Hearthpwn

Sorry, lost track halfway through the text wall.  Do you have a suggestion for a fix?  How about we nerf him to a 6/7.  That should end the BGH woes.

Hi there! If you are considering nerfing Dr. Boom, you have to go through all of the options of what you can do to nerf him. :) Also, try to keep your posts short and to the point. Walls of text hurt bro. ^^

Quote from ForecastWeatherMan »

Hi there! If you are considering nerfing Dr. Boom, you have to go through all of the options of what you can do to nerf him. :) Also, try to keep your posts short and to the point. Walls of text hurt bro. ^^

I forgot to adapt this for the Hearthpwn forums. Reddit doesn't usually mind longer reads :p

Quote from Kahgro »

Quote from ForecastWeatherMan »

Hi there! If you are considering nerfing Dr. Boom, you have to go through all of the options of what you can do to nerf him. :) Also, try to keep your posts short and to the point. Walls of text hurt bro. ^^

I forgot to adapt this for the Hearthpwn forums. Reddit doesn't usually mind longer reads :p

I think I'm just a 'to the point' person. Whats wrong, how do i fix it? Leave out why or consequences. That, and the black on gold of this site irritates me. Btw, is there a link somewhere to a 'guide for Reddit noobs'? i joined today. I have no idea what I'm doing.

The slight nerf they would make to Dr. Boom would not make him less playable. Increasing his mana cost is not part of the solution, since at 8-mana he would leave the 7-mana spot empty again. 

I think, as kahgro stated earlier, the main problem with dr. boom is, that you can play him 100% of time, he will never fail to get value, even if your enemy has the direct answer in form of BGH, u still have up to 10 dmg on your board in form of the doom bots.

and that is simply insane. 

now, his 7/7 body allready is "decent" on his own. if u add additional value to him by giving him 2 free 1/1 tokens, that is fine, but (also as stated earlier) this additional stats should come with a draw-back, a negative effect and not with a positive effect on top.

the random dmg to _only_ enemies is what makes this guy insanely strong. if the dmg would change to any charakter, you still have the insane value of 3 bodys, 9/9 stats for 7 mana. in my opinion this still would be too strong... 

you either need to nerf dr. boom stats to make up for his strong positive effect or you need to give him a negative effect for having insane good stats. (and not just a possibly negative effect)

i seriously do not understand how anyone could argue this guy is healthy for the game?

Quote from Necaremus »

I think, as kahgro stated earlier, the main problem with dr. boom is, that you can play him 100% of time, he will never fail to get value, even if your enemy has the direct answer in form of BGH, u still have up to 10 dmg on your board in form of the doom bots.

and that is simply insane. 

now, his 7/7 body allready is "decent" on his own. if u add additional value to him by giving him 2 free 1/1 tokens, that is fine, but (also as stated earlier) this additional stats should come with a draw-back, a negative effect and not with a positive effect on top.

the random dmg to _only_ enemies is what makes this guy insanely strong. if the dmg would change to any charakter, you still have the insane value of 3 bodys, 9/9 stats for 7 mana. in my opinion this still would be too strong... 

you either need to nerf dr. boom stats to make up for his strong positive effect or you need to give him a negative effect for having insane good stats. (and not just a possibly negative effect)

i seriously do not understand how anyone could argue this guy is healthy for the game?

Play Dr. Boom on a fulled board when your health total is at 1 HP... I'm sure Dr. Boom won't bring you any value. It is not an OP card, stop this madness. 

Quote from Remhouse »

Quote from Necaremus »

i seriously do not understand how anyone could argue this guy is healthy for the game?

Play Dr. Boom on a fulled board when your health total is at 1 HP... I'm sure Dr. Boom won't bring you any value. It is not an OP card, stop this madness. 

such argument, much wow

i didn't know how i could oversee this? a lost game is a lost game. damned... how insightful

clearly... if a card cant do instant 30 dmg to win you the game, the card is balanced... i understand it now... thank u very much

Quote from Necaremus »

Quote from Remhouse »

Quote from Necaremus »

i seriously do not understand how anyone could argue this guy is healthy for the game?

Play Dr. Boom on a fulled board when your health total is at 1 HP... I'm sure Dr. Boom won't bring you any value. It is not an OP card, stop this madness. 

such argument, much wow

i didn't know how i could oversee this? a lost game is a lost game. damned... how insightful

clearly... if a card cant do instant 30 dmg to win you the game, the card is balanced... i understand it now... thank u very much

Nope you don't understand it. Unfortunately. Dr. Boom gives you time to react to it. Not like Undertaker or Leeroy or Starving Buzzard. 

Dr. Boom won't get nerfed. Get used to it. He is a balanced card. I'm telling you. Your sarcasm won't change the fact I'm right. You can still try.

for the people who go tl;dr, Kahgro pretty much states that there are two issues with Dr. Boom.

1. Almost all decks that have a slot for a 7-drop will prefer Dr. Boom over other creatures.
2. There is no downside to casting Dr. Boom in any situation, barring being in lethal range.

I see more problems with the card however. On the point about opportunity cost, we have seen decks go out of their way to include Dr. Boom. Aggro decks that would otherwise not go above 5 or 6 mana feel obligated to make room for a Dr. Boom, while at the same time we have seen control decks sometimes drop more expensive threats such as Ragnaros the Firelord, Al'Akir the Windlord and in some cases even Ysera for what should have been a weaker card. Mind you, that even happend before BGH was everywhere.

I personally see Dr. Boom as a card that provides too much value for his cost with seemingly no downside, pushing too many cards out of playability and warping the format.
He is supposedly 'fair' as a neutral card, but he is unhealthy for the game.

Quote from Mister_Smith »

If they do succeed at doing so there won't be a Boom in every deck, just introducing a viable 7 drop that isn't BGH fodder would greatly increase the variety just by allowing players to build a "BGH proof" deck in a meta thats completely overrun by that card but the second such a card exists and manages to push Boom out of certain deck list there will suddenly be no outcry about Dr. Boom being overpowered anymore. 

There is a viable 7 drop that isn't BGH fodder, his name is Troggzor. There is no variety. He doesn't see play, not because he's bad, but because Boom is so much better.

Quote from Kahgro »

DISCLAIMER: This is not a rant/rage thread. This is not a whining thread. I will not be catering to children on either side of the argument. I'm looking forward to decent arguments on both sides. Don't disappoint me Hearthpwn :)

>"We actually don't have any plans now to change Dr. Boom" -Tyler Wilde

> 

 

As most of us already know, Dr. Boom is widely considered the strongest neutral Legendary released in Blizzard's second Hearthstone expansion, GvG.  Some would go as far as say that it is **the** strongest Legendary released in GvG. As a result, Dr. Boom has become an extremely popular card, being used in a vast majority of top tier competitive [decks](https://tempostorm.com/articles/the-meta-snapshot-9-tempo-storms-gvg-ladder-tier-list-the-beginning-of-gvgs-end).

 

Now, the reasons for Dr. Boom's strength are as varied as the amount of decks he's featured in. Perhaps it is because of his extremely efficient 9/9 stats for 7 mana. Perhaps it is because of his instant board presence with 3 bodies. Perhaps it is because of the power of his Boom Bots. Or perhaps it is because he is simply the best neutral 7-drop available in the game. I doubt that anyone would contest that at least 2 or 3 of these reasons have led to Boom's popularity, the question is if they are too much. Whether Dr. Boom should be nerfed.

 

Let's start off with the basics, Dr. Boom is **not** overpowered because he is too good. That is, he is not overpowered simply because of his strength as a card. Card power is relative, it is dependent on the meta and the state of the game. There is nothing inherently bad about having a card like Dr. Boom. In theory, every single person has equal access to Dr. Boom because he is a neutral card, everyone has the same opportunity to play him as everyone else. But to say that this is justification for the balance of any card is a red herring, it assumes that balance is solely dependent on equality of opportunity. For example, imagine there existed a legendary neutral spell:

 

>OpieOP

> 0 mana

>Win this game when you play this card

 

I doubt most people would argue that this card is balanced even though it theoretically offers an equal opportunity for both players to draw it and therefore win the game. This card is overpowered not because it is "unfair", but because it is unhealthy for the game. What is it that makes this card unhealthy you may ask? There are several reasons:

 

* 1) This card is vastly superior to every card that could be ran in its place. It prevents other cards from being played.

* 2) The elimination of other cards leads to stagnation in the game. This card would be seen in every deck.

* 3) It is plain unfun to play against. There is no satisfaction from playing this card other than that of winning, of depending on the RNG of drawing it first. There is no interaction and there is no counterplay. It is plain frustrating, regardless of how "fair" it is.

 

Now while Dr. Boom is obviously not as strong as this card, there are some parallels between the problems that arise with it and what we can see happening with Dr. Boom. The first has been widely discussed and debated. Dr. Boom is simply the best neutral 7 drop in the game. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, there just aren't any "good" 7 drops, Dr. Boom fills that niche. The solution would simply be to add better 7 drops. But there's a problem, there already exists another neutral Legendary 7-drop, how many of you remember [Troggzor the Earthinator]( http://media-hearth.cursecdn.com/avatars/149/139/12272.png)? Remember how overhyped this card was? It was considered the best Legendary in the GvG expansion, what happened? It's quite simple, it cannot compete with Dr. Boom. The key to making most good decks is to make a curve to fit the archetype you are playing. Aggro decks will have low curves, control decks will have high curves. Most decks simply don't have the room to use more than one card for the higher mana slots, a choice has to be made. This results in a phenomenon known as opportunity cost, there is an invisible cost to running every card and that cost is a deckslot, not being able to run a different card in its place. The opportunity cost of running Troggzor is not running Dr. Boom. This means that Troggzor doesn't get played simply because of the existence of Dr. Boom. Why is that? Troggzor definitely has a powerful effect, why is Boom picked over him 99% of the time? This is something that will be discussed later in the post but for now bear with me.

 

As we can see, Dr. Boom has already led to another potentially "good" card not getting played. But having a card not get played in a card game is not inherently bad. Part of a card game is being able to sort out the good cards from the bad cards, it's necessary to create diversity through the lack of uniformity in terms of power level. What is bad is when diversity is systematically killed because of a card. Dr. Boom has lead to this stagnation, there are no signs that Dr. Boom will stop being run given the current or any future meta. Without some sort of change, whether it is an expansion or a patch, Dr. Boom will see play at his current rate indefinitely. What is unique to Dr. Boom is that he has led to a triple stagnation in the game:

* 1) Dr. Boom is in most decks

* 2) In order to deal with Dr. Boom, Big Game Hunter is in most decks

* 3) Because Big Game Hunter is in most decks, cards like Ragnaros the Firelord have been dropped because they cannot afford to die to Big Game Hunter

 

Before GvG, Big Game Hunter did not see nearly the same level of play that it does now. This was most likely due to the fact that it did nothing against the top deck, Miracle Rogue. However, it was used as a tech card in certain match ups especially against Handlock. Big Game Hunter was situationally incorporated into decks in order to gain an advantage over the flavor of the day deck, as are most "healthy" tech cards like The Black Knight or Harisson Jones. What changed is the existence of Dr. Boom. Big Game Hunter offers almost guaranteed valued every game because it is extremely likely to hit, this has made it an auto include in most decks that don't have a more efficient answer to Dr. Boom. What's the problem with having an answer to Dr. Boom every game, you may ask? Simple. While Dr. Boom is still good enough to run even though your opponent is certain to have at least 1 BGH in their deck, other cards like Ragnaros aren't. This BGH interaction has lead to stagnation where there otherwise wouldn't be any. Because of this, decks such as Handlock have fallen extremely low because they often cannot afford the tempo loss that comes after a BGH hit. The same goes for Ragnaros. Only when BGH is no longer an autoinclude will these decks and cards be able to come back, and that will not happen until Dr. Boom's popularity has waned.

 

Now to address the argument that I'm sure has been boiling at the back of your head since my first point, "Why not just introduce new cards that compete with Dr. Boom? Make other good 7-drops that can compete with it. And also make them not susceptible to BGH so other cards like Ragnaros and decks like Handlock can come back." While this may appear like an easy solution, it's simply trying to put a band aid on a mortal wound. This is due to how Legendary cards as a whole are balanced. First and foremost, a clear distinction has to be made, Legendary cards while stronger than other rarity cards, are **NOT** designed to be broken or direct upgrades to cards. They are designed first and foremost to be unique, and their unique effects come with nuances and trade-offs such as:

 

* A Legendary card may have lower stats to make up for a strong effect ie. Black Knight, Harrisson Jones, Sylvannas WIndrunner, Archmage Antonidas etc.

* A Legendary card may have a negative effect to make up for better stats ie. The Beast, Leeroy Jenkins, Millhouse Manastorm etc.

* A Legendary card may depend on factors outside of a player's control such as RNG or an opponent's plays to get value ie. Sneed's Old Shredder, Ragnaros, Tinkmaster Overspark, Vol'jin, Trade Prince Gallywix etc.

* A legendary card may only have value if certain prerequisites are met ie. Edwin VanCleef, Stalagg and Feaugen, Kel'Thuzad etc.

 

The problem with Dr. Boom is that it does not fall into any of those categories. Dr. Boom is a card that is only limited by opportunity cost. There is no trade off to playing Boom. It's a stat efficient body with a positive effect, and even though it is limited by RNG, every outcome is favorable. We all know the jokes about making your own Dr. Boom with War Golem and two Wisps, but the fact is that Boom is literally a direct upgrade. The only two other cards that have been in similar scenarios are Loatheb and 5 mana Sylvannas. They both were efficient bodies that had a positive effect. Sylvannas was nerfed, Loatheb wasn't. What makes Dr. Boom **different** from both of them is that in both cases, a player may hold on to those cards because they are not actually the best play. Holding onto a Sylvannas on turn 6 because the enemy has no minions is not an unusual play. Just like holding Loatheb against a Rogue or against a Druid is not an unusual play. No such holding happens with Dr. Boom, the best way to get value out of him is to play him as soon as possible.

 

That's why Blizzard by no means should design a card that directly challenges or beats Dr. Boom. Dr. Boom is already designed in such a way that it violates Blizzard's design philosophy about the strength of Legendary cards. Designing other situational cards such as Troggzor in an attempt to compete with Boom will simply not be successful, the opportunity cost of not running Dr. Boom is simply too high.  

 

TL;DR Introducing other 7-drops that can compete with Dr. Boom will only lead to a downward spiral of powercreep because Boom is balanced in such a way that it is a direct upgrade to other cards without any consequence or trade-off. This design runs contrary to Blizzard's philosophy and could lead to catastrophic consequences if Blizzard decides to abandon it.

Amazing job. Well stated all the problems with the Boom. They only have two options. Nerf Boom, or give into power creep, and make a bunch more "Booms," aka cards that are OP. Most gamers don't like a meta, in any game, that is constantly power creeping, they really need to nerf him to save us all from the creep.

Quote from Mister_Smith »

Quote from Sisuwolf »

Quote from Mister_Smith »

If they do succeed at doing so there won't be a Boom in every deck, just introducing a viable 7 drop that isn't BGH fodder would greatly increase the variety just by allowing players to build a "BGH proof" deck in a meta thats completely overrun by that card but the second such a card exists and manages to push Boom out of certain deck list there will suddenly be no outcry about Dr. Boom being overpowered anymore. 

There is a viable 7 drop that isn't BGH fodder, his name is Troggzor. There is no variety. He doesn't see play, not because he's bad, but because Boom is so much better.

 

We now could really argue about that. A 7 drop without any immediate impact that doesn't really create good board presence and has an effect specificly designed to counter spell heavy decks. 

In an fast, agressive and rather tempo based meta like we've got at the moment such a card simply isn't all that great. It shines against Oil Rogue but then again chances are he's just going to blow all those little troggs up with a massive Blade Flurry he can certainly be viable in a different kind of meta but at the moment there really isn't a reason to play him over boom. 

Now everyone might come screaming at me "Because Boom is OP you dumbass" but seeing how Troggzor just doesn't fulfill a useful niche in the current state of the game there might just be more complex reasons than just that.

well said. people dont seem to realize that absolute majority of high cost cards just have no imediate impact on the board against the currect fast meta, boom is one of the few exceptions that is actually viable drop that gets atleast some value if he gets BGHd. 

Frankly, anyone whos QQing how Boom is OP because BGH doesnt negate him completely for free with massive tempo boost is just not fit to talk about nerfing cards, boom is one of the the few exceptions that can usually go 1 for 1 with BGH, sky is falling!

Quote from Sare »

Quote from Mister_Smith »

Quote from Sisuwolf »

Quote from Mister_Smith »

If they do succeed at doing so there won't be a Boom in every deck, just introducing a viable 7 drop that isn't BGH fodder would greatly increase the variety just by allowing players to build a "BGH proof" deck in a meta thats completely overrun by that card but the second such a card exists and manages to push Boom out of certain deck list there will suddenly be no outcry about Dr. Boom being overpowered anymore. 

There is a viable 7 drop that isn't BGH fodder, his name is Troggzor. There is no variety. He doesn't see play, not because he's bad, but because Boom is so much better.

 

We now could really argue about that. A 7 drop without any immediate impact that doesn't really create good board presence and has an effect specificly designed to counter spell heavy decks. 

In an fast, agressive and rather tempo based meta like we've got at the moment such a card simply isn't all that great. It shines against Oil Rogue but then again chances are he's just going to blow all those little troggs up with a massive Blade Flurry he can certainly be viable in a different kind of meta but at the moment there really isn't a reason to play him over boom. 

Now everyone might come screaming at me "Because Boom is OP you dumbass" but seeing how Troggzor just doesn't fulfill a useful niche in the current state of the game there might just be more complex reasons than just that.

well said. people dont seem to realize that absolute majority of high cost cards just have no imediate impact on the board against the currect fast meta, boom is one of the few exceptions that is actually viable drop that gets atleast some value if he gets BGHd. 

 

Frankly, anyone whos QQing how Boom is OP because BGH doesnt negate him completely for free with massive tempo boost is just not fit to talk about nerfing cards, boom is one of the the few exceptions that can usually go 1 for 1 with BGH, sky is falling!

 You kind of just defined how he is OP. He is "one of the few exceptions that is actually a viable drop." If he is that much better than the rest of the other Legendary cards, isn't that nearly the definition of OP? Crowding out other cards, because they are not as good as Boom.

Decks that are way too fast for a 7-drop run him. Why is that? It's not because he is a great fit for the deck. It is because he provides too much value to not run him.

If Boom wasn't so strong, faster decks would not run him, and the Midrange and Control decks would actually have to make a choice on which Legendary fits their deck best. Troggzor would be in many more decks.

If Boom was of reasonable strength instead of OP, he would probably still be a great fit for Midrange and Tempo decks, and yet faster decks would switch him out for a lower cost card that makes much more sense in their decks, and heavy Control would run Troggzor much more.

EDIT: As you said part of the problem with the other cards is the fast meta, but a lot of that is because Boom is so strong, and provides so much more tempo(aka speed) than any other card. He is a major reason that the meta is so fast. He destroys control. You can own the board the whole game, then Boom comes and all that work is undone. Many people have just resorted to just getting faster because Boom leaves little room to do much else. He provides so much tempo and so much value, and since so many people are running him, you are nearly forced to run him also, making all decks faster.

you have it backwards. other legendaries arent run because Boom is so good, but because they are usually bad, slow or get no value when BGHd (or some combination of the above) and yes, he is synergic with some aggro decks, since he puts pressure on the board, unlike 90% of legendaries,but face hunter doesnt run him for example. 

I honestly dont get this mentality "we have first strong, kinda slower, all purpose legendary... lets NERF HIM"

this is ridiculous why would you nerf a card that dies on spot,plus before boom there was no decent 7 drop in the game, boom is not that special,most of the work is done by the bombs,which is pure rng and most of the time they hit for low damage,nerfing boom means you take away a seven drop from the game,there are no other seven drops that can replace this card

Quote from Metzelmax »

Quote from Nabseeker »

I think he is fine 7/7 for 7 isnt special and he never survive next turn, so you just get 1/1 that can deal 1-4 dmg which usually isnt a big deal. I think only 1 card need balance now may be 2, 1st is goblin blastmage...

He is not a 7/7 for 7!!!!! THAT IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM! 

He is a 9/9 for 7. Or do you count a Razorfen Hunter, Dragonling Mechanic or Silver Hand Knight only as their main body?

he is not 9/9 for 7.

he is 9/9 and 2-8 dmg for 7... or don't you count dmg effects like Bomb Lobber, Unstable Ghoul, Explosive Sheep, Goblin Blastmage

but yeah... the guy before was even more off than you ;D

Quote from HomerRupaul »

Alright, if he "dies on the spot" as is, why not nerf him to a 7/5? Nothing would change, right?

exactly even if it is 7/5 nothing will change the bombs do the job,you will just kill him with a fireball with out pinging

The thing is that BOOM is very good but not OP. However, his usefulness makes it the only universal choice for the mana your are paying. I think that he is like the old Ragnaros, so it's a way to attract people to legendary crafting. I think that he will fall in the same boat as Pagle and Tinkmaster because he simply has a slot in every deck. 

Ragnaros on the other hand got killed by the rise of aggro and flooded boards. 

Yes he is OP. Yes he needs a nerf.

Now we can discus about the nerf options :

• make it a 5/5 for 7 (like the Sylvanas Windrunner nerf)
• make the bombs 0/1, or 0/2
• make the bombs hit a random target
• make its cost 9