I'm sorry but being able to discount your entire deck by 2 mana is just too big of an advantage. And when it happens early in successive turns its downright filthy.
This card needs nerfed into the ground. Should cost 3-4 mana minimum and i'm not exaggerating.
To think a while back we had to play Emperor Thaurrasin just to get a 1 mana discount of things in our hand, and it was backbreaking at times to the opponent. And Thaurassin wasnt played early. At the very least turn 5 with coin.
Now you're telling me on turn 1 the Mage can just reduce the cost of her ENTIRE deck by one? GTFO devs
Cards like this should only be able to be played on turns where the loss in tempo for you can sometimes be devastating enough to mean good game. At 2 mana, it just doesn't do that. It's busted in current Standard.
Incanter's Flow has been a problem for Mage for a while now. Since it came out. They thought upping the mana cost of Refreshing Spring Water by a measly ONE mana crystal would be enough to offset the power. Meta players just laughed at the useless gesture and shrugged it off.
Flow needs to be nerfed big time and RSW still needs further nerfs. With mage having so much draw abilities in their pool how in the hell are they not gonna have design limits and problems for decent cheap spells in future sets?
Mana cheat and tons of cheap draw is just a huge problem in the game right now, probably the biggest problem. Specifically in mage, rogue, and warlock. It's just too much, most classes can't keep up
mana cheat cards have been a big big problem almost every time they printed one. yet team 5 NEVER ever learn their lesson... this expansion has the biggest amount of new mana cheat cards ever. and huge surprise: IT'S A PROBLEM. again. who could've known???
what really annoys me is that because of the ever increasing amount of face damage from hand and mana cheat cards the games get shorter and shorter every expansion now. just looked at my decktracker stats. average game length in 2016: 11.3 turns. in 2018: 9.9 turns. in 2020: 9.8 turns. in 2021: 8.6 turns. this expansion: 7.4 turns.
To me the card seems an action from devs to try and compensate mages ability to respond to early aggression from other classes. Lots of mage spells are/were not usable until starting around 3 to 5 mana, and as a single spell has become less and less able to respond to early aggro (cue death rattle demon hunter and the like), mages have needed faster ability to use multiple spells. They have since added to this with mostly cheap spells in the latest expansion that can help deal with early minions.
Any tweaks to it need to be done without destroying mages' ability to survive the increasingly aggressive decks that have been created for other classes.
Perhaps changing it to only discount Arcane spells might be enough to hurt it but still make it usable?
Not a bad suggestion, I mean then at least it mitigates the huge amounts of potential burst burn per turn since Arcane spells have limited cards that can target face. Only issue with that is draw spells tend to be Arcane. So they still cycle through decks quickly.
Mana cheating was used to be the thing for Druid only.....
After the arrival of Demon Hunter and Ashes of Outland expansion, everything went burst as the power of mana cheating went viral to Mage, Rogue, Hunter, Paladin, Shaman, Warlock, and even Priest.......
IMO, DH is the culprit class that promotes the idea of mana cheating and influence this strategy to make other classes powerful....
Perhaps changing it to only discount Arcane spells might be enough to hurt it but still make it usable?
I posted a thread with nerf suggestions for problem cards earlier today and this was my main idea for Incater’s Flow, as well. Another person had suggested that it shouldn’t be able to lower the cost of cards to zero, which i also thought was a great idea. Now if only the devs would ever give either of those suggestions a shot is a different story
Incanter's Flow was the first good card printed for spell mage, it's the OG. It enabled the deck to come back from doing nothing on turn 2, and even sometimes get ahead later in the game due to the discounts. It isn't the problem, because back then, the deck wasn't good.
Now that the deck has more card draw and face damage spells, the deck is good. But you're telling me the gun salesman (Incanter's Flow) is the murderer, not the guy shooting the gun (excessive card draw and face damage spells).
Nope, the nerfs need to be on card draw and damage spells, not incanter's flow.
Nerfing it will kill the archetype, which isn't all that oppressive as stats demonstrate. And that may be fine but what else can Mage play that is competitive? I will personally try out some ideas but they involve playing high-cost cards and we know where we are with that.
And there aren't any alternatives for this style of play, maybe spell-heavy Quest Shaman could scratch that itch - maybe. So you'd be removing an archetype a lot of people are enjoying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. Not a good move if I was Blizz.
Mana cheat and tons of cheap draw is just a huge problem in the game right now, probably the biggest problem. Specifically in mage, rogue, and warlock. It's just too much, most classes can't keep up
Warlock and Rogue will keep being a problem as long as Gadgetzan Auctioneer keeps working the way it is.
Eh it's definitely powerful but that card alone isn't what is messing up standard. It's the lack of minions
The lack of minions comes from decks that play barely any minions or none being far too succesful for minion-base decks to compete. In case of mage, this means way too much draw, damage, and Incanter's Flow.
Cards like Ignite are defintiively just as toxic as Incanter's Flow (even Jade Idol starts looking better)... but I guess they'll go after Incanter because it fucks up wild too.
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I'm sorry but being able to discount your entire deck by 2 mana is just too big of an advantage. And when it happens early in successive turns its downright filthy.
This card needs nerfed into the ground. Should cost 3-4 mana minimum and i'm not exaggerating.
To think a while back we had to play Emperor Thaurrasin just to get a 1 mana discount of things in our hand, and it was backbreaking at times to the opponent. And Thaurassin wasnt played early. At the very least turn 5 with coin.
Now you're telling me on turn 1 the Mage can just reduce the cost of her ENTIRE deck by one? GTFO devs
Cards like this should only be able to be played on turns where the loss in tempo for you can sometimes be devastating enough to mean good game. At 2 mana, it just doesn't do that. It's busted in current Standard.
all mana discount was a mistake
Mistake
Agreed, mana discount is very powerful, should have a huge overload effect to ruin the tempo of who cast it.
"Mistakes were made"
Incanter's Flow has been a problem for Mage for a while now. Since it came out. They thought upping the mana cost of Refreshing Spring Water by a measly ONE mana crystal would be enough to offset the power. Meta players just laughed at the useless gesture and shrugged it off.
Flow needs to be nerfed big time and RSW still needs further nerfs. With mage having so much draw abilities in their pool how in the hell are they not gonna have design limits and problems for decent cheap spells in future sets?
Mana cheat and tons of cheap draw is just a huge problem in the game right now, probably the biggest problem. Specifically in mage, rogue, and warlock. It's just too much, most classes can't keep up
Should be 4 mana at MINIMUM.
Perhaps changing it to only discount Arcane spells might be enough to hurt it but still make it usable?
Eh it's definitely powerful but that card alone isn't what is messing up standard. It's the lack of minions
mana cheat cards have been a big big problem almost every time they printed one. yet team 5 NEVER ever learn their lesson... this expansion has the biggest amount of new mana cheat cards ever. and huge surprise: IT'S A PROBLEM. again. who could've known???
what really annoys me is that because of the ever increasing amount of face damage from hand and mana cheat cards the games get shorter and shorter every expansion now. just looked at my decktracker stats. average game length in 2016: 11.3 turns. in 2018: 9.9 turns. in 2020: 9.8 turns. in 2021: 8.6 turns. this expansion: 7.4 turns.
To me the card seems an action from devs to try and compensate mages ability to respond to early aggression from other classes. Lots of mage spells are/were not usable until starting around 3 to 5 mana, and as a single spell has become less and less able to respond to early aggro (cue death rattle demon hunter and the like), mages have needed faster ability to use multiple spells. They have since added to this with mostly cheap spells in the latest expansion that can help deal with early minions.
Any tweaks to it need to be done without destroying mages' ability to survive the increasingly aggressive decks that have been created for other classes.
Not a bad suggestion, I mean then at least it mitigates the huge amounts of potential burst burn per turn since Arcane spells have limited cards that can target face. Only issue with that is draw spells tend to be Arcane. So they still cycle through decks quickly.
Mana cheating was used to be the thing for Druid only.....
After the arrival of Demon Hunter and Ashes of Outland expansion, everything went burst as the power of mana cheating went viral to Mage, Rogue, Hunter, Paladin, Shaman, Warlock, and even Priest.......
IMO, DH is the culprit class that promotes the idea of mana cheating and influence this strategy to make other classes powerful....
I posted a thread with nerf suggestions for problem cards earlier today and this was my main idea for Incater’s Flow, as well. Another person had suggested that it shouldn’t be able to lower the cost of cards to zero, which i also thought was a great idea. Now if only the devs would ever give either of those suggestions a shot is a different story
Incanter's Flow was the first good card printed for spell mage, it's the OG. It enabled the deck to come back from doing nothing on turn 2, and even sometimes get ahead later in the game due to the discounts. It isn't the problem, because back then, the deck wasn't good.
Now that the deck has more card draw and face damage spells, the deck is good. But you're telling me the gun salesman (Incanter's Flow) is the murderer, not the guy shooting the gun (excessive card draw and face damage spells).
Nope, the nerfs need to be on card draw and damage spells, not incanter's flow.
There. Mind changed :)
Nerf to 3 mana and call it a day!
We need to have a serious fucking discussion about Mage.
Nerfing it will kill the archetype, which isn't all that oppressive as stats demonstrate. And that may be fine but what else can Mage play that is competitive? I will personally try out some ideas but they involve playing high-cost cards and we know where we are with that.
And there aren't any alternatives for this style of play, maybe spell-heavy Quest Shaman could scratch that itch - maybe. So you'd be removing an archetype a lot of people are enjoying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. Not a good move if I was Blizz.
Warlock and Rogue will keep being a problem as long as Gadgetzan Auctioneer keeps working the way it is.
The lack of minions comes from decks that play barely any minions or none being far too succesful for minion-base decks to compete. In case of mage, this means way too much draw, damage, and Incanter's Flow.
Cards like Ignite are defintiively just as toxic as Incanter's Flow (even Jade Idol starts looking better)... but I guess they'll go after Incanter because it fucks up wild too.
Click to see my Hearthstone projects: