if there's no reason they should need to go there. I just think it'd be a liberating option to have available. 3) In terms of the Mathematician class thematic concept, I may very well end up scrapping that just because it's actually really difficult to find good art that fits consistently. Regardless, I like this mechanical concept of half mana costs, and unless the idea turns out to be just terrible for obvious reasons I haven't realized yet, I may just end up using it for another class thematic concept that's easier to find good art for.
All of that said, is this idea just terrible for obvious reasons I haven't realized yet? Do you think there's potential merit to the unique balances spaces that it could open up? Or should I scrap it while I'm ahead?
The idea is good but I feel as though it adds to much confusion and annoyance with not having one full mana crystal, to include one of these 1/2 mana items means to include at least another one to get full value in one turn.
My thoughts on the issue of having to play two half-mana-cost cards in a turn to get full value are threefold:
1) Is not getting full value in a turn inherently so bad? I know that might sound like a stupid question, given the more recent curvestone metas, but that wasn't always the case. There have been plenty of deck types in Hearthstone's history that haven't much cared about playing perfectly on-curve every turn.
2) If this encourages a playstyle where you want to occasionally play more than one card a turn to maximize value, is that much worse than what Combo currently does for Rogue? Granted, I recognize the difference that you don't have to play two Combo cards a turn to benefit, but Rogues also aren't playing Combo cards every turn, and neither will this class play half-mana-cost cards every turn, so any loss of value should only happen about as occasionally as Rogues playing a Combo card without the Combo. Like I said, expecting every class card to be half-mana-costed is like expecting every Shaman card to have Overload, and even beyond that, neutral cards still exist.
3) Even if it does turn out to be a problem, is it a difficult one to address? Like I said, I'm considering having the Hero Power produce half-cost cards. Multiplication also inherently creates another half-cost card, and I'm considering ramp / cost manipulation as a prominant class theme anyway. A half-cost spell that grants half of an empty mana crystal would work, like a smaller Wild Growth, as would smaller Emperor Thaurissan like effects or something that reduce card costs by half instead of one.
No need for that, you can simply cap mana crystals to 20, give 2 every turn and then tune everything to whole number value. But that would be another game.
No need for that, you can simply cap mana crystals to 20, give 2 every turn and then tune everything to whole number value. But that would be another game.
This seems super gimmicky and doesn't really add anything to the game. Having half-cost cards doesn't really give you an advantage over having balanced, whole-cost cards. Plus, people like whole numbers. Making half-cost cards is just asking people not to like it. People are inherently disinclined from doing so, and will find reasons to dismiss it. Like I just did. Plus, you can make this effect without the eyesore of fractional mana costs. Add one half to all the mana costs of those cards and give them the keyword X, where X means "The next card you play with X this turn costs (1) less." It is functionally equivalent to 1/2 mana costs, but you can use all whole numbers.
This seems super gimmicky and doesn't really add anything to the game. Having half-cost cards doesn't really give you an advantage over having balanced, whole-cost cards. Plus, people like whole numbers. Making half-cost cards is just asking people not to like it. People are inherently disinclined from doing so, and will find reasons to dismiss it. Like I just did. Plus, you can make this effect without the eyesore of fractional mana costs. Add one half to all the mana costs of those cards and give them the keyword X, where X means "The next card you play with X this turn costs (1) less." It is functionally equivalent to 1/2 mana costs, but you can use all whole numbers.
Hmm, you made a few different points here, so let me see if I can address them individually:
1) About it being gimmicky, well, yeah, it's sort of a gimmick. If we're talking about mechanics that deal with card cost but don't seem "necessary", I think Overload might be a good comparison. What Overload adds to the game as a penalty probably make the design space that it opens up more obvious, but I don't think anybody would term Overload "gimmicky", because it doesn't over-saturate the Shaman class. Perhaps it was a mistake here to present just the idea out of context with the rest of the class, because only looking at one aspect, I can see how almost anything could give off a "gimmicky" impression. Hell, your Worgen's Hero Power is probably a great example We've seen that concept multiple times, of a rotating hero power that puts the hero into different "stances" that class cards benefit different from. But your Worgen isn't over-saturated with it and has a lot else going for it, so it doesn't end up comes across as gimmicky like it does in those other classes, but rather as one unique aspect of a whole interesting class. =)
2) I'm not sure your alternative keyword suggestion would work as well. It might functions effectively the same in some situations (when you play exactly two in one turn), but it also ends up yet another keyword to clog up card text, and one that seems on the complex side to me.
3) If people just don't like fractions, though, yeah, there's probably nothing I can do about that short of being extremely deliberate in how the class gets presented. =P
All of that said, it may no have been what I wanted to hear, and I might be being a little defensive about it, but thank you for at least actually reading the idea (unlike some people above) and giving me something substantive (unlike some other people above). I'll have to think if there's a better way to present the concept that might make the design space it opens up more obvious or exciting, and if not then I'll just scrap it. Or take the risk anyway but at least have a better idea of the criticisms I'll have to answer to. =)
This seems super gimmicky and doesn't really add anything to the game. Having half-cost cards doesn't really give you an advantage over having balanced, whole-cost cards. Plus, people like whole numbers. Making half-cost cards is just asking people not to like it. People are inherently disinclined from doing so, and will find reasons to dismiss it. Like I just did. Plus, you can make this effect without the eyesore of fractional mana costs. Add one half to all the mana costs of those cards and give them the keyword X, where X means "The next card you play with X this turn costs (1) less." It is functionally equivalent to 1/2 mana costs, but you can use all whole numbers.
Hmm, you made a few different points here, so let me see if I can address them individually:
1) About it being gimmicky, well, yeah, it's sort of a gimmick. If we're talking about mechanics that deal with card cost but don't seem "necessary", I think Overload might be a good comparison. What Overload adds to the game as a penalty probably make the design space that it opens up more obvious, but I don't think anybody would term Overload "gimmicky", because it doesn't over-saturate the Shaman class. Perhaps it was a mistake here to present just the idea out of context with the rest of the class, because only looking at one aspect, I can see how almost anything could give off a "gimmicky" impression. Hell, your Worgen's Hero Power is probably a great example We've seen that concept multiple times, of a rotating hero power that puts the hero into different "stances" that class cards benefit different from. But your Worgen isn't over-saturated with it and has a lot else going for it, so it doesn't end up comes across as gimmicky like it does in those other classes, but rather as one unique aspect of a whole interesting class. =)
2) I'm not sure your alternative keyword suggestion would work as well. It might functions effectively the same in some situations (when you play exactly two in one turn), but it also ends up yet another keyword to clog up card text, and one that seems on the complex side to me.
3) If people just don't like fractions, though, yeah, there's probably nothing I can do about that short of being extremely deliberate in how the class gets presented. =P
All of that said, it may no have been what I wanted to hear, and I might be being a little defensive about it, but thank you for at least actually reading the idea (unlike some people above) and giving me something substantive (unlike some other people above). I'll have to think if there's a better way to present the concept that might make the design space it opens up more obvious or exciting, and if not then I'll just scrap it. Or take the risk anyway but at least have a better idea of the criticisms I'll have to answer to. =)
Overload adds something to the game because it allows you to gain tempo advantage at the cost of decreased tempo on later turns. You get more than what you pay for on the initial turn. Combo adds something to the game because Combo cards are more efficient than their mana cost if the Combo is triggered. You get extra value if you play them as not the first card in your turn. This isn't like your effect because any card will trigger it, and the first card will generally be balanced regardless of what's played after it. My Worgen mechanic works similarly to Combo in giving you more value than the mana cost of the card if you activate it's effect. Or it provides Choose One-style versatility for the cards with both Worgen and Human.
Your effect doesn't add anything to the game because it doesn't work like these effects. Your cards aren't more efficient than whole-number cost cards. They are equally efficient, which means they add nothing that you couldn't have done with whole number cost cards. Playing a 3.5 and a 1.5 mana cost card is the same as playing a 4 mana card and a 1 mana card. So, what is the point of having fractional mana costs? If it doesn't add anything in terms of gameplay, and it doesn't give you any sort of advantage, it's what I would call a gimmick.
Actually, thinking about it more, half-mana costs provide a disadvantage. They are only equally efficient as whole-mana cards when playing more than one per turn. Otherwise, they are less efficient.
Hmm, it makes more sense when you put it like that. The design space is super interesting to me just because it's unexplored and opens up tons of new possibilities. But if those posibilities aren't granting any sort of actual benefit or advantage for existing, then they're not really practical, especially if they inherently come with the definite detriment that they cannot be played on curve alone, regardless of how that might be overcome.
Wait... So you're making an Arithmetician (Or at least, you have an Arithmetician as a concept for a class)? How about you apply mathematics into the game in another way. Like, something like this?
Okay, 1 or 2 of those might be going a bit far, but that's just an idea. Also, Sir Cumference is a joke name that I also like, and here, it's a double joke, 'cause he's chubby.
Oh, I had plenty of ideas for cards, ranging from perfectly practical to just silly fun, like so:
But all I was trying to nail down here was something specific mechanical I wanted to see if I could play with, and unfortunately it just turns out it's actually not that great of an idea. And, to be honest, I think I should scrap the Mathematician theme anyway, just because good art is like IMPOSSIBLE to find. ;_;
I recently couldn't help but start thinking to myself what sort of class I might want to make if/when I participate in the next Class Creation Competition, and one concept I sort of like is that of the Mathematician or Geometer. Magical runes and languages are a common fantasy trope, and the magic of numerals and mathematical concepts isn't too dissimilar. That is, after all, how we end up with concepts like the Sacred Geometry. Plus, I sort of super duper love math puns (see: Sir Cumference), so I started getting thinking what sort of mechanics could make such a class play uniquely.
After scrapping a good number of potential custom keywords, I had an epiphany: What about half mana costs?
There's so much design space out there that's currently difficult, if not impossible, to balance well because an effect might be overpowered at one mana cost but underpowered at the next mana cost up. For an extremely basic example, how would you cost a vanilla 5/5 minion? It's obviously better than Chillwind Yeti, so it should cost more than (4), but it's obviously worse than Pit Fighter, so it should cost less than (5). The solution is to simply have it cost (4½):
It's actually pretty easy to do this with a number of existing, simple effects. Want an AoE that does 2 damage to all enemy minions, so it's a little worse than Consecration but better than Volcanic Potion? Just make it cost (3½). Want a card that deals 4 damage to the enemy hero, so it's better than Sinister Strike but worse than Mind Blast? Just make it cost (1½). How about a vanilla 4/2 weapon, better than Ogre Warmaul but worse than Truesilver Champion? Just make it cost (3½).
Now, obviously, there's one big, important thing that needs to be taken into account about cards like this: It's impossible to play them on curve. I can't play Standard Deviant on turn 4 when I only have (4) mana. I can only play it on turn 5 when I have (5) mana. If that's the case, why wouldn't I rather just have a Pit Fighter? The answer to that is simply that the Standard Deviant still leave me ½ of a mana to play a ½-Cost card, while that Pit Fighter would only let me play 0-Cost cards. This calls for a readily available number of ½-Cost cards, and so I think these simple ideas are perfect for the Basic Set:
(I realize the ½ costs are a little off-center. I asked the person who runs Hearthcards to fix this, and they already did!
I just haven't bothered to go back and remake the cards yet.)
This class is inherently going to shy away from tempo and midrange decks that encourage on-curve play and will instead probably be more aggro- or combo-focused. Still, I'm thinking that it might be good to have a hero power like "Add a random Basic Operation to your hand." just to be safe.
A few things to consider:
1) No, obviously this would not be the class's only mechanical gimmick. That would be terrible. Really, any class that can be boiled down to one gimmick is terrible. I'm not asking for feedback on the whole class concept here, but rather asking for feedback on this one particular aspect that I think would make a novel, interesting part of a class.
2) No, not every class card would have a half mana cost. That'd be like all Shaman cards having Overload. It'd be unnecessary and probably very annoying. I don't feel the need to force things into half mana costs if there's no reason they should need to go there. I just think it'd be a liberating option to have available.
3) In terms of the Mathematician class thematic concept, I may very well end up scrapping that just because it's actually really difficult to find good art that fits consistently. Regardless, I like this mechanical concept of half mana costs, and unless the idea turns out to be just terrible for obvious reasons I haven't realized yet, I may just end up using it for another class thematic concept that's easier to find good art for.
All of that said, is this idea just terrible for obvious reasons I haven't realized yet? Do you think there's potential merit to the unique balances spaces that it could open up? Or should I scrap it while I'm ahead?
wtf
Custom cards :
CLASSES : Alchemist (CCC#5 | Phase V) | Chef (CCC#4)
EXPANSIONS : Year of the Scorpion (Year Comp)
No need for that, you can simply cap mana crystals to 20, give 2 every turn and then tune everything to whole number value. But that would be another game.
Check out my fun evolve decks
Evolve C'thun: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/743008-evolve-cthun
Evolve Jade: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/753851-evolve-jade
Evolve Elemental: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/813707-evolve-elemental
This seems super gimmicky and doesn't really add anything to the game. Having half-cost cards doesn't really give you an advantage over having balanced, whole-cost cards. Plus, people like whole numbers. Making half-cost cards is just asking people not to like it. People are inherently disinclined from doing so, and will find reasons to dismiss it. Like I just did. Plus, you can make this effect without the eyesore of fractional mana costs. Add one half to all the mana costs of those cards and give them the keyword X, where X means "The next card you play with X this turn costs (1) less." It is functionally equivalent to 1/2 mana costs, but you can use all whole numbers.
Come Play Make the Keyword!!!
Check out my Worgen Class in the Class Competition
Hell, your Worgen's Hero Power is probably a great example We've seen that concept multiple times, of a rotating hero power that puts the hero into different "stances" that class cards benefit different from. But your Worgen isn't over-saturated with it and has a lot else going for it, so it doesn't end up comes across as gimmicky like it does in those other classes, but rather as one unique aspect of a whole interesting class. =)
Come Play Make the Keyword!!!
Check out my Worgen Class in the Class Competition
Hmm, it makes more sense when you put it like that. The design space is super interesting to me just because it's unexplored and opens up tons of new possibilities. But if those posibilities aren't granting any sort of actual benefit or advantage for existing, then they're not really practical, especially if they inherently come with the definite detriment that they cannot be played on curve alone, regardless of how that might be overcome.
Back to the drawing board it is then, I guess. =P
Wait... So you're making an Arithmetician (Or at least, you have an Arithmetician as a concept for a class)? How about you apply mathematics into the game in another way. Like, something like this?
Okay, 1 or 2 of those might be going a bit far, but that's just an idea. Also, Sir Cumference is a joke name that I also like, and here, it's a double joke, 'cause he's chubby.
Oh, I had plenty of ideas for cards, ranging from perfectly practical to just silly fun, like so:
But all I was trying to nail down here was something specific mechanical I wanted to see if I could play with, and unfortunately it just turns out it's actually not that great of an idea. And, to be honest, I think I should scrap the Mathematician theme anyway, just because good art is like IMPOSSIBLE to find. ;_;