Hearthpwn

Quote from Phourc >>

It's an interesting discussion what's a fair or acceptable finisher due to so many of them having (due to charge or being spells) little or no way of stopping them.  Obviously as the finisher-ing player, you want something big and terrifying that can't be stopped.  Equally obvious, as the finisher-ed player, you want some way of stopping the combo, and not having your lose condition be "drop below half health".

Now that blizzard has specifically targeted the charge mechanic from Warsong Commander, they've re-opened the discussion of the charge mechanic's place in finisher combos, and the game of hearthstone at large.

It's a really interesting discussion, and it makes me sad so many people went with the much less interesting "Aww, did widdle baby lose to a druid?  QQ me a river, scrub."

 

Quote from Powermonger2567 >>

I think 1 combo is fine, but when you can deal 22 damage with double combo from no board it is to much. It makes it so that any other control deck but warrior or mage will never make it into the meta. The mechanic is not fun to play around. You play a taunt. They deal with it. They get some damage to the face. From turn 10  you have to heal from 22 HP and you know you could die any turn from then.

Quote from hebbe84 >>

I find the whining about FoN+Savage Roar absolutely ridiculous tbh.

Why don't we nerf Alexstrasza while we're at it? One card 15 damage to face, completely unstoppable, OP right? 2xFireball, 12 damage to face, completely unstoppable. Grommash Hellscream, 12 damage from hand with two cards. OP right? I could go on, but I think the point is clear.

So we're down to 12 damage as the #2 spot for two card combos.  Al'Akir the Windlord + Rockbiter Weapon, Grommash Hellscream + Inner Rage and, I guess, Fireball + Fireball, because why not.  These aren't a fair comparison, though because they're a *static* 12 damage.  Have some extra awesomeness on the board?  Who cares!  (Yes Fireball can benefit from spell power but if you've really not had to use a fireball all game, you've controlled the board from turn 4.  Or you're up to Archmage Antonidas shenanigans.  Neither is what I'm trying to talk about here.)

@ Hebi's second post:  That's exactly why I think it's a neat discussion. If Patron's charge is 'bad', is Grom's charge also 'bad'?  If Al + Rockbiter is static, and FoN + Roar scales, can both exist fairly within the same game?  If charge in general is 'bad', is spell face damage also 'bad'?  If so, is it only bad when a freeze mage does it, or should even pyroblast be up for the chopping block?

Obviously the answers change based on who you ask, but it's interesting to think about, haha.

Quote from Arkarion >>

Quote from Smacfest >>

FoN + Savage Roar is the only reason Druid is viable. While I hate losing to it and sometimes wonder if it should be nerfed the class would become shaman tier without it's combo.

 You are WRONG !!!!!

Beast Druid and Ramp Druid are absolutly viable. I should know since I play both.

Quote from Powermonger2567 >>

Alexstrasza is not just deal 15 damage to the face and it has a high mana cost so it hard to play anything else. You wouldnt put Alexstrasza in a aggro deck, so you cant look at it like that. Alexstrasza is also a legendary so there is only 1. If there was only 1 FoN i would be fine with it.

Alexstrasza can't kill you the turn your opponent plays her.
Your opponent can't kill you with two cards the turn after playing Alexstrasza, if she dies.

Savage Roar, however...

Sure, Alex is kind of OP, because she can halve your life total, or heal your opponent for 14.

I think she should've read: "Restore 15 health to a friendly character"

Quote from Phourc >>

Quote from hebbe84 >>

I find the whining about FoN+Savage Roar absolutely ridiculous tbh.

Why don't we nerf Alexstrasza while we're at it? One card 15 damage to face, completely unstoppable, OP right? 2xFireball, 12 damage to face, completely unstoppable. Grommash Hellscream, 12 damage from hand with two cards. OP right? I could go on, but I think the point is clear.

I don't think that's a fair analogy.  Alexstrasza has the errata of not being able to kill a player, and will only do the maximum 15 damage if you've not dealt any damage to them all game.  For a freeze mage that might happen, but again it can't *actually* kill someone.

So we're down to 12 damage as the #2 spot for two card combos.  Al'Akir the Windlord + Rockbiter Weapon, Grommash Hellscream + Inner Rage and, I guess, Fireball + Fireball, because why not.  These aren't a fair comparison, though because they're a *static* 12 damage.  Have some extra awesomeness on the board?  Who cares!  (Yes Fireball can benefit from spell power but if you've really not had to use a fireball all game, you've controlled the board from turn 4.  Or you're up to Archmage Antonidas shenanigans.  Neither is what I'm trying to talk about here.)

I can't think of a two card finisher that does as much as Savage Roar and Force of Nature, with the option to scale up massively if you have board presence.  And there's a reason every single druid deck seems to run 2xShade of Naxxramas, maybe some Stranglethorn Tiger if they're feeling fancy.  Sure, they're *possible* to remove, but your average card won't do it...

what if force of nature's cardtext read :  6 mana ,summon 3 2/4 treants that cant target heroes and die at the end of the turn

then force and roar will be a exellent removal that druid is missing but wont be an OP finisher

Why we are not talking about Bloodlust cause is balanced. Also gives attacks to minions and not to your hero like Savage Roar. If Druid still with these COMBOS we should back with Tinkmaster Overspark(when you can choice what minion to become 1/1 or 5/5 and not random), Nat Pagle(At the end of your turn you have 50% chance to draw an extra card) where the game is more competitive before this new RNG. Blizzard don't want serious game. Everyone can create a card, it just put a Random key in the card text, find a good artwork at WOW: Media compare mana's curve to the current cards in game and its done.

Quote from futhead_Meez >>

what if force of nature's cardtext read :  6 mana ,summon 3 2/4 treants that cant target heroes and die at the end of the turn

then force and roar will be a exellent removal that druid is missing but wont be an OP finisher

Quote from hebbe84 >>

Quote from Powermonger2567 >>

Alexstrasza is not just deal 15 damage to the face and it has a high mana cost so it hard to play anything else. You wouldnt put Alexstrasza in a aggro deck, so you cant look at it like that. Alexstrasza is also a legendary so there is only 1. If there was only 1 FoN i would be fine with it.

 You do realize that Alexstrasza costs exactly as much as the combo right? But yes, you're right, it doesn't only do 15 damage to face, it could also heal you back to 15 from 1. So not only is it capable of dealing ridiculous damage, it can also heal you. OP right?

Until fairly recently, most druids ran only one FoN. Has the card been changed since then? No. It's because of the simple reason that the card was never OP. Running two copies also carries the risk of drawing it too early and it loses you the game. However, as I said earlier, it's very common for at least one part to be used defensively since druids suck at removal and have no real comeback mechanic from a lost board. That is why most people are running two, because you want to be able to use it as removal without throwing away your win condition.

 

Quote from Powermonger2567 >>

Quote from hebbe84 >>

Quote from Powermonger2567 >>

I think 1 combo is fine, but when you can deal 22 damage with double combo from no board it is to much. It makes it so that any other control deck but warrior or mage will never make it into the meta. The mechanic is not fun to play around. You play a taunt. They deal with it. They get some damage to the face. From turn 10  you have to heal from 22 HP and you know you could die any turn from then.

You never play around double combo unless you're winning by a lot. Why? Because it either requires thaurissan on at least two parts of it, or a 4 card combo. As a druid, you might get the double combo off about 1 in 25 games. If you're playing around it on a regular basis, you're doing it wrong.

 Im not talking about Emperor Thaurissan, im talking about Innervate + Savage Roar + Savage Roar + Force of Nature like many druids run. I dont like how it limits other control decks than Warrior and mage. If you play control shaman this is how you die 70% of the time. I know that only few play these control decks but it shouldnt be a limiting factor for 7 other classes.

whats that naxx card that foils all combos with a lil intuitive play?

Quote from Giorgioksk >>

Quote from hebbe84 >>

Quote from Powermonger2567 >>

Alexstrasza is not just deal 15 damage to the face and it has a high mana cost so it hard to play anything else. You wouldnt put Alexstrasza in a aggro deck, so you cant look at it like that. Alexstrasza is also a legendary so there is only 1. If there was only 1 FoN i would be fine with it.

 You do realize that Alexstrasza costs exactly as much as the combo right? But yes, you're right, it doesn't only do 15 damage to face, it could also heal you back to 15 from 1. So not only is it capable of dealing ridiculous damage, it can also heal you. OP right?

Until fairly recently, most druids ran only one FoN. Has the card been changed since then? No. It's because of the simple reason that the card was never OP. Running two copies also carries the risk of drawing it too early and it loses you the game. However, as I said earlier, it's very common for at least one part to be used defensively since druids suck at removal and have no real comeback mechanic from a lost board. That is why most people are running two, because you want to be able to use it as removal without throwing away your win condition.

 

 And players end up using it as a win condition, since they play sticky/token minions and go face with them. After all my druid games, very few have actually used it as removal and those that did, only did it because they had 2 of them in hand. Nobody is using it for removal like mages do with fireball (not so efficient-mana cost). It's pretty difficult to lose the board as a druid (your draws must be awful for that to happen) + if you see that happenning you just punch face hoping to draw into lethal.

After the expansion I don't mind for druids having such a strong combo (it is their only way to play a viable combo deck anyway) but I'd prefer if shamans (for example) had sth similar since they have bloodlust. That way they would be more viable (not like druids but better)...

Quote from Bakelants >>

How is that that druids on the top of the meta since beta and never have goten a single nerf then?

Quote from Powermonger2567 >>

Quote from hebbe84 >>

Quote from Powermonger2567 >>

Quote from hebbe84 >>

Quote from Powermonger2567 >>

I think 1 combo is fine, but when you can deal 22 damage with double combo from no board it is to much. It makes it so that any other control deck but warrior or mage will never make it into the meta. The mechanic is not fun to play around. You play a taunt. They deal with it. They get some damage to the face. From turn 10  you have to heal from 22 HP and you know you could die any turn from then.

You never play around double combo unless you're winning by a lot. Why? Because it either requires thaurissan on at least two parts of it, or a 4 card combo. As a druid, you might get the double combo off about 1 in 25 games. If you're playing around it on a regular basis, you're doing it wrong.

 Im not talking about Emperor Thaurissan, im talking about Innervate + Savage Roar + Savage Roar + Force of Nature like many druids run. I dont like how it limits other control decks than Warrior and mage. If you play control shaman this is how you die 70% of the time. I know that only few play these control decks but it shouldnt be a limiting factor for 7 other classes.

 As I said, a 4 card combo. And it's not like a 4 card combo in mage, that can actually stall games efficiently. If you're playing around double combo on a regular basis, you're playing badly because of how unlikely it is. A reasonably good player can also tell by the opponents plays, what type of hand he has.

"Limits" warrior and mage? So what you want, is that no other deck should be able to counter the decks, or classes, you want to play? So because I like midrange druid, we should nerf all mech decks, tempo mage etc. because those decks are bad matchups for me? Get over yourself please. If a deck has no bad matchup, then the deck is pretty much broken.

The only mage decks that are bad against midrange druid (not aggro druid mind you), are freeze and fatigue mages. Btw, I love freeze mage so, warrior should definitely be nerfed. It's not fair that control warrior exists so that I can't play freeze mage. (Yes, sarcasm)

 I said OTHER control decks than warrior or mage. Since warrior can counter it with armor and mage with ice block. The reason the combo comes up that often is because how control decks play out. You will almost play your whole deck and they will draw into it at some point. You only have a 8 hp margin to play around with. 8 hp is way to little. It is not only control shaman that has this problem and i like to play other control decks aswell. There is no reason for blizzard to make other control decks, since druid will counter them all for now.

@powermonger(don't want to quote that much text):

It's completely irrelevant how good any deck is against a part of another deck. What is relevant is how good a deck as a whole is against another. Druid (any deck) hasn't been the best deck for a long time. But you still want to nerf it to the point where it's completely unplayable on a competitive level, because you want to play decks that aren't viable. Do you really think that is reasonable?

While we're at it, we might as well nerf every aggro deck out there because I would like to play more control.

@are_you

It's almost impossible to "bluff" a double combo without making more sub-optimal plays than you force your opponent to do. I would never play around a double combo unless I'm way ahead. The double combo is so unlikely that it's almost never worth playing around it. The same kind of goes for innervate combo on turn 7, however that one is much easier to predict and is also far more likely most of the time.

Innervate is the only unpredictability that druid has, it is an otherwise very straight forward class. I certainly don't think it's "unfair" in the sense that it needs fixing. And I'm not saying this solely because I like playing druid, I play a lot of paladin and mage as well.

Quote from hebbe84 >>

Quote from Bakelants >>

How is that that druids on the top of the meta since beta and never have goten a single nerf then?

 Well they haven't been on top of the meta since beta, not anywhere close, so that's the short answer to that.

I'm one in favor of nerfing the combo. The problem with the combo is keeping the board clear at all time....and when you do that, you can hardly develop your board. Many times on turn 8, if they played AoL for example, so in order to stay alive next turn you have to be at 22 health (given he didn't play Emperor and/or has no coin + innvervate + 2nd SoR). If you keep playing around the combo, you will eventually lose.

Another problem with the combo is that it just doesn't allow any other Druid archetype decks. The only 2 competitive deck types are aggro & midrange combo druid at the moment and both requires the combo. Any deck that doesn't run them are just not viable.  Druid becomes so dependent on it then they're also brokenly weak without it. It is the reason they haven't been given any viable cards out of the last few expansion/adventure. I really hope Blizz weaken the combo a bit and give them something else....Give Druid a few more cards to build the Super Ramp archetype that works with Aviana and Astral Communion.

Like someone else mentioned few pages back;

with 3 minions on the board: (ignoring actuall stats of these minions)

SR does 8 dmg for 3 mana

Bloodlust does 9 dmg for 5 mana

I tried to look for equal card & mana usage and came up with:

2x SR does 16 dmg for 6 mana (3 minions)

1x BL + 1x rockbiter does 12 dmg for 6 mana (3minions)

so druid has 4 more damage which is increased by +1 dmg each more minion besides those 3 minions. SO personally I would say remove the hero's ATK-DMG part of SR to equal it out.