Not true! I (and others) have been complaining about the lack of armor removal tech as control warrior shuts down every type of OTK deck through stacking armor. Funny thing is, we always got negative responses from people in the community (specifically control warriors), saying that it was unfair to target one sepcific class/archetype with a tech card mostly because they hate OTK decks.
I don't know, the reason I usually see folks having a negative reaction to a lot of proposed anti-Armor tech is because most of it is way overdone. Like, think of if people proposed a neutral 3-cost 3/3 minion with "Battlecry: Destroy all enemy Secrets, and deal 5 damage to the enemy hero for each one destroyed". That's way too crazy hard a counter, and that's how too many people propose anti-Armor tech.
I don't know, the reason I usually see folks having a negative reaction to a lot of proposed anti-Armor tech is because most of it is way overdone. Like, think of if people proposed a neutral 3-cost 3/3 minion with "Battlecry: Destroy all enemy Secrets, and deal 5 damage to the enemy hero for each one destroyed". That's way too crazy hard a counter, and that's how too many people propose anti-Armor tech.
That's interesting, as I've had many good discussions with reasonable posters about a "destroy all armor" effect attached to a minion with undesirable stats as the effect is even more useful now with new druid armor gain popularity and Kazakus. More than I see overwhelming counter cards, I see underwhelming ones like "this minion ignores armor" or "remove 5 armor". What OTK decks want is something that removes ALL armor since just another 5 damage isn't worth it. You can make the card next to useless in every other matchup as long as it has that effect attached.
I don't know, the reason I usually see folks having a negative reaction to a lot of proposed anti-Armor tech is because most of it is way overdone. Like, think of if people proposed a neutral 3-cost 3/3 minion with "Battlecry: Destroy all enemy Secrets, and deal 5 damage to the enemy hero for each one destroyed". That's way too crazy hard a counter, and that's how too many people propose anti-Armor tech.
That's interesting, as I've had many good discussions with reasonable posters about a "destroy all armor" effect attached to a minion with undesirable stats as the effect is even more useful now with new druid armor gain popularity and Kazakus. More than I see overwhelming counter cards, I see underwhelming ones like "this minion ignores armor" or "remove 5 armor". What OTK decks want is something that removes ALL armor since just another 5 damage isn't worth it. You can make the card next to useless in every other matchup as long as it has that effect attached.
Removing 20 or more armor in one fell swoop would be way too strong. Imagine a spell that did 20 (or more) face damage with no combos and may even put a body on the board. That's basically what you are proposing. Cards that counter armor can be good but not quite that strong.
xD u can have a giggle but I can argue that Majordomo Executus was a usable tech card vs Control Warrior in freeze / reno mage. You would either give it to them when they play Sylvanas and remove all their armor with the transformation or become Rag, survive with ice secrets and melt 8 armor a turn and completely flip the tables - they have to play into your removal now while you can sit back and wait.
I don't know, the reason I usually see folks having a negative reaction to a lot of proposed anti-Armor tech is because most of it is way overdone. Like, think of if people proposed a neutral 3-cost 3/3 minion with "Battlecry: Destroy all enemy Secrets, and deal 5 damage to the enemy hero for each one destroyed". That's way too crazy hard a counter, and that's how too many people propose anti-Armor tech.
That's interesting, as I've had many good discussions with reasonable posters about a "destroy all armor" effect attached to a minion with undesirable stats as the effect is even more useful now with new druid armor gain popularity and Kazakus. More than I see overwhelming counter cards, I see underwhelming ones like "this minion ignores armor" or "remove 5 armor". What OTK decks want is something that removes ALL armor since just another 5 damage isn't worth it. You can make the card next to useless in every other matchup as long as it has that effect attached.
"Destroy all armor" is ridiculously powerful. That's exactly the kind of way too crazy hard a counter that I was talking about.
"Destroy all armor" is ridiculously powerful. That's exactly the kind of way too crazy hard a counter that I was talking about.
And I would argue that there's absolutely no point in running an armor removal tech card unless it removes all the armor as it is a complete liability in every other matchup and only helpful in one. OTK decks don't care about stats on the minion or the cost. They don't even care about "remove 10 armor" as the majority of the time, CW has 20-25 armor on them by the time they OTK. My point is there's only one text that would be an actual tech card that they would use, which is remove all armor, as any other tech effect would be useless.
And to counter what was said above, Sacrificial Pact does up to 15 damage against Jaraxxus, no combos, for 0 mana. Putting that card into your deck lets you counter the win condition of one and only one archetype (Renolock or Handlock) while putting an expensive armor tech card that is as awfully stat'd/costed as possible would let you counter the win condition of one and only one archetype (Control Warrior). It would also force control warriors to think about when they would armor up and use their other armor cards (like a priest has to do with Flash Heal, dodging Alex) instead of just mindlessly using them whenever mana allows.
"Destroy all armor" is ridiculously powerful. That's exactly the kind of way too crazy hard a counter that I was talking about.
And I would argue that there's absolutely no point in running an armor removal tech card unless it removes all the armor as it is a complete liability in every other matchup and only helpful in one. OTK decks don't care about stats on the minion or the cost. They don't even care about "remove 10 armor" as the majority of the time, CW has 20-25 armor on them by the time they OTK. My point is there's only one text that would be an actual tech card that they would use, which is remove all armor, as any other tech effect would be useless.
Well, first, I don't agree that that's true. My go-to example has always been a card that "does double damage to characters with Armor or Taunt". It's possible and even easy to make anti-Armor tech more broadly usable.
Second, and I'm sure you've probably heard this before if you've had discussions about this before because I'm going to say it anyway, even if that were true, it's fine and arguably even necessary for a deck or archetype to have hard checks and counters. That's what keeps things from getting too out of hand. The metagame would be terrible if OTK decks had no reliably viable checks or counters. That no deck can possible have a perfect answer to absolutely everything is good for variety.
Second, and I'm sure you've probably heard this before if you've had discussions about this before because I'm going to say it anyway, even if that were true, it's fine and arguably even necessary for a deck or archetype to have hard checks and counters. That's what keeps things from getting too out of hand. The metagame would be terrible if OTK decks had no reliably viable checks or counters. That no deck can possible have a perfect answer to absolutely everything is good for variety.
And that's why I posted this on a thread about Jade Golem counters. Control players will just need to suck it up and realize that a counter card will not be printed just like OTK players have had to suck it up about control warrior armor gain.
I personally think a fully remove armor card is a bit too crazy but only slightly. A card that reads "Battlecry: If you used your hero power this turn set your opponents health to 25 and armor to 0" would be awesome. It could even have reasonable stats like 5 mana 5/5. The hero power part is so you can play it when you don't want the effect. The problem with removing all armor is that if the warrior is behind and finally starts to stabilize you could set them back to like 3 health and kill them straight away that's rather dumb. This way it gives OTK decks an option to prevent the CW from going above full health but it still gives the warrior the chance to stabilize with armor while almost dead.
My personal thoughts is that counters should be really really good vs decks but not make you instantly win vs them. EG, mind control tech vs zoo, eater of secrets vs secret hunter and so on. Really good but don't counter hard enough to push the deck out of the meta even when they get used a lot.
I do think I went a bit soft on my jade counter but there is a very fine line between giving a deck that's weak vs an archetype a chance of winning and making a counter so strong it kicks a deck or archetype out of the meta completely. I am with Asylum that decks should be weak vs some other decks but a card that increases your winrate in a bad matchup from like 25% to 35% I think is fine at the cost of 1 or 2% winrate vs other decks. That's what I was aiming for with my card.
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you say that jade killed control, or a whole archetype as you put it, then why is renolock good and also renopriest, and why does jade druid suck completely. this card counters bad decks, yeah sure jade druid pops up on low ladder all the time, but almost nobody gets far in legend if they can even get there with jade druid. the card also has troubles with the weird way hearthstone mechanics work meaning this card does not, but if it did it would be a cool tech card, that would never see play.
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Just fill your deck with one drops, that is creative deck design, right?
you say that jade killed control, or a whole archetype as you put it, then why is renolock good and also renopriest, and why does jade druid suck completely. this card counters bad decks, yeah sure jade druid pops up on low ladder all the time, but almost nobody gets far in legend if they can even get there with jade druid. the card also has troubles with the weird way hearthstone mechanics work meaning this card does not, but if it did it would be a cool tech card, that would never see play.
It killed the really grindy control decks who's win condition was to just deal with all your opponents threats until they had nothing left then winning off the back of fatigue, Elise, or a few big legendary's. Your typical control warrior is the best example and that deck is now gone along with similar priest versions. Now control decks need to ether have crazy win condition like N'zoth or warlocks 20 damage burst. Reno priest is more dragon than control unless there's a version I haven't seen but that just shows how lacking the deck is. Thinking about it my card wouldn't do enough to bring back those decks but it's the idea behind it I guess. Jade druid isn't the greatest deck and is also a very unfun with how linear it is. Losing fun decks that have been around since the game was made for jade druid sucks. Normal jade is fine even with it having an extremely high winrate vs control because control can sometimes still win, where as controls winrate vs jade druid is almost literally 0%.
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Currently working on the Tinker! K&C and WW / JUG and KotFT / Classic / Basic / Introduction
My Previous Classes: Apothecary (unfinished) / Chronomancer / Death Knight (old)
My Previous Expansions: Hallow's End
Currently working on the Tinker! K&C and WW / JUG and KotFT / Classic / Basic / Introduction
My Previous Classes: Apothecary (unfinished) / Chronomancer / Death Knight (old)
My Previous Expansions: Hallow's End
I personally think a fully remove armor card is a bit too crazy but only slightly. A card that reads "Battlecry: If you used your hero power this turn set your opponents health to 25 and armor to 0" would be awesome. It could even have reasonable stats like 5 mana 5/5. The hero power part is so you can play it when you don't want the effect. The problem with removing all armor is that if the warrior is behind and finally starts to stabilize you could set them back to like 3 health and kill them straight away that's rather dumb. This way it gives OTK decks an option to prevent the CW from going above full health but it still gives the warrior the chance to stabilize with armor while almost dead.
My personal thoughts is that counters should be really really good vs decks but not make you instantly win vs them. EG, mind control tech vs zoo, eater of secrets vs secret hunter and so on. Really good but don't counter hard enough to push the deck out of the meta even when they get used a lot.
I do think I went a bit soft on my jade counter but there is a very fine line between giving a deck that's weak vs an archetype a chance of winning and making a counter so strong it kicks a deck or archetype out of the meta completely. I am with Asylum that decks should be weak vs some other decks but a card that increases your winrate in a bad matchup from like 25% to 35% I think is fine at the cost of 1 or 2% winrate vs other decks. That's what I was aiming for with my card.
Check out my Custom Classes (Scribe, Alchemist, and Battlemage)!
you say that jade killed control, or a whole archetype as you put it, then why is renolock good and also renopriest, and why does jade druid suck completely. this card counters bad decks, yeah sure jade druid pops up on low ladder all the time, but almost nobody gets far in legend if they can even get there with jade druid. the card also has troubles with the weird way hearthstone mechanics work meaning this card does not, but if it did it would be a cool tech card, that would never see play.
Just fill your deck with one drops, that is creative deck design, right?
Check out my Custom Classes (Scribe, Alchemist, and Battlemage)!
Priest
Penance
Spell
Cost - 4
Destroy all minions that have equal attack and health.
Warrior
Ogthugh
Minion
Cost - 5
Atk/health = 2/2
Text - At the end of your turn destroy a random vanilla minion and add that minion's attack and toughness to this.
Galavant Animation