If I may, I don't mean to pile on or anything, but I think I can explain a lot of folks' distaste for the token-heaviness of the Pokemon Trainer class.
See, in our weekly competitions, competitors often try to use Ysera-like effects to enter tons of cards instead of just one, and this turns off a lot of those folks more into the competitions because it's a way of jamming more content into your entry than everybody else is. It becomes a question of quantity over quality, and it works because entering six cards means voters are more likely to find something from your card that they like, and they're thus also more willing to forgive the card's flaws.
For the earlier stages of this competition especially, getting to use a huge amount of tokens as an excuse to show off more content was a marked advantage. While other folks had 3 example cards to convince folks their class was cool, you got those plus six more tokens. Not that it's necessarily true or not that your success can be attributed to that (or any other single factor) specifically, but I hope you can understand why a lot of folks might consider that aspect of it "unfair".
At this stage of the competition, though, I think that while the token-heaviness of the class might have been an advantage at first, it may actually work against you this time around just because your classes's whole set is now actually very difficult to get all the way through. While other classes now have had more than enough cards to fully flesh out and show off their concepts, you're has grown exponentially into what may come across as excessiveness. Only time will tell if any of this is true or not, but understand that accusations of token abuse are coming specifically from the perspective of experiences with the weekly competitions and that quantity-versus-quality question.
If I may, I think I can explain a lot of folks' distaste for the token-heaviness of the Pokemon Trainer class.
See, in our weekly competitions, competitors often try to use Ysera-like effects to enter tons of cards instead of just one, and this turns a lot of those more into the competitions off because it's a way of jamming more content into your entry than everybody else is. It becomes a question of quantity over quality, and it works because entering six cards means voters are more likely to find something from your card that they like, and they're thus also more willing to forgive the card's flaws.
I think this sentiment is actually misplaced. I am pretty sure making tokens in the competitions actually turns people off from the cards. They don't want to read them all, especially in the Final Poll, where they would have to scroll down for it. I think this is evidenced by the fact that cards with unique tokens almost never win. People seem to think the opposite is going on though, for some reason. Which doesn't make sense because you see lots of people railing against tokens, and zero people saying they like them.
And I think the same effect is happening here. The pokemon trainer has a crazy number of tokens. Personally, it is too much work to wade through all that. There's like 3 times as many cards to look at as any of the other classes, so how can I tell if it's balanced? I'd rather just vote for one of the other entries than read all those cards and decide how balanced they are.
I don't think the tokens are the main problem with the Pokemon trainer class. The main problem is that, while interesting, it is not a class made to fit into hearthstone. There is zero reason to use neutral cards and if any of the Pokemon came out of a shredder for example the evolve mechanic would not work with other hero powers with its current wording.
It goes back to something I said a while ago which is the cards can be as balanced as you like but the class is not balanced with the rest of the game.
You have simply created your own Pokemon subgame within hearthstone rather than a class which could work for a tavern brawl but not the main game.
Just my opinion and what do I know my entry sucked but take from it what you will.
Well, I'm back after 3 days of Undertale. What a game. Even started dabbling in Undertale design, but then I realized I suck at it and I should probably finish the giant contest that has been the main focus of my life for the past month anyway.
These are the two cards that I've come up with over those few days. They're not uber-exciting, but I think they both fit well into Bard. But I am having major problems with the non-effect stuff.
The art for this card has been the most ridiculously frustrating thing I've come across in the 3-ish years I've been doing art searches (except for maybe Gong art, which is so impossible I'm switching it to a bell). For some reason, pictures of Bards with decent quality trumpets or trombones do not seem to exist beyond the one I'm using for Regal Trumpeteer, which is not really even a Bard. The one in this picture had no backround, so I had to put a crappy one in myself. Then there's the problem that this picture absolutely does not fit into the card in any good way...
So, if anyone has a suggestion for a better picture or better positioning for the art, please, help me ;_;
(EDIT: Looking back on it, the wording is also bugging me, so any tips on that would be cool too.)
So I said that I wanted a card with "Whenever you activate a Melody, do something", and I also said I wanted a Pirate. And when I said I wanted a Pirate, I knew for the sake of Bard that it had to have synergy with Ship's Cannon, because that card is just ridiculously cool and fits with token pirate. So this card basically checks off all three of those boxes.
The problem is, I don't know what to name either of them. The base card (the 2/3) is probably going to be in the form of [pirate adjective] + [musician/bard synonym]. Originally, it was called "Hightide Fiddler" but then I realized that my other Pirate card is called Freebooter's Fiddle... so it seemed repetitive.
As for the token... no clue where i'm going to go with it.
So yeah, help with art/names/balance is welcomed...
That's a tough one. I have two themes in mind. Firstly, you could try a bar/rum/music theme and name the token Drunken Pirate, Dancing Pirate, Cheerful Pirate or something like that, and then the girl is sort of like a barkeeper responsible for keeping morale up.
Or you can go in a different direction and the woman is a recruiter, and the token is obviously some swabbie/recruit/whatever. If the main card female, you can have some slightly... more entertaining undertone in both cases. And for a 1/1 pirate token in general, I would use something along the lines of http://orig15.deviantart.net/d97e/f/2010/183/c/c/pirate_by_hunqwert.jpg
instead of a high-ranking pirate with fancy clothes.
For arena I'd pick Hope Feeder, Bathe in Fear, Consopio, Lake Lurker, perhaps Voice of Lullabys (Lullabies?), Spectre, Manmade Terror, mmmmmmmaybe Ghost in the Machine and I don't really know what else highly. All your cards seem highly specialized and tailored for constructed, and a lot of them are so anti-tempo it hurts. Not to mention the fact that I would not even pick Incubus because even the warrior hero power is more useful than shuffling mediocre RANDOM stuff into your opponent's deck.
There's still one thing I don't understand: is Manifest an ongoing effect on minions, or is it one-time only? For example Manmade Terror: does it shuffle crap in my deck at the start of each turn or only the exact turn after it is played? Also, somewhat related to this, if a minion had a text like Manifest: Deal 2 damage to a random enemy, would it occur tied to the minion or independently, even after said minion is removed?
Also a place where all cards are visible, without commentaries, and around 300 pixels wide would be welcome, currently it is fairly hard to see them all together.
His theme, playstyle? Cancer aggro/mill. Play cheap aggro minions (and that Deathlord thing and maybe actual Deathlord in Wild to stall), then start using your hero power to fill their deck with junk then force them to draw all the nightmares. Use Ghost or Solitude to get rid of big taunts, and sometimes tech in Fade into Dream (it shouldn't be necessary with so many 2 mana removal options, though). Losing Courage is a really nice finisher, and with all the draw you are getting (4 mana draw 3 is amazing, especially if your opponent draws, too), you can easily fish for it.
And when it comes to the Bard, I sadly don't have any name suggestions. I'd suggest something playing on the Sirens, such as High Seas Syren (Which is funny because it is a flower) but that's about the best I can manage. She looks like a powerful card nonetheless, but once again I have to express the danger of promoting Melody too much. Nobody likes a game with no action, but I feel that you are more than aware of that.
Flourish looks extremely underpowered and could probably do with a bit more Ohmpfconsidering cards such as Power of the Wild, which buffs existing minions AND has the option to summon an on curve beast.
Oh my god, we completely missed that power of the wild comparison.
Huh. That's embarrassing.
I always wanted to put "Draw a card" onto it, because that really fits the feel of the card, but I'm worried Bard has too much card draw between Peace and Harmony / Heavy Metal / Angelcaller / Song of Celebration...
Maybe it could just go down to 1 mana, but I feel like that's too crazy.
In appreciation for that response, let me talk about Incubus. I also know that feeling of wanting an overview of your class as a whole, so...
To be honest, I hadn't been looking at your class to closely, as we seemed to always end up on separate pages for some reason. But now that I've read through the whole thing all at once... wow, I actually really like it.
I think you did a really good job of getting across the flavor of fear and terror. This class feels like what I call an authority - if you happen to play League, a good example of an authority is someone like Tahm Kench. I really like characters that, rather than being your average person, feel like they are above everyone else, in terms of knowledge, experience, and power. When I envision playing this class, the spells make you feel like you are toying with your opponent, holding absolute dominance over them as their minions crumble to 1 and 0 attack.
Obviously, for balance sake, it doesn't actually play out like that, it's a much more evenly matched game. But still, the cards feel really nice, and the themes of attack reduction, deck attacks, and only controlling one minion came out very well.
Speaking of balance... honestly, I can't help you much there. Surprisingly, one of the things I've learned about design from this competition is that balance is the least important steps in design - flavor, art, mechanics and nuance are far more important. By now, my balancing process is mostly my own instinct plus asking someone "does this seem op", so it's hard for me to give feedback on yours. I think that there were more generally weak cards than generally strong cards, but don't take that as a thorough review.
Some nitpicky things that I did notice though: Since there's no card that interacts with your Phobia: something cards yet, I would rather change the names to the actual phobias, like Arachnophobia, Pyrophobia, etc. It meshes more with the names of your other cards, which very artistic and poetic, whereas the colon makes it seem technical and complicated.
Also, I have to say that I don't like Servitor, seeing as how this class only has bedbug as it's deathrattle, and I don't think class legendaries should have their performance based on how your opponent is doing.
Back to bigger things, maybe you can enlighten me, but what's this class's win condition? Is it to snowball your one-minion-at-a-time effects for big damage, or is it fatigue, or what? This class is a really strong control class, so maybe it doesn't need one, but I think it's good to at least give some hint on how to win the game.
Also, keep making more cards that allow for aggressive gameplay, like Manmade Terror. While making a class control-based is fine, making it so that it only has one playstyle isn't... a lesson I learned when I made Lich for the previous CCC.
Lastly, two cards that really seemed "solid" to me are Bathe in Fear, Into Nightmare, and Glimpse the Reaper.
@DKPaladinMDL Hm... Bandmaster Pirate or Maestro Pirate or Bard Pirate for the girl. Maybe Dancing Pirate or Singing Pirate (Looks like he is talking/singing on the pic) Good luck, I really liked your submissions :D
The problem is, I don't know what to name either of them. The base card (the 2/3) is probably going to be in the form of [pirate adjective] + [musician/bard synonym]. Originally, it was called "Hightide Fiddler" but then I realized that my other Pirate card is called Freebooter's Fiddle... so it seemed repetitive.
Corsair Choir Leader or Corsaid Chorus Leader, and then the tokens could be called Corsair Choir/Chorus Members or something.
Here are some early draft ideas that I've got going on. Feel free to comment or not, it's whatever. =) More importantly, I'm kind of curious what y'all would like to see from the class. I'm trying to stick with "real-world" conspiracy theories and such, so I don't want to venture too far into blatantly sci-fi territory, but is there anything you think the Agent class should include? In addition to the below, stuff I've thought about including... "Swamp Gas", Stonehenge, Atlantis, Alient implants, Anunnaki (will probably be part of LoE), the Philadelphia Experiment or Montauk project, really thinking about what to do with Mothman, maybe something with hoaxes specifically like the moon landing, Bermuda Triangle, Project Bluebook...
Here are some early draft ideas that I've got going on. Feel free to comment or not, it's whatever. =) More importantly, I'm kind of curious what y'all would like to see from the class. I'm trying to stick with "real-world" conspiracy theories and such, so I don't want to venture too far into blatantly sci-fi territory, but is there anything you think the Agent class should include? In addition to the below, stuff I've thought about including... "Swamp Gas", Stonehenge, Atlantis, Alient implants, Anunnaki (will probably be part of LoE), the Philadelphia Experiment or Montauk project, really thinking about what to do with Mothman, maybe something with hoaxes specifically like the moon landing, Bermuda Triangle, Project Bluebook...
Confiscate - This will really hurt weapon classes, and it's objectively a better Tech card than Flare, since you get to use the weapon itself and "draw a card". I suggest it to cost 2 mana - a File is technically still a card so it can be used to combo.
Tractor Beam - Seems rather weak if you fail the check. Not really sure about how to balance this card without making it too similar to others tho.
Deep Web Hacker - Is good, I like it.
Magic Bullet - Feels quite weak, the effect that it comes with won't usually be relevant. Your secrets are already a source of direct damage, might want to buff it up to deal 6 damage. (Weaker Fireball, but eh, you're not a mage.)
Shrouded Conspirator - I assume it doesn't trigger the damage? Feels alright haha.
Satellite - I still feel that it won't really do much haha, believe I explained my thoughts about it earlier! Needs a buff at least.
Out-of-Place Artifact is a cliché that has been used a lot in the competition ever since Discover was implemented, and the Satellite is just a re-iteration of your own competition winning card, so I guess it wouldn't be popular and "new" in any way (also it doesn't quite fit the agent theme imo.)
The only other card I have a problem with is Tractor Beam, as it is, honestly, quite weak. It basically removes early drops from your opponent's deck, which is OK in the mid game but absolutely detrimental to you in the late game as you improve their deck quality dramatically. By turn 7, assuming you've used up all charges by then (Light's Justice value), you've covered up about 2 or 3 of their low drops, which increases the chance of them having Dr. Boom (or other big fat minions) in their hand by quite a lot. Face hunters are more likely to draw spells. Warriors get all their win conditions more reliably. Paladins... well that's none of your business. And even if the effect were positive (so it covered up theirs if it costs more, not less), it would still be marginal as the agent has so much card draw he's likely to uncover everything pretty quickly. Only potentially strong against minion-based combo decks, which aren't generally competitive nowadays. (stuff like mill rogue)
I like the rest, though. Thematically fitting, unique and balanced designs. And oh dear god an actually good card based on MC. A rare sight indeed.
I'm not sure if this is the right place but the complaint about the pokemon popularity got me thinking..
Does anyone think that allowing a moderator of the Fan Creation forum be part of this competition is unprofessional and done in really poor taste? I have nothing against anyone here and most ideas have been great but it just runs along the lines of shady and feels like he has a potential bias/advantage compared to the unknown people that created decks. He also has knowledge before hand of the rules/requirements for the competition and who knows what other advantages mod privleges bring to a competition like this. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way but its really hard for me to enjoy competitions when I see something like this happen.
I don't think asylum has any sort of advantage, since the competition is entirely based upon votes. He couldn't have done anything that would have manipulated the votes and there isn't any advantage that he has over the rest of us. I knew the rules ahead of time as well, since the rules and times for every single phase were stated both in the very beginning and throughout the competition.
There isn't anything he could've done..? Also, he isn't the type of person to do anything like that anyway.
If I may, I don't mean to pile on or anything, but I think I can explain a lot of folks' distaste for the token-heaviness of the Pokemon Trainer class.
See, in our weekly competitions, competitors often try to use Ysera-like effects to enter tons of cards instead of just one, and this turns off a lot of those folks more into the competitions because it's a way of jamming more content into your entry than everybody else is. It becomes a question of quantity over quality, and it works because entering six cards means voters are more likely to find something from your card that they like, and they're thus also more willing to forgive the card's flaws.
For the earlier stages of this competition especially, getting to use a huge amount of tokens as an excuse to show off more content was a marked advantage. While other folks had 3 example cards to convince folks their class was cool, you got those plus six more tokens. Not that it's necessarily true or not that your success can be attributed to that (or any other single factor) specifically, but I hope you can understand why a lot of folks might consider that aspect of it "unfair".
At this stage of the competition, though, I think that while the token-heaviness of the class might have been an advantage at first, it may actually work against you this time around just because your classes's whole set is now actually very difficult to get all the way through. While other classes now have had more than enough cards to fully flesh out and show off their concepts, you're has grown exponentially into what may come across as excessiveness. Only time will tell if any of this is true or not, but understand that accusations of token abuse are coming specifically from the perspective of experiences with the weekly competitions and that quantity-versus-quality question.
Come Play Make the Keyword!!!
Check out my Worgen Class in the Class Competition
I don't think the tokens are the main problem with the Pokemon trainer class. The main problem is that, while interesting, it is not a class made to fit into hearthstone. There is zero reason to use neutral cards and if any of the Pokemon came out of a shredder for example the evolve mechanic would not work with other hero powers with its current wording.
It goes back to something I said a while ago which is the cards can be as balanced as you like but the class is not balanced with the rest of the game.
You have simply created your own Pokemon subgame within hearthstone rather than a class which could work for a tavern brawl but not the main game.
Just my opinion and what do I know my entry sucked but take from it what you will.
Well, I'm back after 3 days of Undertale. What a game. Even started dabbling in Undertale design, but then I realized I suck at it and I should probably finish the giant contest that has been the main focus of my life for the past month anyway.
These are the two cards that I've come up with over those few days. They're not uber-exciting, but I think they both fit well into Bard. But I am having major problems with the non-effect stuff.
The art for this card has been the most ridiculously frustrating thing I've come across in the 3-ish years I've been doing art searches (except for maybe Gong art, which is so impossible I'm switching it to a bell). For some reason, pictures of Bards with decent quality trumpets or trombones do not seem to exist beyond the one I'm using for Regal Trumpeteer, which is not really even a Bard. The one in this picture had no backround, so I had to put a crappy one in myself. Then there's the problem that this picture absolutely does not fit into the card in any good way...
So, if anyone has a suggestion for a better picture or better positioning for the art, please, help me ;_;
(EDIT: Looking back on it, the wording is also bugging me, so any tips on that would be cool too.)
So I said that I wanted a card with "Whenever you activate a Melody, do something", and I also said I wanted a Pirate. And when I said I wanted a Pirate, I knew for the sake of Bard that it had to have synergy with Ship's Cannon, because that card is just ridiculously cool and fits with token pirate. So this card basically checks off all three of those boxes.
The problem is, I don't know what to name either of them. The base card (the 2/3) is probably going to be in the form of [pirate adjective] + [musician/bard synonym]. Originally, it was called "Hightide Fiddler" but then I realized that my other Pirate card is called Freebooter's Fiddle... so it seemed repetitive.
As for the token... no clue where i'm going to go with it.
So yeah, help with art/names/balance is welcomed...
That's a tough one. I have two themes in mind. Firstly, you could try a bar/rum/music theme and name the token Drunken Pirate, Dancing Pirate, Cheerful Pirate or something like that, and then the girl is sort of like a barkeeper responsible for keeping morale up.
Or you can go in a different direction and the woman is a recruiter, and the token is obviously some swabbie/recruit/whatever. If the main card female, you can have some slightly... more entertaining undertone in both cases. And for a 1/1 pirate token in general, I would use something along the lines of http://orig15.deviantart.net/d97e/f/2010/183/c/c/pirate_by_hunqwert.jpg
instead of a high-ranking pirate with fancy clothes.
For arena I'd pick Hope Feeder, Bathe in Fear, Consopio, Lake Lurker, perhaps Voice of Lullabys (Lullabies?), Spectre, Manmade Terror, mmmmmmmaybe Ghost in the Machine and I don't really know what else highly. All your cards seem highly specialized and tailored for constructed, and a lot of them are so anti-tempo it hurts. Not to mention the fact that I would not even pick Incubus because even the warrior hero power is more useful than shuffling mediocre RANDOM stuff into your opponent's deck.
There's still one thing I don't understand: is Manifest an ongoing effect on minions, or is it one-time only? For example Manmade Terror: does it shuffle crap in my deck at the start of each turn or only the exact turn after it is played? Also, somewhat related to this, if a minion had a text like Manifest: Deal 2 damage to a random enemy, would it occur tied to the minion or independently, even after said minion is removed?
Also a place where all cards are visible, without commentaries, and around 300 pixels wide would be welcome, currently it is fairly hard to see them all together.
His theme, playstyle? Cancer aggro/mill. Play cheap aggro minions (and that Deathlord thing and maybe actual Deathlord in Wild to stall), then start using your hero power to fill their deck with junk then force them to draw all the nightmares. Use Ghost or Solitude to get rid of big taunts, and sometimes tech in Fade into Dream (it shouldn't be necessary with so many 2 mana removal options, though). Losing Courage is a really nice finisher, and with all the draw you are getting (4 mana draw 3 is amazing, especially if your opponent draws, too), you can easily fish for it.
In appreciation for that response, let me talk about Incubus. I also know that feeling of wanting an overview of your class as a whole, so...
@DKPaladinMDL
Hm... Bandmaster Pirate or Maestro Pirate or Bard Pirate for the girl. Maybe Dancing Pirate or Singing Pirate (Looks like he is talking/singing on the pic)
Good luck, I really liked your submissions :D
Come Play Make the Keyword!!!
Check out my Worgen Class in the Class Competition
Here are some early draft ideas that I've got going on. Feel free to comment or not, it's whatever. =)
More importantly, I'm kind of curious what y'all would like to see from the class. I'm trying to stick with "real-world" conspiracy theories and such, so I don't want to venture too far into blatantly sci-fi territory, but is there anything you think the Agent class should include? In addition to the below, stuff I've thought about including... "Swamp Gas", Stonehenge, Atlantis, Alient implants, Anunnaki (will probably be part of LoE), the Philadelphia Experiment or Montauk project, really thinking about what to do with Mothman, maybe something with hoaxes specifically like the moon landing, Bermuda Triangle, Project Bluebook...
I like the sound of Corsair, and I like the sound of Choir, but I hate three word names.
...
...
How bad of a pun is "Choirsair"?
Come Play Make the Keyword!!!
Check out my Worgen Class in the Class Competition
Good job guys! I don't think I could've done anymore of this with school getting in the way. Good luck!
Out-of-Place Artifact is a cliché that has been used a lot in the competition ever since Discover was implemented, and the Satellite is just a re-iteration of your own competition winning card, so I guess it wouldn't be popular and "new" in any way (also it doesn't quite fit the agent theme imo.)
The only other card I have a problem with is Tractor Beam, as it is, honestly, quite weak. It basically removes early drops from your opponent's deck, which is OK in the mid game but absolutely detrimental to you in the late game as you improve their deck quality dramatically. By turn 7, assuming you've used up all charges by then (Light's Justice value), you've covered up about 2 or 3 of their low drops, which increases the chance of them having Dr. Boom (or other big fat minions) in their hand by quite a lot. Face hunters are more likely to draw spells. Warriors get all their win conditions more reliably. Paladins... well that's none of your business. And even if the effect were positive (so it covered up theirs if it costs more, not less), it would still be marginal as the agent has so much card draw he's likely to uncover everything pretty quickly. Only potentially strong against minion-based combo decks, which aren't generally competitive nowadays. (stuff like mill rogue)
I like the rest, though. Thematically fitting, unique and balanced designs. And oh dear god an actually good card based on MC. A rare sight indeed.
Only thing I hope about agent is some card related to aliens building pyramids. Chaos... demands it! xD
Click to see my Hearthstone projects:
I'm not sure if this is the right place but the complaint about the pokemon popularity got me thinking..
Does anyone think that allowing a moderator of the Fan Creation forum be part of this competition is unprofessional and done in really poor taste? I have nothing against anyone here and most ideas have been great but it just runs along the lines of shady and feels like he has a potential bias/advantage compared to the unknown people that created decks. He also has knowledge before hand of the rules/requirements for the competition and who knows what other advantages mod privleges bring to a competition like this. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way but its really hard for me to enjoy competitions when I see something like this happen.
I don't think asylum has any sort of advantage, since the competition is entirely based upon votes. He couldn't have done anything that would have manipulated the votes and there isn't any advantage that he has over the rest of us. I knew the rules ahead of time as well, since the rules and times for every single phase were stated both in the very beginning and throughout the competition.
There isn't anything he could've done..? Also, he isn't the type of person to do anything like that anyway.
Check here for my new cards!Pokemon HS class!All the Pokemon as HS cards!