Preface - I like control decks and I like "big" decks.
The title says it all. I think he's a terrible design. If you get to play him on turn 4 you can massively overpower your opponent to the point where it just doesn't feel fair. If you don't draw him you're often just stuck with a dead hand and are pretty much guaranteed to lose, particularly with the deck design he forces you to make.
These types of cards basically create a coin-flip game state. It's not fun to play against when your opponent draws it, and it's not fun to play with when you dont.
If "big" decks become viable in the meta he's going to be the new Prince Keleseth. If not he wont ever see play so whats the point of him existing (I realise this part of the argument can be made for a fair few cards these days).
He feels to me like a sticking plaster attempt at bringing control decks back into a game where quests exists (which wont work as the quests are far too consistent).
Try to overcome its inconsistency with deck building? Card draw/tradeable cards/tutors etc. It's a problem you have to solve and it's the reason its power level is justifiable.
My point was obvious - that it's a badly designed card, and I agree that celestial alignment is similar in that regard. I really wish that Blizz would just have a fresh look at the game they've created and think a bit more creatively about the new cards they create to cater for all deck designs (control, aggro etc.) rather than just printing coin-flippy cards to cover up for other badly designed cards.
We already have a literal "win the game" card - how soon before we get a perfectly balanced "Destroy one hero at random" card.
We have at least two of them (remember Mechathun?), and both are hardly playable at all. What Blizzard really did is killing the control. It doesn't exist anymore. Some control decks were fun, but they are in general boring and make match duration unpredictable, so Blizzard just improves experience for new players.
As usually druid playing person, vanndar seems to me as a ramp dudu thing (which I like). In other words, something to have in a deck where before turn 4 (or another later if you don't mulligan vanndar or get it beforeso) you can have board presence from spells or gain mana in high quantities early on, also having enough non minion survival. With the new character that gives you up to 20 mana for druid it may be insane, it may also not work, we'll find out soon. But definitely something I would try. The other one really doesn't seem to me as huge improvement in tempo for the aggro decks I play so still think vanndar is the better card with a possibility to be broken. Somehow reminds me of the carnivorous cube in cubelock on voidealkers on turn 6 out of faceless manipulator, doesn't it :)
Blizzard never really accepted that keleseth was 'badly designed' they just accepted that it made it made people salty. From their point of view it enabled Timmy to win games without directly saying "Timmy wins the game", based purely on RNG. Hence we see it back in the game again, and yes, on steroids.
Constructed hearthstone will never, ever move away from this design style. It has been clear now for some time. No amount of complaining will change it, even if it did turn out to be in many competitive decks and so nerfed in the future, it would be only temporary until they print more cards just like it, or atleast cards that have a similar result on the game. They want idiots to win 48% matches. That is just the way it is.
This is why Battlegrounds and Arena are better modes.
I also don't agree keleseth was broken by 2 reasons. A it used to be used only in aggro spiteful druid, also pirate warrior with pre-nerf patches, both not so difficultly controlled by spiteful priest, taunt lock, comparable with the odd paladin in aggro and so on. Cube lock back when keleseth was viable was way more broken, OTK secret mage with antonidas was also worse.
*the second one - keleseth wasn't usable in other aggro decks since most of theit key early game, spells and secrets cost 2. It was just that people in the beginning didn't firstly expect his effect, then they were salty to netdeck against him unsuccessfully with insta concedes seeing keleseth, then people simply learned to control this one. All in the same meta.
Over time there have been way more annoying things to face against - maly rouge, mill-(place a class that used it), mage, armour warror, otk priest, wow i got back to naxx.
tldr imo keleseth is just a deckbuff for a zoo deck as vanndar is a tempo buff for a ramp deck. It is what it is, as any, will have time to eventually appear as broken and then you will deal with it. Broken was patches pre-nerf, for example.
Considering the state of the meta… this card is well within the boundaries of buffoonery. I took a ThicCorrupt deck to Legend already. Faced a lot of Quest Mage and Warrior… both decks have their moments of ridiculously OP moments as well. In fact, I would venture to say that if you’re winning without guaranteed Vanndar draws (which happens) then that my friend is real skill and not random BS.
Preface - I like control decks and I like "big" decks.
The title says it all. I think he's a terrible design. If you get to play him on turn 4 you can massively overpower your opponent to the point where it just doesn't feel fair. If you don't draw him you're often just stuck with a dead hand and are pretty much guaranteed to lose, particularly with the deck design he forces you to make.
These types of cards basically create a coin-flip game state. It's not fun to play against when your opponent draws it, and it's not fun to play with when you dont.
If "big" decks become viable in the meta he's going to be the new Prince Keleseth. If not he wont ever see play so whats the point of him existing (I realise this part of the argument can be made for a fair few cards these days).
He feels to me like a sticking plaster attempt at bringing control decks back into a game where quests exists (which wont work as the quests are far too consistent).
Keleseth highroll on steroids
Just like Celestial Alignment, but twice less probable. What's your point?
Try to overcome its inconsistency with deck building? Card draw/tradeable cards/tutors etc. It's a problem you have to solve and it's the reason its power level is justifiable.
My point was obvious - that it's a badly designed card, and I agree that celestial alignment is similar in that regard. I really wish that Blizz would just have a fresh look at the game they've created and think a bit more creatively about the new cards they create to cater for all deck designs (control, aggro etc.) rather than just printing coin-flippy cards to cover up for other badly designed cards.
We already have a literal "win the game" card - how soon before we get a perfectly balanced "Destroy one hero at random" card.
We have at least two of them (remember Mechathun?), and both are hardly playable at all. What Blizzard really did is killing the control. It doesn't exist anymore. Some control decks were fun, but they are in general boring and make match duration unpredictable, so Blizzard just improves experience for new players.
Rod of roasting from Yogg-Saron, Master of Fate has that covered.
As usually druid playing person, vanndar seems to me as a ramp dudu thing (which I like). In other words, something to have in a deck where before turn 4 (or another later if you don't mulligan vanndar or get it beforeso) you can have board presence from spells or gain mana in high quantities early on, also having enough non minion survival. With the new character that gives you up to 20 mana for druid it may be insane, it may also not work, we'll find out soon. But definitely something I would try. The other one really doesn't seem to me as huge improvement in tempo for the aggro decks I play so still think vanndar is the better card with a possibility to be broken. Somehow reminds me of the carnivorous cube in cubelock on voidealkers on turn 6 out of faceless manipulator, doesn't it :)
Blizzard never really accepted that keleseth was 'badly designed' they just accepted that it made it made people salty. From their point of view it enabled Timmy to win games without directly saying "Timmy wins the game", based purely on RNG. Hence we see it back in the game again, and yes, on steroids.
Constructed hearthstone will never, ever move away from this design style. It has been clear now for some time. No amount of complaining will change it, even if it did turn out to be in many competitive decks and so nerfed in the future, it would be only temporary until they print more cards just like it, or atleast cards that have a similar result on the game. They want idiots to win 48% matches. That is just the way it is.
This is why Battlegrounds and Arena are better modes.
I also don't agree keleseth was broken by 2 reasons. A it used to be used only in aggro spiteful druid, also pirate warrior with pre-nerf patches, both not so difficultly controlled by spiteful priest, taunt lock, comparable with the odd paladin in aggro and so on. Cube lock back when keleseth was viable was way more broken, OTK secret mage with antonidas was also worse.
*the second one - keleseth wasn't usable in other aggro decks since most of theit key early game, spells and secrets cost 2. It was just that people in the beginning didn't firstly expect his effect, then they were salty to netdeck against him unsuccessfully with insta concedes seeing keleseth, then people simply learned to control this one. All in the same meta.
Over time there have been way more annoying things to face against - maly rouge, mill-(place a class that used it), mage, armour warror, otk priest, wow i got back to naxx.
tldr imo keleseth is just a deckbuff for a zoo deck as vanndar is a tempo buff for a ramp deck. It is what it is, as any, will have time to eventually appear as broken and then you will deal with it. Broken was patches pre-nerf, for example.
Considering the state of the meta… this card is well within the boundaries of buffoonery. I took a ThicCorrupt deck to Legend already. Faced a lot of Quest Mage and Warrior… both decks have their moments of ridiculously OP moments as well. In fact, I would venture to say that if you’re winning without guaranteed Vanndar draws (which happens) then that my friend is real skill and not random BS.
Keleseth wasn't broken? I don't think I ever beat a Rogue that played him on 2.
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