Those special effects distracted me from the truth :o.
In all honesty, you almost never actually get to use it for the destroy weapon effect. It's also a 4 mana card so it's really hard to combo.
I think they should lower the mana cost to 3. Destroying a weapon isn't really worth the extra mana. If it was 4 mana it should not be required to combo. I think that's where they made the mistake. If the card was 3 mana, I reckon rogue would become viable as it helps solve their problem with dealing with big minions. Rogue unlike hunter can clear the board and single out a minion for the sabotage.
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First of all it would become strictly better than another class card. Second Sabotage's combo ability takes care of Death's Bites(Helps prevent combos) , Poisoned, or Oiled Daggers, and occasionally Ashbringer. Sabotage while not great is still a fine tool.
While being strictly better than another class card is not unheard of (see: Frostbolt vs. Darkbomb), this is normally balanced by all the other cards a class has. In Rogue's case, with their very powerful AOE and Sap, a 3 mana Sabotage would be ridiculously powerful. As it is I already use it in my Rogue and it's perfectly fine.
While being strictly better than another class card is not unheard of (see: Frostbolt vs. Darkbomb), this is normally balanced by all the other cards a class has. In Rogue's case, with their very powerful AOE and Sap, a 3 mana Sabotage would be ridiculously powerful. As it is I already use it in my Rogue and it's perfectly fine.
The conditions for sabotage to actually destroy a weapon is very hard to create. Weapons are usually played between the 2-4 mana curve so comboing 4 mana at that stage is very difficult or not worth it at all. Also, against grim warrior, there is really no big minion that requires hard removal. You will probably kill an armor smith at best. If the board is floaded with grim patrons, i am sure you want to being clearing the board rather than using sabotage. Also, half of the time grim warriors have no units on the board and play everything at once so you can't even cast sabotage. With rogue (rarely played anyway) and hunter, saving the sabotage to combo is way too slow. It might even be a dead card because you will die if you cast it. Paladin is the only matchup where I see sabotage being used for both effects somewhat sufficiently. The thing is you run the risk of just sabotaging a silverhand recruit. You also have to decide between using it to kill the ashbringer or killing tirion. Long story short, you are using sabotage as a deadly shot most of the time or as a much worst acidic swap ooze.
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While being strictly better than another class card is not unheard of (see: Frostbolt vs. Darkbomb), this is normally balanced by all the other cards a class has. In Rogue's case, with their very powerful AOE and Sap, a 3 mana Sabotage would be ridiculously powerful. As it is I already use it in my Rogue and it's perfectly fine.
The conditions for sabotage to actually destroy a weapon is very hard to create. Weapons are usually played between the 2-4 mana curve so comboing 4 mana at that stage is very difficult or not worth it at all. Also, against grim warrior, there is really no big minion that requires hard removal. You will probably kill an armor smith at best. If the board is floaded with grim patrons, i am sure you want to being clearing the board rather than using sabotage. Also, half of the time grim warriors have no units on the board and play everything at once so you can't even cast sabotage. With rogue (rarely played anyway) and hunter, saving the sabotage to combo is way too slow. It might even be a dead card because you will die if you cast it. Paladin is the only matchup where I see sabotage being used for both effects somewhat sufficiently. The thing is you run the risk of just sabotaging a silverhand recruit. You also have to decide between using it to kill the ashbringer or killing tirion. Long story short, you are using sabotage as a deadly shot most of the time or as a much worst acidic swap ooze.
Gonna have to respectfully disagree with you there based on my extensive play testing (I have over 1k wins with Rogue since GvG probably).
Sabotage was never meant to be used in the early game without Prep and developing your board, it's a late game removal and you should only opt to use it early under the most desperate of situations, hence the 2 - 4 mana argument of weapons isn't valid since you won't be looking to draw into it that early.
Against Grim Patron Warrior, trust me when getting a Death's Bite without a creature is worth it (if you can get it with any creature then great). Is it better than Ooze in this scenario? Of course not, but you use it anyway because it's a versatile card that's still very playable and has a potential upside. Getting the DB a turn before he's going to combo you can be the difference between a win and a loss. Again, he won't have a board full of Patrons since you're killing it the turn before, trying to get both effects off is very greedy and unnecessary when you recognize that just getting the weapon will win you the game.
See argument #1 for the Hunter scenario, it's not meant as an early card, it's meant to help maintain tempo by destroying a weapon and a creature for 4 mana (or just the weapon if you can't take 3 more damage, or just a creature if you want to continue pushing for damage with minions and save Eviscerate for the face).
Yes you can hit a Silver Hand Recruit, but you also have Backstab, Sap, Blade Flurry, Fan of Knives, Dark Iron Skulker, etc. to make sure all that's left is the minion you want to hit. You can't compare it to Deadly Shot, Hunter doesn't have Preparation. Sabotage at 3 mana is ridiculously OP.
You're too fixated on the combo, hard removal for 4 is worth it a lot of times for Rogue because they don't have efficient ways of dealing with big minions, I've used it countless of times to kill a big minion when I'm far from finishing my opponent. Sap is better when you just need 1 - 2 more turns, Sabotage is better when you foresee the game going longer. I personally run 1 Sap and 1 Sabotage in my Tempo Rogue, I don't foresee ever running 2 Saps after playing with Sabotage.
Don't think of how clunky it is to have to get the combo off, that's not how the combo system works. The combo is there to potentially get you more tempo, play the card as is when you need it.
2-for-1 cards are very good, even if you don't always get the 2nd effect, the potential of it going off makes it a more valuable card in general.
It's not a broken card by any means, but Sap is a very widely played card, and all Rogues know that situation when simply delaying a minion for less mana is not better than outright killing it.
While being strictly better than another class card is not unheard of (see: Frostbolt vs. Darkbomb), this is normally balanced by all the other cards a class has. In Rogue's case, with their very powerful AOE and Sap, a 3 mana Sabotage would be ridiculously powerful. As it is I already use it in my Rogue and it's perfectly fine.
The conditions for sabotage to actually destroy a weapon is very hard to create. Weapons are usually played between the 2-4 mana curve so comboing 4 mana at that stage is very difficult or not worth it at all. Also, against grim warrior, there is really no big minion that requires hard removal. You will probably kill an armor smith at best. If the board is floaded with grim patrons, i am sure you want to being clearing the board rather than using sabotage. Also, half of the time grim warriors have no units on the board and play everything at once so you can't even cast sabotage. With rogue (rarely played anyway) and hunter, saving the sabotage to combo is way too slow. It might even be a dead card because you will die if you cast it. Paladin is the only matchup where I see sabotage being used for both effects somewhat sufficiently. The thing is you run the risk of just sabotaging a silverhand recruit. You also have to decide between using it to kill the ashbringer or killing tirion. Long story short, you are using sabotage as a deadly shot most of the time or as a much worst acidic swap ooze.
Gonna have to respectfully disagree with you there based on my extensive play testing (I have over 1k wins with Rogue since GvG probably).
Sabotage was never meant to be used in the early game without Prep and developing your board, it's a late game removal and you should only opt to use it early under the most desperate of situations, hence the 2 - 4 mana argument of weapons isn't valid since you won't be looking to draw into it that early.
Against Grim Patron Warrior, trust me when getting a Death's Bite without a creature is worth it (if you can get it with any creature then great). Is it better than Ooze in this scenario? Of course not, but you use it anyway because it's a versatile card that's still very playable and has a potential upside. Getting the DB a turn before he's going to combo you can be the difference between a win and a loss. Again, he won't have a board full of Patrons since you're killing it the turn before, trying to get both effects off is very greedy and unnecessary when you recognize that just getting the weapon will win you the game.
See argument #1 for the Hunter scenario, it's not meant as an early card, it's meant to help maintain tempo by destroying a weapon and a creature for 4 mana (or just the weapon if you can't take 3 more damage, or just a creature if you want to continue pushing for damage with minions and save Eviscerate for the face).
Yes you can hit a Silver Hand Recruit, but you also have Backstab, Sap, Blade Flurry, Fan of Knives, Dark Iron Skulker, etc. to make sure all that's left is the minion you want to hit. You can't compare it to Deadly Shot, Hunter doesn't have Preparation. Sabotage at 3 mana is ridiculously OP.
You're too fixated on the combo, hard removal for 4 is worth it a lot of times for Rogue because they don't have efficient ways of dealing with big minions, I've used it countless of times to kill a big minion when I'm far from finishing my opponent. Sap is better when you just need 1 - 2 more turns, Sabotage is better when you foresee the game going longer. I personally run 1 Sap and 1 Sabotage in my Tempo Rogue, I don't foresee ever running 2 Saps after playing with Sabotage.
Don't think of how clunky it is to have to get the combo off, that's not how the combo system works. The combo is there to potentially get you more tempo, play the card as is when you need it.
2-for-1 cards are very good, even if you don't always get the 2nd effect, the potential of it going off makes it a more valuable card in general.
It's not a broken card by any means, but Sap is a very widely played card, and all Rogues know that situation when simply delaying a minion for less mana is not better than outright killing it.
1. Sab+prep means you lose a card. The meta is currently still fast so there is no need for expensive hard removal.
2. I meant you can't cast sabotage without an enemy minion on the board and they generally won't have any at that stage.
3. Yes, it's a late game card according to you so it's a dead card against hunter.
4. I am sure using any spells to remove silverhand recruits aside from fan is optimal. Dark Iron Skulker is 5 mana so to sabotage it will require 9 mana in total. With prep again, it's a 2 for 1. Rogue persistently face the issue of running out of cards and this is one of the reasons.
5. No I don't care about the combo. I am concerned about the fact it's 4 mana. Also, there are mostly no big minions in this meta asides from handlocks.
6. It can be a tempo card but it's mostly a removal card. It can help you maintain your tempo IF you already have board control. You also said it's a late game card.
7. You rarely get 2 for 1.
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To op, Rogue is already viable....see Oil Rogue. 3 mana would OP, considering its combo possibility which is massively powerful against warrior, paladin or rogue. Rogue has a million other powerful removals, so no sabotage is fine.
Sabotage will slow grim down with DB rattle, however considering the classes that actually run weapons and the tempo of running harrison in comparison to this card, i think its just silly.
This card will often just sit in your hand; i think i'd rather have a 2 mana draw and i dont even want one of those.
While being strictly better than another class card is not unheard of (see: Frostbolt vs. Darkbomb), this is normally balanced by all the other cards a class has. In Rogue's case, with their very powerful AOE and Sap, a 3 mana Sabotage would be ridiculously powerful. As it is I already use it in my Rogue and it's perfectly fine.
The conditions for sabotage to actually destroy a weapon is very hard to create. Weapons are usually played between the 2-4 mana curve so comboing 4 mana at that stage is very difficult or not worth it at all. Also, against grim warrior, there is really no big minion that requires hard removal. You will probably kill an armor smith at best. If the board is floaded with grim patrons, i am sure you want to being clearing the board rather than using sabotage. Also, half of the time grim warriors have no units on the board and play everything at once so you can't even cast sabotage. With rogue (rarely played anyway) and hunter, saving the sabotage to combo is way too slow. It might even be a dead card because you will die if you cast it. Paladin is the only matchup where I see sabotage being used for both effects somewhat sufficiently. The thing is you run the risk of just sabotaging a silverhand recruit. You also have to decide between using it to kill the ashbringer or killing tirion. Long story short, you are using sabotage as a deadly shot most of the time or as a much worst acidic swap ooze.
Gonna have to respectfully disagree with you there based on my extensive play testing (I have over 1k wins with Rogue since GvG probably).
Sabotage was never meant to be used in the early game without Prep and developing your board, it's a late game removal and you should only opt to use it early under the most desperate of situations, hence the 2 - 4 mana argument of weapons isn't valid since you won't be looking to draw into it that early.
Against Grim Patron Warrior, trust me when getting a Death's Bite without a creature is worth it (if you can get it with any creature then great). Is it better than Ooze in this scenario? Of course not, but you use it anyway because it's a versatile card that's still very playable and has a potential upside. Getting the DB a turn before he's going to combo you can be the difference between a win and a loss. Again, he won't have a board full of Patrons since you're killing it the turn before, trying to get both effects off is very greedy and unnecessary when you recognize that just getting the weapon will win you the game.
See argument #1 for the Hunter scenario, it's not meant as an early card, it's meant to help maintain tempo by destroying a weapon and a creature for 4 mana (or just the weapon if you can't take 3 more damage, or just a creature if you want to continue pushing for damage with minions and save Eviscerate for the face).
Yes you can hit a Silver Hand Recruit, but you also have Backstab, Sap, Blade Flurry, Fan of Knives, Dark Iron Skulker, etc. to make sure all that's left is the minion you want to hit. You can't compare it to Deadly Shot, Hunter doesn't have Preparation. Sabotage at 3 mana is ridiculously OP.
You're too fixated on the combo, hard removal for 4 is worth it a lot of times for Rogue because they don't have efficient ways of dealing with big minions, I've used it countless of times to kill a big minion when I'm far from finishing my opponent. Sap is better when you just need 1 - 2 more turns, Sabotage is better when you foresee the game going longer. I personally run 1 Sap and 1 Sabotage in my Tempo Rogue, I don't foresee ever running 2 Saps after playing with Sabotage.
Don't think of how clunky it is to have to get the combo off, that's not how the combo system works. The combo is there to potentially get you more tempo, play the card as is when you need it.
2-for-1 cards are very good, even if you don't always get the 2nd effect, the potential of it going off makes it a more valuable card in general.
It's not a broken card by any means, but Sap is a very widely played card, and all Rogues know that situation when simply delaying a minion for less mana is not better than outright killing it.
1. Sab+prep means you lose a card. The meta is currently still fast so there is no need for expensive hard removal.
2. I meant you can't cast sabotage without an enemy minion on the board and they generally won't have any at that stage.
3. Yes, it's a late game card according to you so it's a dead card against hunter.
4. I am sure using any spells to remove silverhand recruits aside from fan is optimal. Dark Iron Skulker is 5 mana so to sabotage it will require 9 mana in total. With prep again, it's a 2 for 1. Rogue persistently face the issue of running out of cards and this is one of the reasons.
5. No I don't care about the combo. I am concerned about the fact it's 4 mana. Also, there are mostly no big minions in this meta asides from handlocks.
6. It can be a tempo card but it's mostly a removal card. It can help you maintain your tempo IF you already have board control. You also said it's a late game card.
7. You rarely get 2 for 1.
1. Rogue cards are generally not card efficient, they're tempo efficient and you're meant to refill with Sprint. By your argument, we should never use Prep for anything but Sprint (FoK is net gain / loss of 0) which any Rogue will disagree with you on. Prep, like Innervate, is a tempo card, it was never meant for card advantage. Also, all decks except for pure Face Hunter (which you rarely see anymore) run at least 1 big minion, Sabotage kills that minion. I've killed a cloaked Antonidas / huge Shade with it so many times and it's saved my life since no other card could kill it.
2. You can cast Sabotage on an empty board. Go ahead an try it.
3. A lot of hunters run Highmane and Boom. At worst you cast it on a smaller minion and get a weapon with it, not every card in your deck needs to be good against one class. Combo it with Prep and you can use it in the early game also. While it's mostly a late game card, it's very playable in the mid-game.
4. I'll take a 9 mana enemy board clear while developing a 4/3 any day; that is such a strong turn especially if you have an existing board. Again with the Prep argument, you're not suggesting Prep is a bad card are you? If anything, the fact that Sabotage can kill a weapon AND a minion means it's more likely to break even on card advantage than most other cards in a Rogue's repertoire. I feel really good if I can get a Prep + Sap / Evis off on T4 with a 4-drop. Rogue doesn't really run out of cards either, against aggro you lose quite often with a decent number of cards in hand, and against mid-range / control you have time to hard cast Sprint if you need to. Other classes run out of cards way before Rogue does (except Lock and heavy cycle decks).
5. Almost all decks carry cards that are at least 5 mana or more, that alone means you spend 4 mana for their 5 mana card. Dr. Boom (you can clear Boom Bots easily with dagger and an existing minion or a board clear) is probably the most common example but there are many others. You can say you'd rather just use BGH, but BGH won't help you kill many other things like a Tirion, Ancient of War, Antonidas, etc. I run BGH and I don't always draw it in time for the Boom, having Sabotage means I have a higher chance of having an answer.
6. Tempo cards are not mutually exclusive with removal cards, if anything they're mostly similar. Trading a 6 drop or higher for 4 mana means you gain tempo by playing Sabotage. Why do you keep saying "late game card" like it's a bad thing (I should also clarify that you can use it in the mid-game just as easily)? Between Backstab, SI, multitude of clears, and Prep, Rogue has a lot of answers for the early game. Decks like Control Warrior, that's a problem. You can't not run late game cards, not every deck you face is aggro, despite how over-exaggerated some people may make it sound like.
7. Doesn't matter, 4-mana hard removal is good. 4-mana hard removal with a potential upside is even better.
Those special effects distracted me from the truth :o.
In all honesty, you almost never actually get to use it for the destroy weapon effect. It's also a 4 mana card so it's really hard to combo.
I think they should lower the mana cost to 3. Destroying a weapon isn't really worth the extra mana. If it was 4 mana it should not be required to combo. I think that's where they made the mistake. If the card was 3 mana, I reckon rogue would become viable as it helps solve their problem with dealing with big minions. Rogue unlike hunter can clear the board and single out a minion for the sabotage.
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First of all it would become strictly better than another class card. Second Sabotage's combo ability takes care of Death's Bites(Helps prevent combos) , Poisoned, or Oiled Daggers, and occasionally Ashbringer. Sabotage while not great is still a fine tool.
While being strictly better than another class card is not unheard of (see: Frostbolt vs. Darkbomb), this is normally balanced by all the other cards a class has. In Rogue's case, with their very powerful AOE and Sap, a 3 mana Sabotage would be ridiculously powerful. As it is I already use it in my Rogue and it's perfectly fine.
It's fine, can be tricky to combo off but if you want the upside you've got to work for it.
Pretty sure people do realize it, which is why (like Deadly Shot) it's rarely run.
The conditions for sabotage to actually destroy a weapon is very hard to create. Weapons are usually played between the 2-4 mana curve so comboing 4 mana at that stage is very difficult or not worth it at all. Also, against grim warrior, there is really no big minion that requires hard removal. You will probably kill an armor smith at best. If the board is floaded with grim patrons, i am sure you want to being clearing the board rather than using sabotage. Also, half of the time grim warriors have no units on the board and play everything at once so you can't even cast sabotage. With rogue (rarely played anyway) and hunter, saving the sabotage to combo is way too slow. It might even be a dead card because you will die if you cast it. Paladin is the only matchup where I see sabotage being used for both effects somewhat sufficiently. The thing is you run the risk of just sabotaging a silverhand recruit. You also have to decide between using it to kill the ashbringer or killing tirion. Long story short, you are using sabotage as a deadly shot most of the time or as a much worst acidic swap ooze.
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Sabotage is an important card.
Gonna have to respectfully disagree with you there based on my extensive play testing (I have over 1k wins with Rogue since GvG probably).
It's not a broken card by any means, but Sap is a very widely played card, and all Rogues know that situation when simply delaying a minion for less mana is not better than outright killing it.
1. Sab+prep means you lose a card. The meta is currently still fast so there is no need for expensive hard removal.
2. I meant you can't cast sabotage without an enemy minion on the board and they generally won't have any at that stage.
3. Yes, it's a late game card according to you so it's a dead card against hunter.
4. I am sure using any spells to remove silverhand recruits aside from fan is optimal. Dark Iron Skulker is 5 mana so to sabotage it will require 9 mana in total. With prep again, it's a 2 for 1. Rogue persistently face the issue of running out of cards and this is one of the reasons.
5. No I don't care about the combo. I am concerned about the fact it's 4 mana. Also, there are mostly no big minions in this meta asides from handlocks.
6. It can be a tempo card but it's mostly a removal card. It can help you maintain your tempo IF you already have board control. You also said it's a late game card.
7. You rarely get 2 for 1.
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To op, Rogue is already viable....see Oil Rogue. 3 mana would OP, considering its combo possibility which is massively powerful against warrior, paladin or rogue. Rogue has a million other powerful removals, so no sabotage is fine.
Sabotage will slow grim down with DB rattle, however considering the classes that actually run weapons and the tempo of running harrison in comparison to this card, i think its just silly.
This card will often just sit in your hand; i think i'd rather have a 2 mana draw and i dont even want one of those.
1. Rogue cards are generally not card efficient, they're tempo efficient and you're meant to refill with Sprint. By your argument, we should never use Prep for anything but Sprint (FoK is net gain / loss of 0) which any Rogue will disagree with you on. Prep, like Innervate, is a tempo card, it was never meant for card advantage. Also, all decks except for pure Face Hunter (which you rarely see anymore) run at least 1 big minion, Sabotage kills that minion. I've killed a cloaked Antonidas / huge Shade with it so many times and it's saved my life since no other card could kill it.
2. You can cast Sabotage on an empty board. Go ahead an try it.
3. A lot of hunters run Highmane and Boom. At worst you cast it on a smaller minion and get a weapon with it, not every card in your deck needs to be good against one class. Combo it with Prep and you can use it in the early game also. While it's mostly a late game card, it's very playable in the mid-game.
4. I'll take a 9 mana enemy board clear while developing a 4/3 any day; that is such a strong turn especially if you have an existing board. Again with the Prep argument, you're not suggesting Prep is a bad card are you? If anything, the fact that Sabotage can kill a weapon AND a minion means it's more likely to break even on card advantage than most other cards in a Rogue's repertoire. I feel really good if I can get a Prep + Sap / Evis off on T4 with a 4-drop. Rogue doesn't really run out of cards either, against aggro you lose quite often with a decent number of cards in hand, and against mid-range / control you have time to hard cast Sprint if you need to. Other classes run out of cards way before Rogue does (except Lock and heavy cycle decks).
5. Almost all decks carry cards that are at least 5 mana or more, that alone means you spend 4 mana for their 5 mana card. Dr. Boom (you can clear Boom Bots easily with dagger and an existing minion or a board clear) is probably the most common example but there are many others. You can say you'd rather just use BGH, but BGH won't help you kill many other things like a Tirion, Ancient of War, Antonidas, etc. I run BGH and I don't always draw it in time for the Boom, having Sabotage means I have a higher chance of having an answer.
6. Tempo cards are not mutually exclusive with removal cards, if anything they're mostly similar. Trading a 6 drop or higher for 4 mana means you gain tempo by playing Sabotage. Why do you keep saying "late game card" like it's a bad thing (I should also clarify that you can use it in the mid-game just as easily)? Between Backstab, SI, multitude of clears, and Prep, Rogue has a lot of answers for the early game. Decks like Control Warrior, that's a problem. You can't not run late game cards, not every deck you face is aggro, despite how over-exaggerated some people may make it sound like.
7. Doesn't matter, 4-mana hard removal is good. 4-mana hard removal with a potential upside is even better.