Imagine you're all Blizzard, how would you make Illidan a viable card instead of a trash grade legendary
Personally i would lower his attack below 7 , maybe to 5 or 6 as this takes away the big game hunter option to him, and increase his health up to match the decreased attack, and make him far more viable and likely to survive more than a light breeze. I also debate in my head on whether the flames of azzinoth are fine as is, or if they should have something like 1/2 instead of 2/1, which makes them actually a lot stronger against cards such as swipe, which might help them survive into Bloodlust or Savage Roar range.
Although its not so critical they survive, If Illidan was just more survivable he would become a supercharged Violet teacher that triggers on every card instead of just spells, if an opponent uses AOE to deal with a heap of flames of azzinoth that were generated for free illidan has already won an advantage for you.
Illidan need serious rework to be viable as a staple, reduce attack and increase health would be nice, maybe summon 2/2 flames.
But im having serious fun playing it as a rogue, not 100% useful, but a turn 10 illidan+master of disguise won me lots of games, esp against priests that don't have enough aoe to kill him and can't MC.
My understanding is Illidan's already used in Druid token minion decks. Some decks don't use Malygos, others do. I think Illidan's fine, and once an expansion is released, there will be more ways to use it.
The OP makes valid points, but every card doesn't have to be Nat Pagle or Cairne Bloodhoof. Some legends are situational, and that makes sense. Even Nat and Cairne aren't used in *every* deck.
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If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
the worst thing currently about illidan is how easy he is to kill, five damage seems to be this sweet spot that most control decks can do pretty easily with a combination of cards and hero powers fairly efficiently. Illidan's personal nightmare is swipe too. Especially spellpower swipe.
Personally i don't think he should be buffed into being so strong that hes considered a staple, we can't have every card be a staple, but theres a reason that hes considered trash tier, people dust him immediately because they think hes about as useful as a millhouse. Malygos is considered a far superior card to illidan, malygos can even have an immediate impact. There was an old warlock control deck that aimed to reach turn 9 and drop malygos and double soulfire for an 18 damage burst, which is the equivalent of Al'akir double rockbiter except disregards taunt at the slight risk of discarding the other soulfire
I think making him a 5/7 like Antonidas would make him a pretty good card. Maybe a bit too good for a 6 cost minion but giving him 4 attack instead of 5 would actually be a further buff in my opinion.
Though I don't think Blizzard is fine with giving him more health than attack. A 'defensive' half-naked guy with two warglaives just doesn't seem right.
I think part of the *point* is that Illidan is easy to kill. Figure like this - Cairne Bloodhoof doesn't have Taunt, and at 6-drop isn't an answer to weenie rush decks. For decks that run control, *you* run a Cairne to counter other control deck Cairne. Easy. Tinkmaster Overseer, Cairne, Silence, whatever.
But Illidan's different. If you're running control or mid-range aggro, and you start suddenly throwing all these cute health buffs / Big Game Hunter invulnerability by debuffing attack, etc - now, decks that have easy 1-card answers like Swipe or Whirlwind or Fan of Knives are suddenly extremely screwed. Don't get me wrong, it's cool if Illidan's buffed. I have Illidan. But buffing Illidan is really a push towards P2W (pay to win) in my opinion. The proposals you're making are pretty specifically pushing towards forcing an opponent to have a 2-card counter to Illidan (by what you wrote yourself, as I understand it), unless you're Mage (which already has tons of multidamage). You can already beef tokens up with Stormwind Champion, Sword of Justice, a few other things, but that requires two cards to pull off a combination, so it makes sense your opponent should have to use perhaps two cards to counter (only one sometimes, but that's the nature of combos; they're not supposed to be game over usually, just give you an advantage that you may or may not lose.)
The changes proposed go a lot deeper than that. Cairne's a one-off card. But once you start having basically super-Cairne for token minion, you change the entire token minion archetype meta. Now EVERY control deck has to run token minions or die, because regular control suddenly falls by the wayside because it can't control this new uber token minion control archetype. It's not quite as simple as simply Silence on Illidan, as it already has decent combat stats (so you go minus on board control), and it's not as simple as Tink on Illidan, because Illidan can be exploited as soon as he comes out - not easy for some decks, but not like Cairne, who doesn't have Charge and can be messed with before his Deathrattle goes off. The timing is different, the counter is different, all in all Illidan proposes a huge problem if you start making some of these proposed changes.
That's why I think Illidan shouldn't be changed. But you know, I can understand why some players would want Illidan to be cooler. It's Illidan, for goodness sake.
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
Your last point is exactly why i want to make him work. It feels wrong that illidan is so overlooked and bad, he was actually one of the cards i wanted most for quite a while (until i learned more and i was horrified)
I guess in a rogue deck you could use Conceal or Master of Disguise with him. Unfortunately I don't see him fitting in a Miracle Rogue deck because he's far too expensive - which is a shame because the synergy with lots of cheap cards and already having stealthgivers in the deck would otherwise be pretty nice.
I have him in a Druid deck (for the moment) just to see how he does. I got two Flames of Azzinoth of him by playing Innervate late game, aside from just playing other cards. He seems OK, but I may replace him.
Illidan is in a Legendary deck currently ranked 41. So he can't be all that bad. Often he is just another Lightning Rod for a removal card. Don't play him unless you can make 2 azzes.
Make his flames 2/2 and make it when hes summoned you get the warglaives to fight with. He is now a big target.... But hes also done some thing when hitting the board (given you a weapon) and if your opponent doesnt deal with him, he faces the flames getting out of control. Suddenly.. he sucks less, but is still easily managable (killable).
Not perfect, but a quick simple idea.
Also when played as a druid he should say some thing like: "So you need me after all... Brother.."
Make his flames 2/2 and make it when hes summoned you get the warglaives to fight with. He is now a big target.... But hes also done some thing when hitting the board (given you a weapon) and if your opponent doesnt deal with him, he faces the flames getting out of control. Suddenly.. he sucks less, but is still easily managable (killable).
Not perfect, but a quick simple idea.
Also when played as a druid he should say some thing like: "So you need me after all... Brother.."
i don't think illidan would work with his brother even if he needed him. The only time they teamed up was to protect that elf illidan has the hard on for (its been a long time okay)
Make his flames 2/2 and make it when hes summoned you get the warglaives to fight with. He is now a big target.... But hes also done some thing when hitting the board (given you a weapon) and if your opponent doesnt deal with him, he faces the flames getting out of control. Suddenly.. he sucks less, but is still easily managable (killable).
Not perfect, but a quick simple idea.
Also when played as a druid he should say some thing like: "So you need me after all... Brother.."
i don't think illidan would work with his brother even if he needed him. The only time they teamed up was to protect that elf illidan has the hard on for (its been a long time okay)
They paired up in W3 during one of the campaign missions, as well as a cata dungeon in wow. And from what I recall theres alot of dissention between the brothers, so for malfuron to ask for his assistance, I can only imagine that illidan would reply with some thing to that effect.
Edit: Or really he could just say: Up yours! and your opponent gains control of him.. That would also be pretty fun to see as long as im not the druid lol.
Imagine you're all Blizzard, how would you make Illidan a viable card instead of a trash grade legendary
Personally i would lower his attack below 7 , maybe to 5 or 6 as this takes away the big game hunter option to him, and increase his health up to match the decreased attack, and make him far more viable and likely to survive more than a light breeze. I also debate in my head on whether the flames of azzinoth are fine as is, or if they should have something like 1/2 instead of 2/1, which makes them actually a lot stronger against cards such as swipe, which might help them survive into Bloodlust or Savage Roar range.
Although its not so critical they survive, If Illidan was just more survivable he would become a supercharged Violet teacher that triggers on every card instead of just spells, if an opponent uses AOE to deal with a heap of flames of azzinoth that were generated for free illidan has already won an advantage for you.
While we're at it, why not make him attack 4? That way he can't be Shadow Word: Killed.
And maybe give his summons taunt so that they force board attention?
And... oh, I'm describing Hogger, aren't I?
Illidan need serious rework to be viable as a staple, reduce attack and increase health would be nice, maybe summon 2/2 flames.
But im having serious fun playing it as a rogue, not 100% useful, but a turn 10 illidan+master of disguise won me lots of games, esp against priests that don't have enough aoe to kill him and can't MC.
My understanding is Illidan's already used in Druid token minion decks. Some decks don't use Malygos, others do. I think Illidan's fine, and once an expansion is released, there will be more ways to use it.
The OP makes valid points, but every card doesn't have to be Nat Pagle or Cairne Bloodhoof. Some legends are situational, and that makes sense. Even Nat and Cairne aren't used in *every* deck.
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
the worst thing currently about illidan is how easy he is to kill, five damage seems to be this sweet spot that most control decks can do pretty easily with a combination of cards and hero powers fairly efficiently. Illidan's personal nightmare is swipe too. Especially spellpower swipe.
Personally i don't think he should be buffed into being so strong that hes considered a staple, we can't have every card be a staple, but theres a reason that hes considered trash tier, people dust him immediately because they think hes about as useful as a millhouse. Malygos is considered a far superior card to illidan, malygos can even have an immediate impact. There was an old warlock control deck that aimed to reach turn 9 and drop malygos and double soulfire for an 18 damage burst, which is the equivalent of Al'akir double rockbiter except disregards taunt at the slight risk of discarding the other soulfire
I remember when mid-range decks ran Violent Teacher as a staple so Illidin could be great if it costed less just think that + warsong Commander ;)
I think making him a 5/7 like Antonidas would make him a pretty good card. Maybe a bit too good for a 6 cost minion but giving him 4 attack instead of 5 would actually be a further buff in my opinion.
Though I don't think Blizzard is fine with giving him more health than attack. A 'defensive' half-naked guy with two warglaives just doesn't seem right.
I think part of the *point* is that Illidan is easy to kill. Figure like this - Cairne Bloodhoof doesn't have Taunt, and at 6-drop isn't an answer to weenie rush decks. For decks that run control, *you* run a Cairne to counter other control deck Cairne. Easy. Tinkmaster Overseer, Cairne, Silence, whatever.
But Illidan's different. If you're running control or mid-range aggro, and you start suddenly throwing all these cute health buffs / Big Game Hunter invulnerability by debuffing attack, etc - now, decks that have easy 1-card answers like Swipe or Whirlwind or Fan of Knives are suddenly extremely screwed. Don't get me wrong, it's cool if Illidan's buffed. I have Illidan. But buffing Illidan is really a push towards P2W (pay to win) in my opinion. The proposals you're making are pretty specifically pushing towards forcing an opponent to have a 2-card counter to Illidan (by what you wrote yourself, as I understand it), unless you're Mage (which already has tons of multidamage). You can already beef tokens up with Stormwind Champion, Sword of Justice, a few other things, but that requires two cards to pull off a combination, so it makes sense your opponent should have to use perhaps two cards to counter (only one sometimes, but that's the nature of combos; they're not supposed to be game over usually, just give you an advantage that you may or may not lose.)
The changes proposed go a lot deeper than that. Cairne's a one-off card. But once you start having basically super-Cairne for token minion, you change the entire token minion archetype meta. Now EVERY control deck has to run token minions or die, because regular control suddenly falls by the wayside because it can't control this new uber token minion control archetype. It's not quite as simple as simply Silence on Illidan, as it already has decent combat stats (so you go minus on board control), and it's not as simple as Tink on Illidan, because Illidan can be exploited as soon as he comes out - not easy for some decks, but not like Cairne, who doesn't have Charge and can be messed with before his Deathrattle goes off. The timing is different, the counter is different, all in all Illidan proposes a huge problem if you start making some of these proposed changes.
That's why I think Illidan shouldn't be changed. But you know, I can understand why some players would want Illidan to be cooler. It's Illidan, for goodness sake.
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
Your last point is exactly why i want to make him work. It feels wrong that illidan is so overlooked and bad, he was actually one of the cards i wanted most for quite a while (until i learned more and i was horrified)
The only way to get any value out of Illidan is to go second.
Physika #1165
I guess in a rogue deck you could use Conceal or Master of Disguise with him. Unfortunately I don't see him fitting in a Miracle Rogue deck because he's far too expensive - which is a shame because the synergy with lots of cheap cards and already having stealthgivers in the deck would otherwise be pretty nice.
I have him in a Druid deck (for the moment) just to see how he does. I got two Flames of Azzinoth of him by playing Innervate late game, aside from just playing other cards. He seems OK, but I may replace him.
I'd just swap his attack and health.
Imagine that in a miracle rogue deck... Somewhat broken. :)
Illidan is in a Legendary deck currently ranked 41. So he can't be all that bad. Often he is just another Lightning Rod for a removal card. Don't play him unless you can make 2 azzes.
Also...he has the coolest Emote when you play against a Druid.
Make his flames 2/2 and make it when hes summoned you get the warglaives to fight with. He is now a big target.... But hes also done some thing when hitting the board (given you a weapon) and if your opponent doesnt deal with him, he faces the flames getting out of control. Suddenly.. he sucks less, but is still easily managable (killable).
Not perfect, but a quick simple idea.
Also when played as a druid he should say some thing like: "So you need me after all... Brother.."
Do you happen to have a link to that deck list? I'm really curious as to how he is used in that deck.
i don't think illidan would work with his brother even if he needed him. The only time they teamed up was to protect that elf illidan has the hard on for (its been a long time okay)
They paired up in W3 during one of the campaign missions, as well as a cata dungeon in wow. And from what I recall theres alot of dissention between the brothers, so for malfuron to ask for his assistance, I can only imagine that illidan would reply with some thing to that effect.
Edit: Or really he could just say: Up yours! and your opponent gains control of him.. That would also be pretty fun to see as long as im not the druid lol.