Hearthpwn

why do none of these decks play auctioneer, with 20+ spells it feels like it would be worth trying, and at it's mana cost you'd win the jousts too more often than not

Quote from pupintheturd jump

I'm not sold on this card. We already had Antique Healbot for similiar amounts of healing and honestly heal OPTIONS haven't been an issue for Shaman since GvG came out. I think the real issue is that the available heals, Healbot and Vitality Totem don't contribute to fighting for board control and are poor cards value-wise. So in a scenario where you can play Dr. Boom and simply pray that they don't have the winning-condition or play Antique Healbot and guarantee your survival but have a significantly weaker board position in the upcoming turns you're almost always forced into playing the Boom and pray. A lot of the time, even though you put Healbot in your deck to combat aggro, if you're playing Healbot against a full board all you're really doing is paying 5 mana to develop a 3/3 without taking any damage which isn't even close enough to regain board control against most aggro decks.

I'll be experimenting with it obviously but I'm not very optimistic, Vitality Totem and Antique Healbot weren't enough, so I doubt that this pure heal effect will be any different, even if it'll heal twice as much health.

I'll be waiting for the day that Guardian of Kings becomes a Shaman card.

totally agree with ur post, shaman needs boardcontrol cards not heals. its not a control deck. Ill be waiting for muster the totems card.

Quote from Skiddo_Publiq jump

Quote from pupintheturd jump

I'm not sold on this card. We already had Antique Healbot for similiar amounts of healing and honestly heal OPTIONS haven't been an issue for Shaman since GvG came out. I think the real issue is that the available heals, Healbot and Vitality Totem don't contribute to fighting for board control and are poor cards value-wise. So in a scenario where you can play Dr. Boom and simply pray that they don't have the winning-condition or play Antique Healbot and guarantee your survival but have a significantly weaker board position in the upcoming turns you're almost always forced into playing the Boom and pray. A lot of the time, even though you put Healbot in your deck to combat aggro, if you're playing Healbot against a full board all you're really doing is paying 5 mana to develop a 3/3 without taking any damage which isn't even close enough to regain board control against most aggro decks.

I'll be experimenting with it obviously but I'm not very optimistic, Vitality Totem and Antique Healbot weren't enough, so I doubt that this pure heal effect will be any different, even if it'll heal twice as much health.

I'll be waiting for the day that Guardian of Kings becomes a Shaman card.

totally agree with ur post, shaman needs boardcontrol cards not heals. its not a control deck. Ill be waiting for muster the totems card.

You mean like bloodlust and thunder bluff valiant? If you don't see how important this card is for shaman to climb  the ladder then you don't have enough experience with the class and its weaknesses. This card also creates new options for shaman deck building, shaman can play control and with belchers, feral spirit and lightning storms you will have a hard time losing to aggro decks that previously made shaman control unplayable on ladder. Shaman cards like ancestral healing become viable in a control deck with Giants or even twilight drakes. 

Shaman needs a comeback mechanic like lightbomb and brawl. Or at least a GOOD AoE spell not stuff like forked lighting... Where is my Chain Lightning Blizzard?

So we can wipe the board and heal or play stuff

There is potential that Thunder Bluff Valiant will do better than you think. With our new early minions we can win the board by turn 5. That means we play this on turn 5 and if they are behind we snow ball with it because only like...3 spells kill it for under 5 mana (Fireball, Crackle, and Shadow Word: Pain maybe more, I forget, those are the commons ones). If you manage to have an even board this is just as threatening. If you are behind, this card might be able to trade with their board a bit (3/6 means it wins a fight against piloted shredder). So there could be reasons to play this on turn 5. It's probably not an all star champ, but it's a very solid card.

 

You mean like bloodlust and thunder bluff valiant? If you don't see how important this card is for shaman to climb  the ladder then you don't have enough experience with the class and its weaknesses. This card also creates new options for shaman deck building, shaman can play control and with belchers, feral spirit and lightning storms you will have a hard time losing to aggro decks that previously made shaman control unplayable on ladder. Shaman cards like ancestral healing become viable in a control deck with Giants or even twilight drakes. 

but shaman doesnt have reliable ways to regain board control, so if they dont commit to an early game i dont think healing will save you. early game makes joust even worst. I agree with the potential deck building but as i said before , so far the shaman cards arent cut for a control shaman and i doubt all control shaman needed to become viable was a slightly better heal than healbot that doesnt even contest the board. 

Quote from Gilliamgaming jump

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Quote from pupintheturd jump

I'm not sold on this card. We already had Antique Healbot for similiar amounts of healing and honestly heal OPTIONS haven't been an issue for Shaman since GvG came out. I think the real issue is that the available heals, Healbot and Vitality Totem don't contribute to fighting for board control and are poor cards value-wise. So in a scenario where you can play Dr. Boom and simply pray that they don't have the winning-condition or play Antique Healbot and guarantee your survival but have a significantly weaker board position in the upcoming turns you're almost always forced into playing the Boom and pray. A lot of the time, even though you put Healbot in your deck to combat aggro, if you're playing Healbot against a full board all you're really doing is paying 5 mana to develop a 3/3 without taking any damage which isn't even close enough to regain board control against most aggro decks.

I'll be experimenting with it obviously but I'm not very optimistic, Vitality Totem and Antique Healbot weren't enough, so I doubt that this pure heal effect will be any different, even if it'll heal twice as much health.

I'll be waiting for the day that Guardian of Kings becomes a Shaman card.

totally agree with ur post, shaman needs boardcontrol cards not heals. its not a control deck. Ill be waiting for muster the totems card.

You mean like bloodlust and thunder bluff valiant? If you don't see how important this card is for shaman to climb  the ladder then you don't have enough experience with the class and its weaknesses. This card also creates new options for shaman deck building, shaman can play control and with belchers, feral spirit and lightning storms you will have a hard time losing to aggro decks that previously made shaman control unplayable on ladder. Shaman cards like ancestral healing become viable in a control deck with Giants or even twilight drakes. 

I think that Thunder Bluff Valiant is a weak card that won't be played past rank 15 or so... You have to look at it as an 7 mana minion, since you would never drop it on turn 5 and then let it die. And at 7 mana, what would you rather drop? A pair of shitty midrange minions without an active effect on your opponent, or Dr. Boom? To be honest, shamans did get great board control minions in the form of Totem Golem and Tuskarr Totemic. They actually provide excellent stats for their mana cost and allow you to trade up.

Edit: Ok i got heavily confused between Thunder Bluff Valiant and Kodorider (gee wonder why haha). My argument still stands though

We couldn't have played Thunder Bluff Valiant yet but I'd say its damn good card because 1. it requires answer or it will get out of hand, 2. it doesn't require other cards to be built around it since it synergises with our hero power additively every turn and 3. it has a strong body for 5 mana cost. Why exactly couldn't you play this on T5? If you're control shaman you DO have alot bigger threats in your arsenal so if he indeed uses hard removal to remove it (pretty high end since it needs to do 6 damage) you effectively give better chances for your Nep/Boom/Rag/Al-Akir etc. There aren't too many 5 drops or lower that can actually kill 3/6 outright, especially when we got stronger early game cards to buff our early game. Of course you might not have board control but its pretty good chance that you do with Totem Golem, Tuskarr Totemic and Fireguard Destroyer / Piloted Shredder.

To Topic then. I don't really understand why people say that you don't get any board presence with this card. You think we honestly just play this card and totem up? Because the cost is 3 mana we actually can play good minions on the same turn which would be alot harder with AH's 5 mana. The reason I runVitality Totem at the moment on my control shaman is exactly this. And let's be honest with the jousting, OF COURSE we will lose good amount of jousts against control but that doesn't really matter since we WRECK handlock, CW and paladin control even without TGT cards. This is one of those "tech" cards against aggro that proc approximately 70-80% of the time vs face and id say 60-70% versus Zoo. It's the exact same reason why Feral spirit is still played in some shaman decks, its damn good versus aggro. Who cares if it's not the best card versus control? We already have the cards needed to beat control decks. 

About jousting, at the moment the deck that I've theorycrafted for TGT has 5x 2drops, 3x 3 drop, 3x 4 drops, 3x 5 drops, 3x 6 drops, 2x 7 and 1 8 drop. That's an average of 4.2 which of course isn't the best but its not THAT bad if we consider other control decks have to also run lower drops like Shielded Minibot, Zombie Chow and the owl (too much Earth Shock, cant remember the damn owls name)

Quote from Gilliamgaming jump

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Quote from pupintheturd jump

I'm not sold on this card. We already had Antique Healbot for similiar amounts of healing and honestly heal OPTIONS haven't been an issue for Shaman since GvG came out. I think the real issue is that the available heals, Healbot and Vitality Totem don't contribute to fighting for board control and are poor cards value-wise. So in a scenario where you can play Dr. Boom and simply pray that they don't have the winning-condition or play Antique Healbot and guarantee your survival but have a significantly weaker board position in the upcoming turns you're almost always forced into playing the Boom and pray. A lot of the time, even though you put Healbot in your deck to combat aggro, if you're playing Healbot against a full board all you're really doing is paying 5 mana to develop a 3/3 without taking any damage which isn't even close enough to regain board control against most aggro decks.

I'll be experimenting with it obviously but I'm not very optimistic, Vitality Totem and Antique Healbot weren't enough, so I doubt that this pure heal effect will be any different, even if it'll heal twice as much health.

I'll be waiting for the day that Guardian of Kings becomes a Shaman card.

totally agree with ur post, shaman needs boardcontrol cards not heals. its not a control deck. Ill be waiting for muster the totems card.

You mean like bloodlust and thunder bluff valiant? If you don't see how important this card is for shaman to climb  the ladder then you don't have enough experience with the class and its weaknesses. This card also creates new options for shaman deck building, shaman can play control and with belchers, feral spirit and lightning storms you will have a hard time losing to aggro decks that previously made shaman control unplayable on ladder. Shaman cards like ancestral healing become viable in a control deck with Giants or even twilight drakes. 

I think that Thunder Bluff Valiant is a weak card that won't be played past rank 15 or so... You have to look at it as an 7 mana minion, since you would never drop it on turn 5 and then let it die. And at 7 mana, what would you rather drop? A pair of shitty midrange minions without an active effect on your opponent, or Dr. Boom? To be honest, shamans did get great board control minions in the form of Totem Golem and Tuskarr Totemic. They actually provide excellent stats for their mana cost and allow you to trade up.

Edit: Ok i got heavily confused between Thunder Bluff Valiant and Kodorider (gee wonder why haha). My argument still stands though

Compare it to Quartermaster. That card is usually a 7 too if you don't have muster. The difference is also that since it has 6 health you could actually feasibly play it on turn 5 and have it live a turn

Quote from Gilliamgaming jump

Ok well time will tell whether, and in what deck, Thunder Bluff Valiant is good. Looking at it again I can kinda see it working, but in a meta that is too heavilly focussed on tempo / agro I can see this card being too slow or a win-more card. If shamans can consistantly grab board control early on, then yes it'll be good. It will get wrecked by patron warrior if you give yourself a ton of 2 attack totems though, but hey shamans already didnt stand a chance against patron warrior hehe

To segway back onto topic, I think that Healing Wave is at most a one of in a standard tempo / early board control shaman. Its clearly more suited for setting up very lategame control shaman decks.

I kind of dislike the term "win more card" since games can be lost no matter how many minions you have on the board. You win when your opponent's health hits 0, before that anything you can do to "win more" is good. People say mana tide totem is a win more card, it's a liability vs Aggro for sure because it doesn't trade with anything and you lose tempo but in a situation where you have board control already the extra cards drawn from playing mana tide might actually decide the game that you would otherwise have lost despite having had good control of the board because it allowed you to draw into something critical earlier than you would have. 

Many people thought antique healbot was a bad card when it came out because they didn't see much value in the healing for the weak 3/3 body, then when the card comes out people realize how important healing really is against certain match ups. Healing 11+ on average is devastating against aggro and can instantly win you the game. The reason why healbot is run is for the healing, and this card just does it with much better cost efficiency. And that only makes sense, right? Antique healbot is only neutral. It was only a matter of time before better class-specific heals were introduced. I'm certainly not surprised. 

Quote from Teletrip jump

Quote from Gilliamgaming jump

Ok well time will tell whether, and in what deck, Thunder Bluff Valiant is good. Looking at it again I can kinda see it working, but in a meta that is too heavilly focussed on tempo / agro I can see this card being too slow or a win-more card. If shamans can consistantly grab board control early on, then yes it'll be good. It will get wrecked by patron warrior if you give yourself a ton of 2 attack totems though, but hey shamans already didnt stand a chance against patron warrior hehe

To segway back onto topic, I think that Healing Wave is at most a one of in a standard tempo / early board control shaman. Its clearly more suited for setting up very lategame control shaman decks.

I kind of dislike the term "win more card" since games can be lost no matter how many minions you have on the board. You win when your opponent's health hits 0, before that anything you can do to "win more" is good. People say mana tide totem is a win more card, it's a liability vs Aggro for sure because it doesn't trade with anything and you lose tempo but in a situation where you have board control already the extra cards drawn from playing mana tide might actually decide the game that you would otherwise have lost despite having had good control of the board because it allowed you to draw into something critical earlier than you would have. 

I'll just give you an example, frostbolt or flamecannon. I think u confuse "win more" cards with "anything you cn do to win more". Any card can help you to win more, some cards though can help you win even when you are behind, you can call it flexibility or plan B or whatever. Its the difference between a consistent deck and an incosistent. Ofc you can have "win more" cards in the deck and sometimes they pay off but thats when the stars align or when they are supported by the rest of your consistent cards and draw. Thats why when a deck is created some cards are cut others are added. You need your cards to serve you at any point of the game.