Last pass before I post in the submission thread, let me know if you think something's amiss.
Hero Power and Justicar upgrade.
Example Cards:
For the last example card, I'm not sure which of these I should go for (or should I go for a spell instead?):
BRM:
TGT
Commons:
Rares:
Epics:
I say go with Azure Ally. It still shows a level of support for a Dragon deck, but it also is just a good card. So its attractive to everyone, instead of more narrow.
I haven't really been active in the discussion but Slow Motion seems broken as hell. I know adding 2 to the cost isn't as high as Loatheb's 5, but getting it back if they don't or simply can't cast a spell is brutal. As early as turn 1 you can just start locking your opponent off spells, and if you draw the second you can keep them locked for more and more and more turns. This would make aggro outright insane, even if its not strongly supported by your class.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.
I have one more issue I'm facing. Feedback on my Scorched Earth card is that it might be kinda weak. Here are three versions of it:
The one on the left is the original. I thought it was balanced, trying to be conservative about power level. Is the middle one more balanced? It seems kinda powerful if they wanted to play more than one card. I also came up with the one on the right, because I'd really like to keep it at 6 mana to preserve my class' mana distribution. This effect is stronger, but they can get around it by playing spells or weapons. But it addresses the problem wherein you clear the board and your opponent just plays more minions on the next turn.
I think the original was balanced. There is a big difference to increasing the cost of a specific type of card, IE spells, and increasing the cost of all cards. No matter what you opponent is taxed by this. The 5 mana version is probably fine, but its certainly a lot more power IMO, and the other 6 mana version is super punishing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.
Last pass before I post in the submission thread, let me know if you think something's amiss.
Hero Power and Justicar upgrade.
Example Cards:
For the last example card, I'm not sure which of these I should go for (or should I go for a spell instead?):
BRM:
TGT
Commons:
Rares:
Epics:
I say go with Azure Ally. It still shows a level of support for a Dragon deck, but it also is just a good card. So its attractive to everyone, instead of more narrow.
I haven't really been active in the discussion but Slow Motion seems broken as hell. I know adding 2 to the cost isn't as high as Loatheb's 5, but getting it back if they don't or simply can't cast a spell is brutal. As early as turn 1 you can just start locking your opponent off spells, and if you draw the second you can keep them locked for more and more and more turns. This would make aggro outright insane, even if its not strongly supported by your class.
I was more inclined towards Azure Ally too, but mostly I realized I have no spells in my example cards (Unstable Wormhole doesn't really count since it's not from TGT/BRM) as I was writing the post, and I dunno if I should add one instead of the Dragon or maybe instead of Kairoz.
I'll admit I didn't realize how powerful this could become when you get the two copies going. As a single copy though I'd think you'd end up paying more mana for it than the opponent, but given the first point I guess I have to change it. And that is why I always post things that one more time to clear this kind of oversights.
I have two possible versions:
The first one I came up alongside the version I posted earlier. Technically, this one has more guaranteed value for less investment, seeing as it's a one off kind of thing, but it is a one off kind of thing. The second version would be an amended version. I would have just made the second part of the original effect into a Latent effect to at least give the opponent a respite to play their spells, but that's just way too wordy, so this is what I came up with. With this version I can only get the increase every other turn, or two turns in a row and then it's over. I suppose if you get both copies you could use one each turn to maintain the effect, but it still wouldn't be as aggravating as the original one I hope. Do let me know if you thing either is any good or if you have some other idea for this.
I have one more issue I'm facing. Feedback on my Scorched Earth card is that it might be kinda weak. Here are three versions of it:
The one on the left is the original. I thought it was balanced, trying to be conservative about power level. Is the middle one more balanced? It seems kinda powerful if they wanted to play more than one card. I also came up with the one on the right, because I'd really like to keep it at 6 mana to preserve my class' mana distribution. This effect is stronger, but they can get around it by playing spells or weapons. But it addresses the problem wherein you clear the board and your opponent just plays more minions on the next turn.
I think the original was balanced. There is a big difference to increasing the cost of a specific type of card, IE spells, and increasing the cost of all cards. No matter what you opponent is taxed by this. The 5 mana version is probably fine, but its certainly a lot more power IMO, and the other 6 mana version is super punishing.
It's punishing, but it's also pretty mana efficient for the amount of damage the AOE does. I think you're the only one that thought the original was balanced. Everyone else thought it was too weak. To be clear, are you saying the third card is OP, or is super-punishing but still fair? If your opponent just plays one minion, then both you and your opponent paid 2 more than they needed to, since this is a Consecration that costs 2 more.
I have one more issue I'm facing. Feedback on my Scorched Earth card is that it might be kinda weak. Here are three versions of it:
The one on the left is the original. I thought it was balanced, trying to be conservative about power level. Is the middle one more balanced? It seems kinda powerful if they wanted to play more than one card. I also came up with the one on the right, because I'd really like to keep it at 6 mana to preserve my class' mana distribution. This effect is stronger, but they can get around it by playing spells or weapons. But it addresses the problem wherein you clear the board and your opponent just plays more minions on the next turn.
I think the original was balanced. There is a big difference to increasing the cost of a specific type of card, IE spells, and increasing the cost of all cards. No matter what you opponent is taxed by this. The 5 mana version is probably fine, but its certainly a lot more power IMO, and the other 6 mana version is super punishing.
It's punishing, but it's also pretty mana efficient for the amount of damage the AOE does. I think you're the only one that thought the original was balanced. Everyone else thought it was too weak. To be clear, are you saying the third card is OP, or is super-punishing but still fair? If your opponent just plays one minion, then both you and your opponent paid 2 more than they needed to, since this is a Consecration that costs 2 more.
Ok, so here's my deal. Is every 1 mana you spend supposed to be worth exactly 1 mana the opponent has to spend in return? I don't feel like that is necessarily true. Also, you have the option to choose when to play this, but it then dramatically effects their entire turn. Like I said, Loatheb hit very heavy, but only on one card type. This limits them no matter what. If they don't play anything, that means your card completely cut them off of a play, that's worth however much mana they didn't spend, so between 4-5 the turn you play it, and up to 8 total. Also your card does make some cards impossible to cast. Your opponents only out is Deathwing, or maybe Anyfin Can Happen? Doesn't matter if this effectively does nothing, as it just means they can't win. You opponent is on Freeze mage and you know they are likely going to Alex you on turn 9 next turn, nope! They just Alex you, but to win they need all their mana? Nope! Your opponent is going to need to Equality + Consecrate to stay in the game turn 7? Nope! Your opponent is going to have to Reno turn 6 on the draw the stay in the game? Nope! This does a lot more work than it looks like it does on the surface. Also, yeah, they might only play one card, but that doesn't mean you didn't cut them off of playing any number of cards. They may play a card and then float 1 mana, so you got your 2 mana out of the 1 mana increase. If you have the 2 mana increase them being able to play 2 cards is extremely unlikely, then you only spent 2 mana to make them spend 4 and you cut them off of any number of on or slightly below curve players. Remember, this isn't just one type of card, this is anything they do. And its much more powerful of an effect for that reason.
Last pass before I post in the submission thread, let me know if you think something's amiss.
Hero Power and Justicar upgrade.
Example Cards:
For the last example card, I'm not sure which of these I should go for (or should I go for a spell instead?):
BRM:
TGT
Commons:
Rares:
Epics:
I say go with Azure Ally. It still shows a level of support for a Dragon deck, but it also is just a good card. So its attractive to everyone, instead of more narrow.
I haven't really been active in the discussion but Slow Motion seems broken as hell. I know adding 2 to the cost isn't as high as Loatheb's 5, but getting it back if they don't or simply can't cast a spell is brutal. As early as turn 1 you can just start locking your opponent off spells, and if you draw the second you can keep them locked for more and more and more turns. This would make aggro outright insane, even if its not strongly supported by your class.
I was more inclined towards Azure Ally too, but mostly I realized I have no spells in my example cards (Unstable Wormhole doesn't really count since it's not from TGT/BRM) as I was writing the post, and I dunno if I should add one instead of the Dragon or maybe instead of Kairoz.
I'll admit I didn't realize how powerful this could become when you get the two copies going. As a single copy though I'd think you'd end up paying more mana for it than the opponent, but given the first point I guess I have to change it. And that is why I always post things that one more time to clear this kind of oversights.
I have two possible versions:
The first one I came up alongside the version I posted earlier. Technically, this one has more guaranteed value for less investment, seeing as it's a one off kind of thing, but it is a one off kind of thing. The second version would be an amended version. I would have just made the second part of the original effect into a Latent effect to at least give the opponent a respite to play their spells, but that's just way too wordy, so this is what I came up with. With this version I can only get the increase every other turn, or two turns in a row and then it's over. I suppose if you get both copies you could use one each turn to maintain the effect, but it still wouldn't be as aggravating as the original one I hope. Do let me know if you thing either is any good or if you have some other idea for this.
I kind of like the original one more. I don't really like any version of this that is constantly reusable. Loatheb was a one time use effect because it was there to buy you a turn, but not allow you to constantly prevent your opponent from being able to play their cards. That's one of HS's big things. You can play your way. There is not discard. There is no forced mill. You can build your deck and play your cards. 2 of these limit that pretty greatly. Even the first one is pretty scary. Again, in aggro this can shut the opponent off of AoE just long enough to win a lot of the time. I would almost much rather see the Latent effect be a mana cost reduction for the spell itself or an increase in the effect. I know that probably seems way more boring or lame, but this sort of effect is very powerful, and when its a super cheap spell version its even more so.
I have one more issue I'm facing. Feedback on my Scorched Earth card is that it might be kinda weak. Here are three versions of it:
The one on the left is the original. I thought it was balanced, trying to be conservative about power level. Is the middle one more balanced? It seems kinda powerful if they wanted to play more than one card. I also came up with the one on the right, because I'd really like to keep it at 6 mana to preserve my class' mana distribution. This effect is stronger, but they can get around it by playing spells or weapons. But it addresses the problem wherein you clear the board and your opponent just plays more minions on the next turn.
I think the original was balanced. There is a big difference to increasing the cost of a specific type of card, IE spells, and increasing the cost of all cards. No matter what you opponent is taxed by this. The 5 mana version is probably fine, but its certainly a lot more power IMO, and the other 6 mana version is super punishing.
It's punishing, but it's also pretty mana efficient for the amount of damage the AOE does. I think you're the only one that thought the original was balanced. Everyone else thought it was too weak. To be clear, are you saying the third card is OP, or is super-punishing but still fair? If your opponent just plays one minion, then both you and your opponent paid 2 more than they needed to, since this is a Consecration that costs 2 more.
Ok, so here's my deal. Is every 1 mana you spend supposed to be worth exactly 1 mana the opponent has to spend in return? I don't feel like that is necessarily true. Also, you have the option to choose when to play this, but it then dramatically effects their entire turn. Like I said, Loatheb hit very heavy, but only on one card type. This limits them no matter what. If they don't play anything, that means your card completely cut them off of a play, that's worth however much mana they didn't spend, so between 4-5 the turn you play it, and up to 8 total. Also your card does make some cards impossible to cast. Your opponents only out is Deathwing, or maybe Anyfin Can Happen? Doesn't matter if this effectively does nothing, as it just means they can't win. You opponent is on Freeze mage and you know they are likely going to Alex you on turn 9 next turn, nope! They just Alex you, but to win they need all their mana? Nope! Your opponent is going to need to Equality + Consecrate to stay in the game turn 7? Nope! Your opponent is going to have to Reno turn 6 on the draw the stay in the game? Nope! This does a lot more work than it looks like it does on the surface. Also, yeah, they might only play one card, but that doesn't mean you didn't cut them off of playing any number of cards. They may play a card and then float 1 mana, so you got your 2 mana out of the 1 mana increase. If you have the 2 mana increase them being able to play 2 cards is extremely unlikely, then you only spent 2 mana to make them spend 4 and you cut them off of any number of on or slightly below curve players. Remember, this isn't just one type of card, this is anything they do. And its much more powerful of an effect for that reason.
I was referring specifically to the right-most card where it only increases minions' costs, so it is like Loatheb. They can play only spells and weapons and have no cost increase. I'm also a little confused because you now seem to be arguing that the original version isn't balanced?
I have one more issue I'm facing. Feedback on my Scorched Earth card is that it might be kinda weak. Here are three versions of it:
The one on the left is the original. I thought it was balanced, trying to be conservative about power level. Is the middle one more balanced? It seems kinda powerful if they wanted to play more than one card. I also came up with the one on the right, because I'd really like to keep it at 6 mana to preserve my class' mana distribution. This effect is stronger, but they can get around it by playing spells or weapons. But it addresses the problem wherein you clear the board and your opponent just plays more minions on the next turn.
I think the original was balanced. There is a big difference to increasing the cost of a specific type of card, IE spells, and increasing the cost of all cards. No matter what you opponent is taxed by this. The 5 mana version is probably fine, but its certainly a lot more power IMO, and the other 6 mana version is super punishing.
It's punishing, but it's also pretty mana efficient for the amount of damage the AOE does. I think you're the only one that thought the original was balanced. Everyone else thought it was too weak. To be clear, are you saying the third card is OP, or is super-punishing but still fair? If your opponent just plays one minion, then both you and your opponent paid 2 more than they needed to, since this is a Consecration that costs 2 more.
Ok, so here's my deal. Is every 1 mana you spend supposed to be worth exactly 1 mana the opponent has to spend in return? I don't feel like that is necessarily true. Also, you have the option to choose when to play this, but it then dramatically effects their entire turn. Like I said, Loatheb hit very heavy, but only on one card type. This limits them no matter what. If they don't play anything, that means your card completely cut them off of a play, that's worth however much mana they didn't spend, so between 4-5 the turn you play it, and up to 8 total. Also your card does make some cards impossible to cast. Your opponents only out is Deathwing, or maybe Anyfin Can Happen? Doesn't matter if this effectively does nothing, as it just means they can't win. You opponent is on Freeze mage and you know they are likely going to Alex you on turn 9 next turn, nope! They just Alex you, but to win they need all their mana? Nope! Your opponent is going to need to Equality + Consecrate to stay in the game turn 7? Nope! Your opponent is going to have to Reno turn 6 on the draw the stay in the game? Nope! This does a lot more work than it looks like it does on the surface. Also, yeah, they might only play one card, but that doesn't mean you didn't cut them off of playing any number of cards. They may play a card and then float 1 mana, so you got your 2 mana out of the 1 mana increase. If you have the 2 mana increase them being able to play 2 cards is extremely unlikely, then you only spent 2 mana to make them spend 4 and you cut them off of any number of on or slightly below curve players. Remember, this isn't just one type of card, this is anything they do. And its much more powerful of an effect for that reason.
I was referring specifically to the right-most card where it only increases minions' costs, so it is like Loatheb. They can play only spells and weapons and have no cost increase. I'm also a little confused because you now seem to be arguing that the original version isn't balanced?
I didn't see that on the right most card, I just saw that it said 2 for 6, my bad. I think that could be more than fine then. If its minions only it could even be 3 or 4. I think the original is fine. I was saying the 5 mana and what I thought was 6 mana for 2 on all cards would be even more insane then the basic one. Which I don't know if you thought about all the thing the original one did, besides be an overcost Consecration.
Sounds like you somewhat missread nurglings third effect as it only increases the cost of the opponents minions. I think that's fair since often people would still rather go with Consecration if they had the option. This can be really powerful at getting you back into the game as it can clear and stop them flooding again but it costing 2 more is a huge deal as if your behind on turn 4 you might be dead before you can even cast this. Plus if you are using it solely to stop your opponents plays (like C'Thun) then you basically gave up your turn to do that as you can't do too much with 4 mana and if you didn't benefit from the aoe you pretty much just postponed things a turn for a card.
I have one more issue I'm facing. Feedback on my Scorched Earth card is that it might be kinda weak. Here are three versions of it:
The one on the left is the original. I thought it was balanced, trying to be conservative about power level. Is the middle one more balanced? It seems kinda powerful if they wanted to play more than one card. I also came up with the one on the right, because I'd really like to keep it at 6 mana to preserve my class' mana distribution. This effect is stronger, but they can get around it by playing spells or weapons. But it addresses the problem wherein you clear the board and your opponent just plays more minions on the next turn.
I think the original was balanced. There is a big difference to increasing the cost of a specific type of card, IE spells, and increasing the cost of all cards. No matter what you opponent is taxed by this. The 5 mana version is probably fine, but its certainly a lot more power IMO, and the other 6 mana version is super punishing.
It's punishing, but it's also pretty mana efficient for the amount of damage the AOE does. I think you're the only one that thought the original was balanced. Everyone else thought it was too weak. To be clear, are you saying the third card is OP, or is super-punishing but still fair? If your opponent just plays one minion, then both you and your opponent paid 2 more than they needed to, since this is a Consecration that costs 2 more.
Ok, so here's my deal. Is every 1 mana you spend supposed to be worth exactly 1 mana the opponent has to spend in return? I don't feel like that is necessarily true. Also, you have the option to choose when to play this, but it then dramatically effects their entire turn. Like I said, Loatheb hit very heavy, but only on one card type. This limits them no matter what. If they don't play anything, that means your card completely cut them off of a play, that's worth however much mana they didn't spend, so between 4-5 the turn you play it, and up to 8 total. Also your card does make some cards impossible to cast. Your opponents only out is Deathwing, or maybe Anyfin Can Happen? Doesn't matter if this effectively does nothing, as it just means they can't win. You opponent is on Freeze mage and you know they are likely going to Alex you on turn 9 next turn, nope! They just Alex you, but to win they need all their mana? Nope! Your opponent is going to need to Equality + Consecrate to stay in the game turn 7? Nope! Your opponent is going to have to Reno turn 6 on the draw the stay in the game? Nope! This does a lot more work than it looks like it does on the surface. Also, yeah, they might only play one card, but that doesn't mean you didn't cut them off of playing any number of cards. They may play a card and then float 1 mana, so you got your 2 mana out of the 1 mana increase. If you have the 2 mana increase them being able to play 2 cards is extremely unlikely, then you only spent 2 mana to make them spend 4 and you cut them off of any number of on or slightly below curve players. Remember, this isn't just one type of card, this is anything they do. And its much more powerful of an effect for that reason.
I was referring specifically to the right-most card where it only increases minions' costs, so it is like Loatheb. They can play only spells and weapons and have no cost increase. I'm also a little confused because you now seem to be arguing that the original version isn't balanced?
I didn't see that on the right most card, I just saw that it said 2 for 6, my bad. I think that could be more than fine then. If its minions only it could even be 3 or 4. I think the original is fine. I was saying the 5 mana and what I thought was 6 mana for 2 on all cards would be even more insane then the basic one. Which I don't know if you thought about all the thing the original one did, besides be an overcost Consecration.
Okay, glad we cleared up the confusion so that we're talking about the same thing. I'm wary of increasing the Cost penalty of this version, because I think it's more powerful to increase minion costs than spell costs, because people more often play multiple minions than multiple spells, especially right after an AOE. Against Aggro, it'd be pretty devastating if you managed to wipe the board with this. I think I will go with this one though. Increasing all card costs is a pretty powerful effect, as you point out.
Last pass before I post in the submission thread, let me know if you think something's amiss.
Hero Power and Justicar upgrade.
Example Cards:
For the last example card, I'm not sure which of these I should go for (or should I go for a spell instead?):
BRM:
TGT
Commons:
Rares:
Epics:
I say go with Azure Ally. It still shows a level of support for a Dragon deck, but it also is just a good card. So its attractive to everyone, instead of more narrow.
I haven't really been active in the discussion but Slow Motion seems broken as hell. I know adding 2 to the cost isn't as high as Loatheb's 5, but getting it back if they don't or simply can't cast a spell is brutal. As early as turn 1 you can just start locking your opponent off spells, and if you draw the second you can keep them locked for more and more and more turns. This would make aggro outright insane, even if its not strongly supported by your class.
I was more inclined towards Azure Ally too, but mostly I realized I have no spells in my example cards (Unstable Wormhole doesn't really count since it's not from TGT/BRM) as I was writing the post, and I dunno if I should add one instead of the Dragon or maybe instead of Kairoz.
I'll admit I didn't realize how powerful this could become when you get the two copies going. As a single copy though I'd think you'd end up paying more mana for it than the opponent, but given the first point I guess I have to change it. And that is why I always post things that one more time to clear this kind of oversights.
I have two possible versions:
The first one I came up alongside the version I posted earlier. Technically, this one has more guaranteed value for less investment, seeing as it's a one off kind of thing, but it is a one off kind of thing. The second version would be an amended version. I would have just made the second part of the original effect into a Latent effect to at least give the opponent a respite to play their spells, but that's just way too wordy, so this is what I came up with. With this version I can only get the increase every other turn, or two turns in a row and then it's over. I suppose if you get both copies you could use one each turn to maintain the effect, but it still wouldn't be as aggravating as the original one I hope. Do let me know if you thing either is any good or if you have some other idea for this.
I kind of like the original one more. I don't really like any version of this that is constantly reusable. Loatheb was a one time use effect because it was there to buy you a turn, but not allow you to constantly prevent your opponent from being able to play their cards. That's one of HS's big things. You can play your way. There is not discard. There is no forced mill. You can build your deck and play your cards. 2 of these limit that pretty greatly. Even the first one is pretty scary. Again, in aggro this can shut the opponent off of AoE just long enough to win a lot of the time. I would almost much rather see the Latent effect be a mana cost reduction for the spell itself or an increase in the effect. I know that probably seems way more boring or lame, but this sort of effect is very powerful, and when its a super cheap spell version its even more so.
Just to make it clear, you're saying that out of the 3, the less aggravating one is the one that only affects a single spell (or 2 with Latent), right? As for aggro, I expect the class to be as successful at it as priest (that is too say, not very). I suppose a zoolock style may be sustainable at best, given the card draw, but I've pretty much cut off the class from any kind of face damage from the beginning. There is only one single spell that can even target face at all so far, and there's no weapons or charge either so little chance it can turn its back on control in favor of aggro like warrior did last set.
Would it feel stronger or weaker if I changed the effect to 'The next enemy spell or Hero Power costs (2) more.'? On one hand it would be a way to get rid of the cost increase without playing a spell if you only have expensive ones but on the other now it's also restricting the hero power, so I don't know. Would it feel better if it was costed at 2 instead of 1? The main effect would become 'Pay 2 mana and a card slot to make your opponent pay 2 mana', which doesn't really feel that good, though.
Last pass before I post in the submission thread, let me know if you think something's amiss.
Hero Power and Justicar upgrade.
Example Cards:
For the last example card, I'm not sure which of these I should go for (or should I go for a spell instead?):
BRM:
TGT
Commons:
Rares:
Epics:
I say go with Azure Ally. It still shows a level of support for a Dragon deck, but it also is just a good card. So its attractive to everyone, instead of more narrow.
I haven't really been active in the discussion but Slow Motion seems broken as hell. I know adding 2 to the cost isn't as high as Loatheb's 5, but getting it back if they don't or simply can't cast a spell is brutal. As early as turn 1 you can just start locking your opponent off spells, and if you draw the second you can keep them locked for more and more and more turns. This would make aggro outright insane, even if its not strongly supported by your class.
I was more inclined towards Azure Ally too, but mostly I realized I have no spells in my example cards (Unstable Wormhole doesn't really count since it's not from TGT/BRM) as I was writing the post, and I dunno if I should add one instead of the Dragon or maybe instead of Kairoz.
I'll admit I didn't realize how powerful this could become when you get the two copies going. As a single copy though I'd think you'd end up paying more mana for it than the opponent, but given the first point I guess I have to change it. And that is why I always post things that one more time to clear this kind of oversights.
I have two possible versions:
The first one I came up alongside the version I posted earlier. Technically, this one has more guaranteed value for less investment, seeing as it's a one off kind of thing, but it is a one off kind of thing. The second version would be an amended version. I would have just made the second part of the original effect into a Latent effect to at least give the opponent a respite to play their spells, but that's just way too wordy, so this is what I came up with. With this version I can only get the increase every other turn, or two turns in a row and then it's over. I suppose if you get both copies you could use one each turn to maintain the effect, but it still wouldn't be as aggravating as the original one I hope. Do let me know if you thing either is any good or if you have some other idea for this.
I kind of like the original one more. I don't really like any version of this that is constantly reusable. Loatheb was a one time use effect because it was there to buy you a turn, but not allow you to constantly prevent your opponent from being able to play their cards. That's one of HS's big things. You can play your way. There is not discard. There is no forced mill. You can build your deck and play your cards. 2 of these limit that pretty greatly. Even the first one is pretty scary. Again, in aggro this can shut the opponent off of AoE just long enough to win a lot of the time. I would almost much rather see the Latent effect be a mana cost reduction for the spell itself or an increase in the effect. I know that probably seems way more boring or lame, but this sort of effect is very powerful, and when its a super cheap spell version its even more so.
Just to make it clear, you're saying that out of the 3, the less aggravating one is the one that only affects a single spell (or 2 with Latent), right? As for aggro, I expect the class to be as successful at it as priest (that is too say, not very). I suppose a zoolock style may be sustainable at best, given the card draw, but I've pretty much cut off the class from any kind of face damage from the beginning. There is only one single spell that can even target face at all so far, and there's no weapons or charge either so little chance it can turn its back on control in favor of aggro like warrior did last set.
Would it feel stronger or weaker if I changed the effect to 'The next enemy spell or Hero Power costs (2) more.'? On one hand it would be a way to get rid of the cost increase without playing a spell if you only have expensive ones but on the other now it's also restricting the hero power, so I don't know. Would it feel better if it was costed at 2 instead of 1? The main effect would become 'Pay 2 mana and a card slot to make your opponent pay 2 mana', which doesn't really feel that good, though.
If you're confident aggro won't be an issue I think you can go whatever way you want. Though I still think the third options is probably the most frustrating. I did misread the original one. Its definitely weak. I thought it was all spells, and the latent increased the duration to 2 turns. But the effect lasting 2 turns seemed really strong for aggro. Obviously on Loatheb the effect cost 1 stat point or roughly .5 mana. So I think 1 mana is a fine cost.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.
Centuries ago, the Lords of Winter’s Fall fell victim to the Worgen curse. The exact circumstances are shrowded in mystery, but the lord who brought the curse upon his family was a renowned mage. A small, secluded principality in the Alterac Mountains, Winter’s Fall was completely cut off from the outside world after this calamity, to hide their lord’s embarassment. In time, the lords learned to control their Worgen curse, shapeshifting at will between human and wolf form, but the curse was never lifted, nor could they remain as humans for long, and so their kingdom’s long isolation continued. Recently, the new lord of Winter’s Fall, Howe Hark, has learned that a new kingdom of Worgen, Gilneas. With the threat posed by the Forsaken, he has ended his seclusion and brought his forces to the aid of Gilneas and the alliance. The Young Wolf, as he is known, is known for both his brilliant military strategy and savagery on the field of battle. Mastery of his Worgen form means he is alternately rallying his loyal men into battle and tearing out the hearts of his enemies.
Reminder about how the class works:
The Worgen class centers around shifting between Worgen and Human form. Using the Worgen Form hero power (which you start the game with) gives you +1 Attack that turn and transforms you into a Worgen. This changes your hero power to Human Form, but you can’t use it until the next turn. When Human Form is used, your Hero heals 2 health and transforms into a human. The unique keywords of the class are Worgen and Human, shown in the tooltip.
Cards with these keywords trigger an extra effect if you play them while you're in that form. Human/Worgen keyword cards are inefficient if played in the wrong form and extra efficient if played while in the right form. One of the key mechanics of the class is switching between forms at the right times to efficiently play cards. Also note that other classes are always considered to be in Human form, so they can always use cards they acquire with the Human keyword.
There is a binary theme to the class, based on the two forms you switch between. Howe Hark has cards that focus on the savagery of his Worgen form, dealing damage or buffing attack, similar to Druid shapeshift-themed cards, and also cards that focus on supporting or buffing his minions, representing how he inspires and leads his men while in human form. There are also several secondary themes. The class has cards themed to snowy Alterac homeland of Howe Hark (including Freeze cards). There are also going to be cards that focus on class cards, representing the solidarity of Worgen.
Because of the hero power and binary theme, the class is well-suited for hybrid playstyles, and lots of cards will be versatile. If the hero power is used effectively, Worgen excels at tempo, since Human/Worgen cards are mana efficient when in the right form. This is also a weapon class, and both cards and your hero power buff your attack and restore health, so it is good at controlling the board, as well. Some of these control tools could be repurposed for Aggro, as well, especially in a Pirate deck.
Example Cards
(Explanations in Spoilers)
Heated Brawler - This is essentially an AOE minion. It does it damage normally when it's attacked, or when you go face with it. When you attack an enemy minion, it takes damage from that minion, but it's damage is split evenly among all enemies, including the enemy hero. This makes it difficult to kill individual minions with it, but good against multiple smaller minions. The damage is rounded up so that it's never zero. This effect works best with buffs, like Champion of Azeroth from my Basic set.
Scorched Earth - One of the problems with a big AOE is that you use up your turn clearing the board and your opponent can just fill it up again next turn. This card addresses that problem by making enemy minions cost more after you clear the board. It is expensive for the amount of damage it does to compensate. Your opponent can bypass the effect by playing just spells or weapons, but that plays into the goal of not having them fill up the board.
Grizzled Weaponmaster - This would be a very powerful effect with high durability weapons like Doomhammer, but Worgen has only a 3/2, a 6/2, and either a 4/2 or a 6/1. you can get more value out of your weapon this way. A 4/2 becomes a 3/4 (when played in Worgen form), dealing 50% more damage overall. This is also meant to be a tech card against Aggro, where a 2/4 might be more useful than a 4/2. Overall, it's a quirky effect you could develop a combo around that plays into the Worgen theme of attacking a lot with your hero.
Winter Hunt - This is a card that supports your minions, another theme of the Worgen class, by Freezing the enemy. The Alpine Wolves you summon are Immune to Freeze, however, which gives them free reign to attack whatever they want next turn. This combos well with Worgen buff cards from the Classic set like Inspiration and Rally, and it also works well with Flank from TGT.
Blackrock Mountain:
The Grand Tournament:
Justicar Trueheart Hero Power:
Expert Set:
Basic Set:
Hunted - This is one removal option for Worgen, similar to Hunter's Mark. You play this and follow it up with another source of damage that normally would not have killed your target. The effect is permanent, so all damage from then on is doubled for that minion.
Alpine Wolf - With Champion of Alterac, it’s important that there’s a 1-Cost class minion as a potential target. This is basically just the same as Enchanted Raven. “Cannot be Frozen” is not worth anything, because it’s almost never relevant. There will be at least one source of Freezing allies in later sets, so it will have some relevance.
Grievous Wounds - This is the Basic direct removal card. It’s a cheap card, but with a very restrictive limitation. While Execute can be paired with any source of damage, and it is often paired with spell damage or minion AOEs, you can only play this after attacking a minion. Execute was too strong at 1, but this would not be. It does combine well with the Worgen Form hero power.
Champion of Alterac - This card is reflective of the Worgen class’ support side, which represents Howe Hark’s human side. It’s a mana-efficient buff spell, but you can only cast it on a class minion. That’s more restrictive than you might initially think. The only way to play it on turn 2 is if you played Alpine Wolf on Turn 1. I don’t plan on making any other 1-Cost minions.
Gilnean Reinforcements - This is Worgen’s card draw. A number of classes have variations of this spell (Arcane Intellect, Ancestral Knowledge, Burgle, Thoughtsteal). This take reflects Worgen’s focus on class cards. This makes the spell both more restrictive, since it can only draw certain cards in your deck, and is useless if you have too few class cards, and more reliable, since you have a better idea of what it will give you.
Icy Shortsword - Worgen is a weapon class. Howe Hark is not just all about tearing things up with his claws. I mean, he doesn’t have any when he’s in human form, anyway. Weapons will not be as strong a focus as in Warrior. It will be more like in Shaman. You can see that here, as this is not as strong a weapon as Fiery War Axe, but it has more utility in being able to Freeze, which is a secondary theme of the class, based on Howe Hark’s Alterac homeland.
Krennan’s Potion - Worgen focuses on using their Hero Power to switch forms regularly, so they need some support for that. This card can both help you recover health, which you may lose from attacking minions, and switch forms more easily, either on this turn or the next.
Leap - This represents leaping into the midst of the enemy's ranks to attack, so they are forced to attack you. Direct damage spells are going to be very limited for Worgen, since the class focuses more on dealing damage with weapons and buffing your hero’s attack. This card can be used both for removal, and to protect your minions. When you play this, your hero has Taunt during your opponent’s next turn, which means your minions can’t be attacked. It’s like half of a Conceal, because your minions can still be targeted by spells and Battlecries.
Winter Has Come - This is Worgen’s AOE option. It’s pretty efficient for its cost, because it will damage any neutral minions you have in play. This also reflects Worgen’s focus on class minions. It represents the hardiness of your Worgen and Alterac followers.
Worgen Assassin - With the lack of direct damage spells, Worgen needs a card like this. Similar to Fire Elemental, you can play this later in the game as a removal option, although it lacks Fire Elemental’s ability as a finisher. There was a lot of debate about this card, and I think we reached the consensus that, in its current form, it is as powerful as Fire Elemental. It’s a strong card, but Worgen needs this as a substitute for damage spells.
Last pass before I post in the submission thread, let me know if you think something's amiss.
Hero Power and Justicar upgrade.
Example Cards:
For the last example card, I'm not sure which of these I should go for (or should I go for a spell instead?):
BRM:
TGT
Commons:
Rares:
Epics:
I say go with Azure Ally. It still shows a level of support for a Dragon deck, but it also is just a good card. So its attractive to everyone, instead of more narrow.
I haven't really been active in the discussion but Slow Motion seems broken as hell. I know adding 2 to the cost isn't as high as Loatheb's 5, but getting it back if they don't or simply can't cast a spell is brutal. As early as turn 1 you can just start locking your opponent off spells, and if you draw the second you can keep them locked for more and more and more turns. This would make aggro outright insane, even if its not strongly supported by your class.
I was more inclined towards Azure Ally too, but mostly I realized I have no spells in my example cards (Unstable Wormhole doesn't really count since it's not from TGT/BRM) as I was writing the post, and I dunno if I should add one instead of the Dragon or maybe instead of Kairoz.
I'll admit I didn't realize how powerful this could become when you get the two copies going. As a single copy though I'd think you'd end up paying more mana for it than the opponent, but given the first point I guess I have to change it. And that is why I always post things that one more time to clear this kind of oversights.
I have two possible versions:
The first one I came up alongside the version I posted earlier. Technically, this one has more guaranteed value for less investment, seeing as it's a one off kind of thing, but it is a one off kind of thing. The second version would be an amended version. I would have just made the second part of the original effect into a Latent effect to at least give the opponent a respite to play their spells, but that's just way too wordy, so this is what I came up with. With this version I can only get the increase every other turn, or two turns in a row and then it's over. I suppose if you get both copies you could use one each turn to maintain the effect, but it still wouldn't be as aggravating as the original one I hope. Do let me know if you thing either is any good or if you have some other idea for this.
I kind of like the original one more. I don't really like any version of this that is constantly reusable. Loatheb was a one time use effect because it was there to buy you a turn, but not allow you to constantly prevent your opponent from being able to play their cards. That's one of HS's big things. You can play your way. There is not discard. There is no forced mill. You can build your deck and play your cards. 2 of these limit that pretty greatly. Even the first one is pretty scary. Again, in aggro this can shut the opponent off of AoE just long enough to win a lot of the time. I would almost much rather see the Latent effect be a mana cost reduction for the spell itself or an increase in the effect. I know that probably seems way more boring or lame, but this sort of effect is very powerful, and when its a super cheap spell version its even more so.
Just to make it clear, you're saying that out of the 3, the less aggravating one is the one that only affects a single spell (or 2 with Latent), right? As for aggro, I expect the class to be as successful at it as priest (that is too say, not very). I suppose a zoolock style may be sustainable at best, given the card draw, but I've pretty much cut off the class from any kind of face damage from the beginning. There is only one single spell that can even target face at all so far, and there's no weapons or charge either so little chance it can turn its back on control in favor of aggro like warrior did last set.
Would it feel stronger or weaker if I changed the effect to 'The next enemy spell or Hero Power costs (2) more.'? On one hand it would be a way to get rid of the cost increase without playing a spell if you only have expensive ones but on the other now it's also restricting the hero power, so I don't know. Would it feel better if it was costed at 2 instead of 1? The main effect would become 'Pay 2 mana and a card slot to make your opponent pay 2 mana', which doesn't really feel that good, though.
If you're confident aggro won't be an issue I think you can go whatever way you want. Though I still think the third options is probably the most frustrating. I did misread the original one. Its definitely weak. I thought it was all spells, and the latent increased the duration to 2 turns. But the effect lasting 2 turns seemed really strong for aggro. Obviously on Loatheb the effect cost 1 stat point or roughly .5 mana. So I think 1 mana is a fine cost.
I'm not too worried about aggro but you're right the last one is just too exploitable. And unless I'm badly mistaken I've realized there's an interaction that would also make the first one rather frustrating too:
If I'm not mistaken playing the both of them would make enemy spells cost 2 more and then if the next spell your opponent casts is countered then it wouldn't count as casted so you'd get Slow Motion back anyway. Or at least that's what I think would happen, which would be rather aggravating I believe.
About the interaction of Slow Motion and Peer into the Future, I'm not sure if it would work as you say, but it could be tested by having a spell be countered by Counterspell while the caster has a Flamewaker or other card like that in play. I atleast assume that it would work the same way.
About the interaction of Slow Motion and Peer into the Future, I'm not sure if it would work as you say, but it could be tested by having a spell be countered by Counterspell while the caster has a Flamewaker or other card like that in play. I atleast assume that it would work the same way.
I will test it out, and tell the results here. Wait a bit guys.
About the interaction of Slow Motion and Peer into the Future, I'm not sure if it would work as you say, but it could be tested by having a spell be countered by Counterspell while the caster has a Flamewaker or other card like that in play. I atleast assume that it would work the same way.
I will test it out, and tell the results here. Wait a bit guys.
The result is: No, Flamewaker does not trigger if the spell is countered. Hope I've been helpfull.
About the interaction of Slow Motion and Peer into the Future, I'm not sure if it would work as you say, but it could be tested by having a spell be countered by Counterspell while the caster has a Flamewaker or other card like that in play. I atleast assume that it would work the same way.
I will test it out, and tell the results here. Wait a bit guys.
The result is: No, Flamewaker does not trigger if the spell is countered. Hope I've been helpfull.
It's as I suspected then, the spell doesn't count as cast if countered.
About the interaction of Slow Motion and Peer into the Future, I'm not sure if it would work as you say, but it could be tested by having a spell be countered by Counterspell while the caster has a Flamewaker or other card like that in play. I atleast assume that it would work the same way.
I will test it out, and tell the results here. Wait a bit guys.
The result is: No, Flamewaker does not trigger if the spell is countered. Hope I've been helpfull.
It's as I suspected then, the spell doesn't count as cast if countered.
I don't think this is a good comparison. Flamewaker triggers when a spell is 'cast'. Your card says it triggers when 'played'. Is that the same thing? A better example would be seeing if Questing Adventurer triggers when you play a spell but it's countered. Since you've come up with a new mechanic, I also think it would be fine if you defined the interaction between these two cards. Slow Motion isn't exactly the same as any card that currently exists as I see it.,
Last pass before I post in the submission thread, let me know if you think something's amiss.
Hero Power and Justicar upgrade.
Example Cards:
For the last example card, I'm not sure which of these I should go for (or should I go for a spell instead?):
BRM:
TGT
Commons:
Rares:
Epics:
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.
Come Play Make the Keyword!!!
Check out my Worgen Class in the Class Competition
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.
Come Play Make the Keyword!!!
Check out my Worgen Class in the Class Competition
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.
@The_Odinson
Sounds like you somewhat missread nurglings third effect as it only increases the cost of the opponents minions. I think that's fair since often people would still rather go with Consecration if they had the option. This can be really powerful at getting you back into the game as it can clear and stop them flooding again but it costing 2 more is a huge deal as if your behind on turn 4 you might be dead before you can even cast this. Plus if you are using it solely to stop your opponents plays (like C'Thun) then you basically gave up your turn to do that as you can't do too much with 4 mana and if you didn't benefit from the aoe you pretty much just postponed things a turn for a card.
EDIT: Nvm slow typing got me lol
Check out my Custom Classes (Scribe, Alchemist, and Battlemage)!
Come Play Make the Keyword!!!
Check out my Worgen Class in the Class Competition
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.
Final Draft:
The Worgen Class
Lore:
Centuries ago, the Lords of Winter’s Fall fell victim to the Worgen curse. The exact circumstances are shrowded in mystery, but the lord who brought the curse upon his family was a renowned mage. A small, secluded principality in the Alterac Mountains, Winter’s Fall was completely cut off from the outside world after this calamity, to hide their lord’s embarassment. In time, the lords learned to control their Worgen curse, shapeshifting at will between human and wolf form, but the curse was never lifted, nor could they remain as humans for long, and so their kingdom’s long isolation continued. Recently, the new lord of Winter’s Fall, Howe Hark, has learned that a new kingdom of Worgen, Gilneas. With the threat posed by the Forsaken, he has ended his seclusion and brought his forces to the aid of Gilneas and the alliance. The Young Wolf, as he is known, is known for both his brilliant military strategy and savagery on the field of battle. Mastery of his Worgen form means he is alternately rallying his loyal men into battle and tearing out the hearts of his enemies.
Reminder about how the class works:
The Worgen class centers around shifting between Worgen and Human form. Using the Worgen Form hero power (which you start the game with) gives you +1 Attack that turn and transforms you into a Worgen. This changes your hero power to Human Form, but you can’t use it until the next turn. When Human Form is used, your Hero heals 2 health and transforms into a human. The unique keywords of the class are Worgen and Human, shown in the tooltip.
Cards with these keywords trigger an extra effect if you play them while you're in that form. Human/Worgen keyword cards are inefficient if played in the wrong form and extra efficient if played while in the right form. One of the key mechanics of the class is switching between forms at the right times to efficiently play cards. Also note that other classes are always considered to be in Human form, so they can always use cards they acquire with the Human keyword.
There is a binary theme to the class, based on the two forms you switch between. Howe Hark has cards that focus on the savagery of his Worgen form, dealing damage or buffing attack, similar to Druid shapeshift-themed cards, and also cards that focus on supporting or buffing his minions, representing how he inspires and leads his men while in human form. There are also several secondary themes. The class has cards themed to snowy Alterac homeland of Howe Hark (including Freeze cards). There are also going to be cards that focus on class cards, representing the solidarity of Worgen.
Because of the hero power and binary theme, the class is well-suited for hybrid playstyles, and lots of cards will be versatile. If the hero power is used effectively, Worgen excels at tempo, since Human/Worgen cards are mana efficient when in the right form. This is also a weapon class, and both cards and your hero power buff your attack and restore health, so it is good at controlling the board, as well. Some of these control tools could be repurposed for Aggro, as well, especially in a Pirate deck.
Example Cards
(Explanations in Spoilers)
Heated Brawler - This is essentially an AOE minion. It does it damage normally when it's attacked, or when you go face with it. When you attack an enemy minion, it takes damage from that minion, but it's damage is split evenly among all enemies, including the enemy hero. This makes it difficult to kill individual minions with it, but good against multiple smaller minions. The damage is rounded up so that it's never zero. This effect works best with buffs, like Champion of Azeroth from my Basic set.
Scorched Earth - One of the problems with a big AOE is that you use up your turn clearing the board and your opponent can just fill it up again next turn. This card addresses that problem by making enemy minions cost more after you clear the board. It is expensive for the amount of damage it does to compensate. Your opponent can bypass the effect by playing just spells or weapons, but that plays into the goal of not having them fill up the board.
Grizzled Weaponmaster - This would be a very powerful effect with high durability weapons like Doomhammer, but Worgen has only a 3/2, a 6/2, and either a 4/2 or a 6/1. you can get more value out of your weapon this way. A 4/2 becomes a 3/4 (when played in Worgen form), dealing 50% more damage overall. This is also meant to be a tech card against Aggro, where a 2/4 might be more useful than a 4/2. Overall, it's a quirky effect you could develop a combo around that plays into the Worgen theme of attacking a lot with your hero.
Winter Hunt - This is a card that supports your minions, another theme of the Worgen class, by Freezing the enemy. The Alpine Wolves you summon are Immune to Freeze, however, which gives them free reign to attack whatever they want next turn. This combos well with Worgen buff cards from the Classic set like Inspiration and Rally, and it also works well with Flank from TGT.
Blackrock Mountain:
The Grand Tournament:
Justicar Trueheart Hero Power:
Expert Set:
Basic Set:
Hunted - This is one removal option for Worgen, similar to Hunter's Mark. You play this and follow it up with another source of damage that normally would not have killed your target. The effect is permanent, so all damage from then on is doubled for that minion.
Alpine Wolf - With Champion of Alterac, it’s important that there’s a 1-Cost class minion as a potential target. This is basically just the same as Enchanted Raven. “Cannot be Frozen” is not worth anything, because it’s almost never relevant. There will be at least one source of Freezing allies in later sets, so it will have some relevance.
Grievous Wounds - This is the Basic direct removal card. It’s a cheap card, but with a very restrictive limitation. While Execute can be paired with any source of damage, and it is often paired with spell damage or minion AOEs, you can only play this after attacking a minion. Execute was too strong at 1, but this would not be. It does combine well with the Worgen Form hero power.
Champion of Alterac - This card is reflective of the Worgen class’ support side, which represents Howe Hark’s human side. It’s a mana-efficient buff spell, but you can only cast it on a class minion. That’s more restrictive than you might initially think. The only way to play it on turn 2 is if you played Alpine Wolf on Turn 1. I don’t plan on making any other 1-Cost minions.
Gilnean Reinforcements - This is Worgen’s card draw. A number of classes have variations of this spell (Arcane Intellect, Ancestral Knowledge, Burgle, Thoughtsteal). This take reflects Worgen’s focus on class cards. This makes the spell both more restrictive, since it can only draw certain cards in your deck, and is useless if you have too few class cards, and more reliable, since you have a better idea of what it will give you.
Icy Shortsword - Worgen is a weapon class. Howe Hark is not just all about tearing things up with his claws. I mean, he doesn’t have any when he’s in human form, anyway. Weapons will not be as strong a focus as in Warrior. It will be more like in Shaman. You can see that here, as this is not as strong a weapon as Fiery War Axe, but it has more utility in being able to Freeze, which is a secondary theme of the class, based on Howe Hark’s Alterac homeland.
Krennan’s Potion - Worgen focuses on using their Hero Power to switch forms regularly, so they need some support for that. This card can both help you recover health, which you may lose from attacking minions, and switch forms more easily, either on this turn or the next.
Leap - This represents leaping into the midst of the enemy's ranks to attack, so they are forced to attack you. Direct damage spells are going to be very limited for Worgen, since the class focuses more on dealing damage with weapons and buffing your hero’s attack. This card can be used both for removal, and to protect your minions. When you play this, your hero has Taunt during your opponent’s next turn, which means your minions can’t be attacked. It’s like half of a Conceal, because your minions can still be targeted by spells and Battlecries.
Winter Has Come - This is Worgen’s AOE option. It’s pretty efficient for its cost, because it will damage any neutral minions you have in play. This also reflects Worgen’s focus on class minions. It represents the hardiness of your Worgen and Alterac followers.
Worgen Assassin - With the lack of direct damage spells, Worgen needs a card like this. Similar to Fire Elemental, you can play this later in the game as a removal option, although it lacks Fire Elemental’s ability as a finisher. There was a lot of debate about this card, and I think we reached the consensus that, in its current form, it is as powerful as Fire Elemental. It’s a strong card, but Worgen needs this as a substitute for damage spells.
Come Play Make the Keyword!!!
Check out my Worgen Class in the Class Competition
About the interaction of Slow Motion and Peer into the Future, I'm not sure if it would work as you say, but it could be tested by having a spell be countered by Counterspell while the caster has a Flamewaker or other card like that in play. I atleast assume that it would work the same way.
I have no Idea what I am doing, help
I have no Idea what I am doing, help
Come Play Make the Keyword!!!
Check out my Worgen Class in the Class Competition