Do you think if you swaped the manathirst and battlecry effects from Astalor Bloodsworn he would be more balanced and still be usable?
I.e. play him on 2 you get the two damage (but not the 5/5 version added to hand). Combined with Brann gives you 4 damage (but only one 5/5 version when meeting the manathirst requirement).
It would still need another change for the 8/8 version to limit the final Brann shenanigins (i.e. keep the manathirst part separate from the battlecry as it is for the other verions). That would still give 24 damage from hand with Brann.
What do you think? Obviously does nothing for shadowstep nonsense but would also help wtih Shaman repeating battlecries and punish the non-manathirst version quite heavily.
I also though about it but I decided that it's bad idea to nerf some cards just because of Brann and Shadowstep. In my opinion it's better to exclude Brann and Shadowstep from the Core set and Standard. Or change them to make less abusive.
In terms of Astalor I agree that it has to be changed because it's strong enough even without Brann. I would like to change 8/8 version to 6 damage (12 damage with manathirst).
But in the same time I suggest to slightly change wording of 2/2 and 5/5 versions to make them less confusing - manathirst effect is obviously has to be a part of battlecry. Here just add 'and' in the beginning of each manathirst effects and you are done
I don't know why we need such strange changes. It makes it a better card for agro deck, because you can now play him as substantial 2 drop on turn 2 OR in slower matchups like a regular card with manathrist effect.
In my opinion, changing mana cost to 3/6/9 mana solves the problem. First of all, it lowers the power of the card a lot. (3 mana 2/2 deal 2 damage is much weaker than 2 mana and so one). Secondly, you cant shadowstep 3 mana version for free now ( you have to pay 1 mana for each shadowstep +2 mana for other versions).Thirdly, it makes bran/anubrakan/atalor combo for druid much weaker ( you need to have extra 4 armour for the combo). And lastly, the number flavour and power of the card keeps at a high level. You can't slam it in every deck, but slower/greedier decks are still gonna play him
I don't know why we need such strange changes. It makes it a better card for agro deck, because you can now play him as substantial 2 drop on turn 2 OR in slower matchups like a regular card with manathrist effect.
In my opinion, changing mana cost to 3/6/9 mana solves the problem. First of all, it lowers the power of the card a lot. (3 mana 2/2 deal 2 damage is much weaker than 2 mana and so one). Secondly, you cant shadowstep 3 mana version for free now ( you have to pay 1 mana for each shadowstep +2 mana for other versions).Thirdly, it makes bran/anubrakan/atalor combo for druid much weaker ( you need to have extra 4 armour for the combo). And lastly, the number flavour and power of the card keeps at a high level. You can't slam it in every deck, but slower/greedier decks are still gonna play him
I was proposing these changes on the assumption that Brann is going to stay until rotation (given he's been problematic for ages and hasn't been changed). I actually dont see these changes as strange at all, and to me it keeps the flavour of the original card intact. If you want the tempo play you lose the late game play.
Imo adding 1 mana to each step probably kills the card in most decks and also feels weird with the manathirst breakpoints (leaving you with a floating mana if you play on manathirst curve). Maybe my change also kills the card, because it effectively adds 2 mana to the cost of the first two stages without adding any mana to the cost (if you're playing him for the 8/8 Astalor).
As for the proposed change making him a "substantial 2 drop" - I'm not sure it does. Would aggro decks run a "1-of" 2/2 legendary just for a measly 2 damage battlecry? They might, but I think it's more likely to be used as a late-game back-up to push over the line, and if they don't play him by turn 4 then functionally it's the same as it currently is.
I think a change to deathrattle would also kill the card in pretty much every deck (except rogue and possibly druid) who would both probably find some other way to abuse it. Xyrella (and multiple res options) could also be busted but that wouldn't matter right now because priest is in a terrible place.
p.s. The interaction with shadowstep is always going to result in multiple Astalors - the problem here is shadowstep, not Astalor, and rogue can never play two 8 mana Astalors in the same turn without a bunch of coins (I think...), so changing the mana cost doesnt matter here either.
There a few ways to get creative and change the card, depending on which interaction you want killed. The easiest way to kill the brann interaction would just be to get rid off all the battlecries and make them manathirsts. Does make the cards weaker to play on curve, but shrug. As for shadowstep, that is a lot harder to kill. You could try something like making the 8 mana one have Manathirst 10: Deal another 8 damage and Astalor dies. That only stops them from shadowstepping the final form, through. You could buff them all by giving each form Can't be targeted by spells, also finally keyword that to Elusive or Shroud or anything. You could make all of them neutral spells, like sunwell, that summon the bodies as vanilla minions. That would destroy all those interactions and open a few new ones, such as the shaman quest and mage owl and that other legendary. More of a sideways move, I suppose.
Why touch the card at all though? It's strong, for sure, but it's not imbalanced or overpowered. Also, it's great in a huge variety of decks, from aggro to control to combo and available to all since it's neutral. It reminds me a bit of Zilliax and I wouldn't change in one bit. Brann, on the other hand...
Do you think if you swaped the manathirst and battlecry effects from Astalor Bloodsworn he would be more balanced and still be usable?
I.e. play him on 2 you get the two damage (but not the 5/5 version added to hand). Combined with Brann gives you 4 damage (but only one 5/5 version when meeting the manathirst requirement).
It would still need another change for the 8/8 version to limit the final Brann shenanigins (i.e. keep the manathirst part separate from the battlecry as it is for the other verions). That would still give 24 damage from hand with Brann.
What do you think? Obviously does nothing for shadowstep nonsense but would also help wtih Shaman repeating battlecries and punish the non-manathirst version quite heavily.
I also though about it but I decided that it's bad idea to nerf some cards just because of Brann and Shadowstep. In my opinion it's better to exclude Brann and Shadowstep from the Core set and Standard. Or change them to make less abusive.
In terms of Astalor I agree that it has to be changed because it's strong enough even without Brann. I would like to change 8/8 version to 6 damage (12 damage with manathirst).
But in the same time I suggest to slightly change wording of 2/2 and 5/5 versions to make them less confusing - manathirst effect is obviously has to be a part of battlecry. Here just add 'and' in the beginning of each manathirst effects and you are done
I don't know why we need such strange changes. It makes it a better card for agro deck, because you can now play him as substantial 2 drop on turn 2 OR in slower matchups like a regular card with manathrist effect.
In my opinion, changing mana cost to 3/6/9 mana solves the problem. First of all, it lowers the power of the card a lot. (3 mana 2/2 deal 2 damage is much weaker than 2 mana and so one). Secondly, you cant shadowstep 3 mana version for free now ( you have to pay 1 mana for each shadowstep +2 mana for other versions).Thirdly, it makes bran/anubrakan/atalor combo for druid much weaker ( you need to have extra 4 armour for the combo). And lastly, the number flavour and power of the card keeps at a high level. You can't slam it in every deck, but slower/greedier decks are still gonna play him
just nerf as death rattle
Just remove brann
I second this
Quote from An1ron >>
I was proposing these changes on the assumption that Brann is going to stay until rotation (given he's been problematic for ages and hasn't been changed). I actually dont see these changes as strange at all, and to me it keeps the flavour of the original card intact. If you want the tempo play you lose the late game play.
Imo adding 1 mana to each step probably kills the card in most decks and also feels weird with the manathirst breakpoints (leaving you with a floating mana if you play on manathirst curve). Maybe my change also kills the card, because it effectively adds 2 mana to the cost of the first two stages without adding any mana to the cost (if you're playing him for the 8/8 Astalor).
As for the proposed change making him a "substantial 2 drop" - I'm not sure it does. Would aggro decks run a "1-of" 2/2 legendary just for a measly 2 damage battlecry? They might, but I think it's more likely to be used as a late-game back-up to push over the line, and if they don't play him by turn 4 then functionally it's the same as it currently is.
I think a change to deathrattle would also kill the card in pretty much every deck (except rogue and possibly druid) who would both probably find some other way to abuse it. Xyrella (and multiple res options) could also be busted but that wouldn't matter right now because priest is in a terrible place.
p.s. The interaction with shadowstep is always going to result in multiple Astalors - the problem here is shadowstep, not Astalor, and rogue can never play two 8 mana Astalors in the same turn without a bunch of coins (I think...), so changing the mana cost doesnt matter here either.
There a few ways to get creative and change the card, depending on which interaction you want killed. The easiest way to kill the brann interaction would just be to get rid off all the battlecries and make them manathirsts. Does make the cards weaker to play on curve, but shrug.
As for shadowstep, that is a lot harder to kill. You could try something like making the 8 mana one have Manathirst 10: Deal another 8 damage and Astalor dies. That only stops them from shadowstepping the final form, through. You could buff them all by giving each form Can't be targeted by spells, also finally keyword that to Elusive or Shroud or anything.
You could make all of them neutral spells, like sunwell, that summon the bodies as vanilla minions. That would destroy all those interactions and open a few new ones, such as the shaman quest and mage owl and that other legendary. More of a sideways move, I suppose.
Why touch the card at all though? It's strong, for sure, but it's not imbalanced or overpowered. Also, it's great in a huge variety of decks, from aggro to control to combo and available to all since it's neutral. It reminds me a bit of Zilliax and I wouldn't change in one bit. Brann, on the other hand...
that makes a lot of sense too. you should not see 3 of the same character at the same time