ASYLUM'S GAUNTLET (Class Creation Competition #3) - Phase I Discussion - Fan Creations - Hearthstone General - HearthPwn Forums

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ASYLUM'S GAUNTLET (Class Creation Competition #3) - Phase I Discussion

#914 Jan 16, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Since there will be no voting for this phase (winners on upvotes only), I'll sing my praises to my favorite choices here instead if that's allowed.
I voted a bunch more other than these, but these are my favorites among them.

My favorites has to be:

Storyteller
Unique and flavorful, balanced hero power, showcase cards that represent the class very well.

Blood Mage
Another unique mechanic, interesting (though not 100% sold on it) hero power, showcase cards not the best but it gets my vote on the back of that Siphon keyword.

Stargazer
Powerful control class that shuffles tokens that can become cards, essentially allowing you to run more that 2 copies of a card. Showcase cards not very strong, but I see the potential.

Titan
To be a good class in this CCC is to utilize mechanics and interactions Blizz has yet to explore. The Titan class does this by interacting with cost. Showcases demonstrate this excellently, and I could imagine running all three cards in any Titan deck.

Honorable mention to:

Seer
Another interesting mechanic, but I’m on the fence on how reliable it would be in a real game. This is one of those things that needs more cards to show its true power, as it currently feels like a lot of upkeep for minor value. It needs more ways to transport characters reliably (not RNG like Astral Initiate) other than your hero power.

That Randall Numan robot class thing with its Maintenence mechanic that basically allows you to tailor your RNG, but it seems he neglected to fix the post issues Asylum raised and will probably be disqualified.

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If you got the coin, the Mercenaries get going. Vote for The Mercenary for CCC #3.
#915 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Well since I'm clearly not getting through to the next round, any chance of getting feedback as to where I went wrong with my submission?

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#916 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Quote from Mentor_X >>

Well since I'm clearly not getting through to the next round, any chance of getting feedback as to where I went wrong with my submission?

I don't think a class having 100% guarenteed spell damage each turn should they want it is a very popular concept, and though this could still make up to be an interesting class I don't think your example cards are showing it off very well. Your Emerald Sprite, though it might be cool for a basic card, doesn't show off the basic idea of the class at all, the Mountain Sprite, I don't think should have been named so similarly to the Emerald Sprite btw, seems like a card that only works while quite far in the lead due to requiring multiple minions to work, if they have so much as a holy smite it dies, which means the card either falls flat or is extremely unfun to play against, because if you're behind and have no removal, the Mountain Sprite will just continuously give everything you have taunt while being immortal itself. And finally, your last card is the only card showing any synergy with your hero power, yet it's not a damaging card. I really think you should have shown at least one spell that actually did damage somewhere in the example cards, because that's kind of the thing that defines your class. Also, Solace seems like a bit of a win more card. You have to have a pretty big board of damaged minions and then you have to hero power and likely azure drake before playing it to heal for something like 6 or 7. If you have no board, like what a class based around spell damage would habve a lot of the time, it's completely worthless.

Last edited by maxlot on Jan 17, 2017

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#917 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Quote from Mentor_X >>

Well since I'm clearly not getting through to the next round, any chance of getting feedback as to where I went wrong with my submission?

Spell Damage is worth a lot, and I think people worry about how it can easily be abused. However, I think the main problem is just that it's not a very exciting overall concept to begin with.

Emerald Sprite could just as easily belong to any other class or even neutral. It's just the Elusive keyword. Regardless of balance, it's just not a fun showcase card. Mountain Sprite is just okay. The only good showcase here is Solace, which demonstrates how your class is different from the rest, a card that gains value from having Spell Damage on the board.

Basically what you're lacking is identity.

If you look at some of the other entires with more votes, they have a clear direction. The Titan class, for example, wants to play around with minion costs. Its hero power and three showcase cards all show off this experimentation with minion costs. A spell whose damage is based on the cost of the spell itself, an overstatted cycle minion with a "drawback" that becomes a boon in the right circumstances, a board clear that gets better if you played with the cost mechanic.

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#920 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Quote from thebangzats >>

Quote from Mentor_X >>

Well since I'm clearly not getting through to the next round, any chance of getting feedback as to where I went wrong with my submission?

Spell Damage is worth a lot, and I think people worry about how it can easily be abused. However, I think the main problem is just that it's not a very exciting overall concept to begin with.

Emerald Sprite could just as easily belong to any other class or even neutral. It's just the Elusive keyword. Regardless of balance, it's just not a fun showcase card. Mountain Sprite is just okay. The only good showcase here is Solace, which demonstrates how your class is different from the rest, a card that gains value from having Spell Damage on the board.

Basically what you're lacking is identity.

If you look at some of the other entires with more votes, they have a clear direction. The Titan class, for example, wants to play around with minion costs. Its hero power and three showcase cards all show off this experimentation with minion costs. A spell whose damage is based on the cost of the spell itself, an overstatted cycle minion with a "drawback" that becomes a boon in the right circumstances, a board clear that gets better if you played with the cost mechanic.

Quote from maxlot >>

Quote from Mentor_X >>

Well since I'm clearly not getting through to the next round, any chance of getting feedback as to where I went wrong with my submission?

I don't think a class having 100% guarenteed spell damage each turn should they want it is a very popular concept, and though this could still make up to be an interesting class I don't think your example cards are showing it off very well. Your Emerald Sprite, though it might be cool for a basic card, doesn't show off the basic idea of the class at all, the Mountain Sprite, I don't think should have been named so similarly to the Emerald Sprite btw, seems like a card that only works while quite far in the lead due to requiring multiple minions to work, if they have so much as a holy smite it dies, which means the card either falls flat or is extremely unfun to play against, because if you're behind and have no removal, the Mountain Sprite will just continuously give everything you have taunt while being immortal itself. And finally, your last card is the only card showing any synergy with your hero power, yet it's not a damaging card. I really think you should have shown at least one spell that actually did damage somewhere in the example cards, because that's kind of the thing that defines your class. Also, Solace seems like a bit of a win more card. You have to have a pretty big board of damaged minions and then you have to hero power and likely azure drake before playing it to heal for something like 6 or 7. If you have no board, like what a class based around spell damage would habve a lot of the time, it's completely worthless.

Okay, so I defiantly get a common theme from both of these replies, and I'm wondering if its simply because of the cards I picked, or I just didn't do a good enough job at explaining my class. It's also funny you would say that "it isn't that exiting", as I thought the best way to get picked was to try making a class that looked like it could fit right into the current 9. Which is why the Hero Power in particular is so simple, I thought "this was a Hero Power that could actually exist, as it doesn't have any crazy effects like I know everyone else would be doing." Yes, Titan as a class is a really cool and well made concept, but I could never see Blizzard actually making a class with that Hero Power. It would be, in their words, "To complicated for new players". Even the past winners of this competition had really simple Hero Powers, so I thought I'd follow their lead.

To go a bit on the defensive here, something both of you take notice of is the idea of guaranteed spell damage. Honestly, while I was aware of the risks that go with that, the part of the Hero Power *I* always focused on was the guaranteed Taunt each turn. Which for me is what centralized the class, and also why I picked Emerald Sprite. It's hard to hit, your Hero is hard to hit, (and also Elusive as an effect was planned to show up a number of times, so in that way it does have class identity) but that's how I always thought when looking at the class. But... yeah, now you pointed it out I realise how much more of an issue Spell Damage probably is to most other people. (Maybe it was simply the issue of wording it so that Spell Damage came first...) Also you both complain about Mountain Sprite being weak. Which is something I was aware of from the beginning, but I thought, "flavor over power, there is nothing wrong with that." Well, I guess I was wrong on that one too. (Similar to the argument about Solace being "win more". Yes it is, as are a lot of current cards. I didn't think that would be as much of an issue as it apparently is.)

However there is one particular line I want to talk about:

I really think you should have shown at least one spell that actually did damage somewhere in the example cards, because that's kind of the thing that defines your class

Again, probably just a case of "I know more about what I was planning" but: No. It wasn't. It was never like that. Mostly because, yes, Spell Power each turn could get quite out of control, so the idea was to use Spell power indirectly. Also a lot of the spells that benifit the most from Spell Power already exist. (Mostly in mage)

There were defiantly going to be damaging spells, but I wasn't actually allowed to show them. As per the rules originally given, no cards that produce other cards were to be shown, and very common mechanic I had planned was cards that generate spells, and that would be where most of the damage came from. Trust me, had I been allowed I would have showed them.

Thanks for the replies anyway. Hopefully I can do better next time Class creation comes around.

Last edited by Mentor_X on Jan 17, 2017

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#921 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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@Broeck1 Thanks for the feedback on my class! I've received feedback on the current form of the heropower elsewhere too. It was originally just summon a 0/3, but I felt that it would be too weak without any buff cards if got from Finley or in arena and in decks would require you to run multple buff cards for it to not be too weak. The change was near the end of the contest so it might not be perfect.

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#922 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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I've noticed that a bunch of people have evaluated their favourite classes, and while I wasn't expecting mine to appear on them, it has made me aware that I need to up my game a little. Can I get some advice on what my class is lacking in comparison to the others?

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#924 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Quote from ASifyouwoulD >>

I won't lie, the fact my submission is not only in last place overall (I think) but has precisely zero votes is kinda irritating. Looking forward to seeing who does get through.

I like the idea you class is offering but I think the cards you showed didn't really interact with your hero power. ( I also don't have long so this won't be super indepth.) For example it would of been cool if there was a minion that had "Whenever this minion is reduced in stats deal 2 damage to a random enemy."

I also don't really think you should have shown Warm Comfort as I don't think it really showed what your class was about or maybe you shhould've changed it to "Any minion that had it's stats reduced restore it to it's normal stats."(maybe change the wording on that one.) Reaper's Greatsword is a interesting card and I think pretty good as is. Then there's Grim Caster which although undead is just corruption slapped on a big body and I also feel you could of used sacrifice in order to give it another more interesting effect maybe something along the lines of "Sacrifice (2): Give all enemy minions -1/-1." or something like that. (Also do remember that cards like N'zoth didn't exist when Hearthstone came out so your example involving Grim Caster would of made it not very good until the Old Gods and even then it's just easier to just kill the minion then waste a corruption and 7 mana to do that.)

Those are my thoughts anyway as the idea is cool but your cards didn't really show what new things you're trying to bring to the table and as such didn't attract people enough.

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#926 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Quote from ASifyouwoulD >>

I won't lie, the fact my submission is not only in last place overall (I think) but has precisely zero votes is kinda irritating. Looking forward to seeing who does get through.

My 2 cents: I'm not a fan of hero powers generating token spells, unless it really makes sense for the concept. If the token challenge didn't exist, your hero power wouldn't likely generate a token. I'm also not really a fan of adding an Undead tag, as it would be weird to suddenly add that tag to dozens of existing undead minions, nor does it feel right that only your class would interact with the undead tag. I really like that Hearthstone didn't take WC3 as its basis, and tag all of the minions with Elf, Orc, Human, Tauren or even Alliance, Horde, Scourge, etc. Beyond that, nothing felt really "Necromancer-y" about the class, it just looks like another minion buffing class, a design space which is already kind of filled by Paladin. There were so many minion buffing classes submitted, that they all kind of blend together after you read a few. Your class concept might be really cool, but it didn't stand out in this stage. Take a look at RedneckBudha's submission, it has similar mechanics but feels more polished.

Quote from maxlot >>

I've noticed that a bunch of people have evaluated their favourite classes, and while I wasn't expecting mine to appear on them, it has made me aware that I need to up my game a little. Can I get some advice on what my class is lacking in comparison to the others?

The Promote mechanic being based on rarity is a cool idea. I like the fact that it values commons and basics because they can receive more promotions than higher rarity cards. Still, the effects of promotion, getting +1/+1 or reducing cost, didn't feel very exciting. Beyond that, the rarity on hearthstone cards isn't often an indication of their power. Flamestrike is one of the most powerful cards in the game and it's Basic. Millhouse Manastorm is one of the worst cards in the game and it's legendary. Sometimes rarity doesn't indicate card value, but rather reflects the fact that the designers don't want people to receive a given card very often. If Millhouse was nerfed to a Common, still no one would play it, and it'd become frustrating to find in pack after pack. Essentially, I think for your mechanic to work, you'd have to re-evaluate the rarities of lots of cards.

EDIT: what I do like about using rarity as a mechanic is that it helps newer players who lack a large collection of epics and legendaries. I think the idea has some promise, and would like it to be used on a few cards, but not the identiy of an entire class. Maybe the identity of an entire deck? "If your deck contains no legendaries then XYZ" or "If your deck has only commons and basic cards then XYZ" Could be a neat mechanic to help budget decks be a bit better.

Last edited by ZardozSpeaks on Jan 17, 2017

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#927 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Quote from ASifyouwoulD >>

I won't lie, the fact my submission is not only in last place overall (I think) but has precisely zero votes is kinda irritating. Looking forward to seeing who does get through.

Don't worry about it, you get used to the feeling of failure.

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My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
#928 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Quote from ZardozSpeaks >>

Quote from ASifyouwoulD >>

I won't lie, the fact my submission is not only in last place overall (I think) but has precisely zero votes is kinda irritating. Looking forward to seeing who does get through.

My 2 cents: I'm not a fan of hero powers generating token spells, unless it really makes sense for the concept. If the token challenge didn't exist, your hero power wouldn't likely generate a token. I'm also not really a fan of adding an Undead tag, as it would be weird to suddenly add that tag to dozens of existing undead minions, nor does it feel right that only your class would interact with the undead tag. I really like that Hearthstone didn't take WC3 as its basis, and tag all of the minions with Elf, Orc, Human, Tauren or even Alliance, Horde, Scourge, etc. Beyond that, nothing felt really "Necromancer-y" about the class, it just looks like another minion buffing class, a design space which is already kind of filled by Paladin. There were so many minion buffing classes submitted, that they all kind of blend together after you read a few. Your class concept might be really cool, but it didn't stand out in this stage. Take a look at RedneckBudha's submission, it has similar mechanics but feels more polished.

Quote from maxlot >>

I've noticed that a bunch of people have evaluated their favourite classes, and while I wasn't expecting mine to appear on them, it has made me aware that I need to up my game a little. Can I get some advice on what my class is lacking in comparison to the others?

The Promote mechanic being based on rarity is a cool idea. I like the fact that it values commons and basics because they can receive more promotions than higher rarity cards. Still, the effects of promotion, getting +1/+1 or reducing cost, didn't feel very exciting. Beyond that, the rarity on hearthstone cards isn't often an indication of their power. Flamestrike is one of the most powerful cards in the game and it's Basic. Millhouse Manastorm is one of the worst cards in the game and it's legendary. Sometimes rarity doesn't indicate card value, but rather reflects the fact that the designers don't want people to receive a given card very often. If Millhouse was nerfed to a Common, still no one would play it, and it'd become frustrating to find in pack after pack. Essentially, I think for your mechanic to work, you'd have to re-evaluate the rarities of lots of cards.

EDIT: what I do like about using rarity as a mechanic is that it helps newer players who lack a large collection of epics and legendaries. I think the idea has some promise, and would like it to be used on a few cards, but not the identiy of an entire class. Maybe the identity of an entire deck? "If your deck contains no legendaries then XYZ" or "If your deck has only commons and basic cards then XYZ" Could be a neat mechanic to help budget decks be a bit better.

...I understand that rarity isn't a scale of power, that part was pretty unnecessary. The actual point of the class is to manipulate it as a form of second tribe, like how murloc or beast works. Thanks to your reply I realise that the 3 example cards don't show it off as much as I had hoped, because beyond the rarity mechanic itself, promote is boring. If I can actually show off why the rarity change is important to the class correctly, I think it might display the class better. And of course, you don't have to worry about it being the entire class. Although it IS a big part of it, and the core theme, like armor to warrior, healing to priests and comboing to rogue, they aren't going to be the whole thing. I think as time goes by and more cards are shown that interact with rarity in unique ways go by, as well as core cards that interact with other themes like leadership and political power, the implications and uses of the effect will be more clear, and the overall class will be fleshed out.

So, thank you for your response.

Last edited by maxlot on Jan 17, 2017

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#930 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Would someone bother giving me a review of my Trickster class? Don't have the exact link to it, but it's somewhere on the bottom of page 5 in the submission topic. I'd like to hear what I could've done better and if it seems interesting enough.

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#931 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Quote from Mokkel >>

Would someone bother giving me a review of my Trickster class? Don't have the exact link to it, but it's somewhere on the bottom of page 5 in the submission topic. I'd like to hear what I could've done better and if it seems interesting enough.

The biggest problem with your entry is that the hero power is way too weak. 2 mana to do 3 damage to the enemy hero at an indeterminate time in the future is really bad. That's only 1 more damage than Steady Shot, which does the damage immediately. When you use your hero power, you aren't even guaranteed that the damage will be dealt this game. For something so slow, 5 damage might be balanced, or even more than that. I mean, Iron Juggernaut dealt 10 damage later in the game, and no one used it because the effect is too slow and usually didn't go off before the game ended.

Last edited by nurgling13 on Jan 17, 2017

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#932 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Quote from ASifyouwoulD >>

I won't lie, the fact my submission is not only in last place overall (I think) but has precisely zero votes is kinda irritating. Looking forward to seeing who does get through.

Don't worry there are more competitions to enter, and not everyone is great at first .If it's any consolation my post in the adventure creation got 0 upvotes back when that was and was posted up a lot sooner than your submission was. Also you can continue to work on your class and just post it as a separate entity here in the forum or even be prepared for the next time this competition is ran, if there is a next time. That may be what I end up doing as 7 votes isn't likely enough to make the cut. .-.

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#933 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Final data pull is in 3 minutes. There are 92 valid entries, it turns out. That means 50 will move on to phase II by default.

Hopefully I shouldn't be more than 5 minutes or so after final data pull before the Phase II topics are up. =)

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#934 Jan 17, 2017 (Gadgetzan)
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Phase II is now up! ^_^

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