You can discuss word order and context until the cows come home, we all know that overloading a mana crystal regardless of how it happens should trigger unbound elemental. Anything else is just a level of nit-picking from team 5 that is not evident anywhere else in the game. Shamans have it hard enough without this bullshit.
No actually, English reading comprehension dictates that we know it should not work. So everyone who thinks they know, is simply wrong from a literary standpoint and maybe should go back to school.
I agree there's no reason for it not to synergies, however, the wording makes it clear it should not work in its current state.
Public Mod Note
(xskarma):
Post was Warned for Flaming
You can discuss word order and context until the cows come home, we all know that overloading a mana crystal regardless of how it happens should trigger unbound elemental. Anything else is just a level of nit-picking from team 5 that is not evident anywhere else in the game. Shamans have it hard enough without this bullshit.
No actually, English reading comprehension dictates that we know it should not work. So everyone who thinks they know, is simply wrong from a literary standpoint and maybe should go back to school.
I agree there's no reason for it not to synergies, however, the wording makes it clear it should not work in its current state.
It seems like you are just looking for ways to insult people, an aspiration that was doomed to fail when you tried to apply the term "literary standpoint" to a Hearthstone card.
In fact, the rules of English do not give us any insight into the game's definitions. In fact, by any reasonable application of the rules of English, Guidance is a "card with Overload," as it is a card, and it does have "Overload" printed on it. Arguing against those facts based on the syntax and semantics of English is simply ridiculous.
However, because Hearthstone does not explicitly define terms like "Overload card" and "card with Overload," there is actually no way to know how cards with vague wording like Unbound Elemental are going to interact without trying them out. You may make an educated guess based on other Hearthstone cards with similar wording, but you cannot possibly predict the exact interaction based solely on the rules of English.
At any rate, what we've learned from these two cards is that, as defined by the game, "card with Overload" seems to mean exactly: "card that causes Overload whenever it's played," not just sometimes, and not at the player's discretion.
You can discuss word order and context until the cows come home, we all know that overloading a mana crystal regardless of how it happens should trigger unbound elemental. Anything else is just a level of nit-picking from team 5 that is not evident anywhere else in the game. Shamans have it hard enough without this bullshit.
No actually, English reading comprehension dictates that we know it should not work. So everyone who thinks they know, is simply wrong from a literary standpoint and maybe should go back to school.
I agree there's no reason for it not to synergies, however, the wording makes it clear it should not work in its current state.
It seems like you are just looking for ways to insult people, an aspiration that was doomed to fail when you tried to apply the term "literary standpoint" to a Hearthstone card.
In fact, the rules of English do not give us any insight into the game's definitions. In fact, by any reasonable application of the rules of English, Guidance is a "card with Overload," as it is a card, and it does have "Overload" printed on it. Arguing against those facts based on the syntax and semantics of English is simply ridiculous.
However, because Hearthstone does not explicitly define terms like "Overload card" and "card with Overload," there is actually no way to know how cards with vague wording like Unbound Elemental are going to interact without trying them out. You may make an educated guess based on other Hearthstone cards with similar wording, but you cannot possibly predict the exact interaction based solely on the rules of English.
At any rate, what we've learned from these two cards is that, as defined by the game, "card with Overload" seems to mean exactly: "card that causes Overload whenever it's played," not just sometimes, and not at the player's discretion.
Good post, thank you!
It is also obvious that the text on Unbound Elemental was made before conditional overload was considered an option.
Updating more cards retroactively would not hurt, especially for cards in the Core set.
Ultimately this is a flaw in the wording of Unbound Elemental and the functionality of Guidance. My guess is, since Overload is an option you can opt into, Unbound doesn't check to see if it was an Overload card. Unbound probably triggers on play when a card is played that Overloads you, it won't check as a card is resolving its effect and happens to Overload you.
Unbound should have its text changed to match Tunnel Trogg - that way the effect is more consistent across cards that are similar. Also, I think making it a 2 mana 2/4 would have been a better change than a 3 mana 3/4. But that's just my opinion.
Does Runic Carvings trigger it? That's another card that HAS an Overload component, but it's a choice and not a default aspect of the card. Which, if that's how they've programmed it, seems a bit silly. Why not just have it be "When you Overload" or something.
It helps to clarify the difference between something like The Amazing Reno - where your side of the board can do something that causes you to overload, but it doesn't trigger effects for Unbound.
You can discuss word order and context until the cows come home, we all know that overloading a mana crystal regardless of how it happens should trigger unbound elemental. Anything else is just a level of nit-picking from team 5 that is not evident anywhere else in the game. Shamans have it hard enough without this bullshit.
No actually, English reading comprehension dictates that we know it should not work. So everyone who thinks they know, is simply wrong from a literary standpoint and maybe should go back to school.
I agree there's no reason for it not to synergies, however, the wording makes it clear it should not work in its current state.
It seems like you are just looking for ways to insult people, an aspiration that was doomed to fail when you tried to apply the term "literary standpoint" to a Hearthstone card.
In fact, the rules of English do not give us any insight into the game's definitions. In fact, by any reasonable application of the rules of English, Guidance is a "card with Overload," as it is a card, and it does have "Overload" printed on it. Arguing against those facts based on the syntax and semantics of English is simply ridiculous.
However, because Hearthstone does not explicitly define terms like "Overload card" and "card with Overload," there is actually no way to know how cards with vague wording like Unbound Elemental are going to interact without trying them out. You may make an educated guess based on other Hearthstone cards with similar wording, but you cannot possibly predict the exact interaction based solely on the rules of English.
At any rate, what we've learned from these two cards is that, as defined by the game, "card with Overload" seems to mean exactly: "card that causes Overload whenever it's played," not just sometimes, and not at the player's discretion.
By your logic, Tunnel Trogg should be counted as an Overload card, as it is a card, and it says Overload on it.
An Overload card is a card that has Overload as a cost to play it. That's it. The Overload on Guidance is NOT a cost for the card. It is a cost to choose both options.
There have been similar cards for years. The easiest example is cards like Da Undatakah or Mok'Nathal Lion. They don't trigger cards like Undertaker despite being cards with Deathrattle, because they are not Deathrattle cards.
Or, you can use the example of Conjurer's Calling on a minion that had its cost raised by something like Freezing Trap or Blackjack Stunner. It will still turn, say, Jandice into two 6 drops even if her cost was 7 or 8, because she cost 8, but was not an 8 cost card.
The condition is what happens at the moment the card is played. When Guidance is played, it does NOT overload you. Therefore, not an Overload card.
But to make it easier, I'll spell it out for you.
Scenario 1: you cast Lightning Bolt. Unbound Elemental gains stats right here, because at this point the card is guaranteed to overload.
Lightning Bolt deals damage; at the same time, Lightning Bolt Overloads 1.
Spell resolves.
Scenario 2: you cast Guidance. At this point, whether or not it will Overload has not been determined.
Guidance casts and generates two spells
You choose both and Overload
Since the Overload did not happen at the same time the card was played, you do not gain stats on Unbound. It's called missing the timing and is the same reason that, say, Avenge doesn't trigger in the middle of Mask of Cthun.
The timing can be confirmed by Counterspell; if an Overload spell is Countered, Unbound still gains the stats, because it checks at the moment of play, NOT when the spell effect resolves.
According to the wording, Guidance is not a card with Overload. It overloads one mana, but it shouldn't count for the elemental.
This logic has already been shown to be inconsistent with other mechanics. For example Rocket Backpacks and Special Delivery. Literally every first minion you play gets a copy summoned, even though it's not technically a "Rush minion," as stated on the card. I know there was at least one similar example in constructed play as well but just can't recall it at the moment.
You can discuss word order and context until the cows come home, we all know that overloading a mana crystal regardless of how it happens should trigger unbound elemental. Anything else is just a level of nit-picking from team 5 that is not evident anywhere else in the game. Shamans have it hard enough without this bullshit.
No actually, English reading comprehension dictates that we know it should not work. So everyone who thinks they know, is simply wrong from a literary standpoint and maybe should go back to school.
I agree there's no reason for it not to synergies, however, the wording makes it clear it should not work in its current state.
It seems like you are just looking for ways to insult people, an aspiration that was doomed to fail when you tried to apply the term "literary standpoint" to a Hearthstone card.
In fact, the rules of English do not give us any insight into the game's definitions. In fact, by any reasonable application of the rules of English, Guidance is a "card with Overload," as it is a card, and it does have "Overload" printed on it. Arguing against those facts based on the syntax and semantics of English is simply ridiculous.
However, because Hearthstone does not explicitly define terms like "Overload card" and "card with Overload," there is actually no way to know how cards with vague wording like Unbound Elemental are going to interact without trying them out. You may make an educated guess based on other Hearthstone cards with similar wording, but you cannot possibly predict the exact interaction based solely on the rules of English.
At any rate, what we've learned from these two cards is that, as defined by the game, "card with Overload" seems to mean exactly: "card that causes Overload whenever it's played," not just sometimes, and not at the player's discretion.
By your logic, Tunnel Trogg should be counted as an Overload card, as it is a card, and it says Overload on it.
An Overload card is a card that has Overload as a cost to play it. That's it. The Overload on Guidance is NOT a cost for the card. It is a cost to choose both options.
There have been similar cards for years. The easiest example is cards like Da Undatakah or Mok'Nathal Lion. They don't trigger cards like Undertaker despite being cards with Deathrattle, because they are not Deathrattle cards.
Or, you can use the example of Conjurer's Calling on a minion that had its cost raised by something like Freezing Trap or Blackjack Stunner. It will still turn, say, Jandice into two 6 drops even if her cost was 7 or 8, because she cost 8, but was not an 8 cost card.
The condition is what happens at the moment the card is played. When Guidance is played, it does NOT overload you. Therefore, not an Overload card.
But to make it easier, I'll spell it out for you.
Scenario 1: you cast Lightning Bolt. Unbound Elemental gains stats right here, because at this point the card is guaranteed to overload.
Lightning Bolt deals damage; at the same time, Lightning Bolt Overloads 1.
Spell resolves.
Scenario 2: you cast Guidance. At this point, whether or not it will Overload has not been determined.
Guidance casts and generates two spells
You choose both and Overload
Since the Overload did not happen at the same time the card was played, you do not gain stats on Unbound. It's called missing the timing and is the same reason that, say, Avenge doesn't trigger in the middle of Mask of Cthun.
The timing can be confirmed by Counterspell; if an Overload spell is Countered, Unbound still gains the stats, because it checks at the moment of play, NOT when the spell effect resolves.
I think we all know this by now. The way obtained deathrattles work is not intuitive either, but we know now that having obtained a deathrattle at some point is different from being a deathrattle card.
Also, don't pretend like the game is always consistant, and that every interaction makes sense: I just tested playing Twilight Geomancer with C'Thun in my hand. C'Thun is now technically not a "taunt minion", but rather obtained taunt from another card before he was even played. Bulk Up, Into the Fray and Feat of Strength should not buff him, right? Guess what, they all do.
Secret Passage was actually patched so drawn and played Invoke cards would trigger Galakrond, the Nightmare. Then, I tested Secret Passage with C'Thun in hand, then drew and played some buffs like Disciple of C'Thun. Unlike Invoke, the buffers state specifically "wherever it is". When I got my C'Thun back in hand, it was NOT buffed, so being inside the Secret Passage does not count as "wherever"...
I think we all know this by now. The way obtained deathrattles work is not intuitive either, but we know now that having obtained a deathrattle at some point is different from being a deathrattle card.
Also, don't pretend like the game is always consistant, and that every interaction makes sense: I just tested playing Twilight Geomancer with C'Thun in my hand. C'Thun is now technically not a "taunt minion", but rather obtained taunt from another card before he was even played. Bulk Up, Into the Fray and Feat of Strength should not buff him, right? Guess what, they all do.
Secret Passage was actually patched so drawn and played Invoke cards would trigger Galakrond, the Nightmare. Then, I tested Secret Passage with C'Thun in hand, then drew and played some buffs like Disciple of C'Thun. Unlike Invoke, the buffers state specifically "wherever it is". When I got my C'Thun back in hand, it was NOT buffed, so being inside the Secret Passage does not count as "wherever"...
In this example, your specific C'Thun, at this time, IS a "taunt minion." It was granted the Taunt condition by an external force, yes, but it is both in your hand and has Taunt. It is, therefore, temporarily a Taunt minion, even if that condition is not intrinsic to the card. I'd be interested to see whether Hadronox would resummon him under these conditions. I would expect him to, because C'Thun, specifically, is an exception to a lot of Hearthstone's usual zonal rules. Since C'Thun's buffs are all worded as "wherever it is," those buffs are persistent in a way that Mok'Nathal Lion's is not.
I think we all know this by now. The way obtained deathrattles work is not intuitive either, but we know now that having obtained a deathrattle at some point is different from being a deathrattle card.
Also, don't pretend like the game is always consistant, and that every interaction makes sense: I just tested playing Twilight Geomancer with C'Thun in my hand. C'Thun is now technically not a "taunt minion", but rather obtained taunt from another card before he was even played. Bulk Up, Into the Fray and Feat of Strength should not buff him, right? Guess what, they all do.
Secret Passage was actually patched so drawn and played Invoke cards would trigger Galakrond, the Nightmare. Then, I tested Secret Passage with C'Thun in hand, then drew and played some buffs like Disciple of C'Thun. Unlike Invoke, the buffers state specifically "wherever it is". When I got my C'Thun back in hand, it was NOT buffed, so being inside the Secret Passage does not count as "wherever"...
In this example, your specific C'Thun, at this time, IS a "taunt minion." It was granted the Taunt condition by an external force, yes, but it is both in your hand and has Taunt. It is, therefore, temporarily a Taunt minion, even if that condition is not intrinsic to the card. I'd be interested to see whether Hadronox would resummon him under these conditions. I would expect him to, because C'Thun, specifically, is an exception to a lot of Hearthstone's usual zonal rules. Since C'Thun's buffs are all worded as "wherever it is," those buffs are persistent in a way that Mok'Nathal Lion's is not.
I just checked, as I was curious as well. Hadronox does NOT resurrect C'Thun as a "tauntminion" after it was buffed with Twilight Geomancer. My only explaination is that "taunt" is counted in hand in the same way as on the board, but I have a lingering feeling the handbuffs were hard-coded for C'Thun specifically, just as with Invoke and Galakrond, the Nightmare.
EDIT: It does not matter if you play a 2nd Twilight Geomancer while he is in the graveyard or wherever else. Hadronox won't resurrect C'Thun no matter what.
Where things got really interresting was how buffs from Embiggen interact with the C'Thun specific buffs, the buff animation, conditions (like Klaxxi Amber-Weaver), and reshuffeling with Doomcaller. Good luck predicting how that plays out;-)
You can discuss word order and context until the cows come home, we all know that overloading a mana crystal regardless of how it happens should trigger unbound elemental. Anything else is just a level of nit-picking from team 5 that is not evident anywhere else in the game. Shamans have it hard enough without this bullshit.
No actually, English reading comprehension dictates that we know it should not work. So everyone who thinks they know, is simply wrong from a literary standpoint and maybe should go back to school.
I agree there's no reason for it not to synergies, however, the wording makes it clear it should not work in its current state.
It seems like you are just looking for ways to insult people, an aspiration that was doomed to fail when you tried to apply the term "literary standpoint" to a Hearthstone card.
In fact, the rules of English do not give us any insight into the game's definitions. In fact, by any reasonable application of the rules of English, Guidance is a "card with Overload," as it is a card, and it does have "Overload" printed on it. Arguing against those facts based on the syntax and semantics of English is simply ridiculous.
However, because Hearthstone does not explicitly define terms like "Overload card" and "card with Overload," there is actually no way to know how cards with vague wording like Unbound Elemental are going to interact without trying them out. You may make an educated guess based on other Hearthstone cards with similar wording, but you cannot possibly predict the exact interaction based solely on the rules of English.
At any rate, what we've learned from these two cards is that, as defined by the game, "card with Overload" seems to mean exactly: "card that causes Overload whenever it's played," not just sometimes, and not at the player's discretion.
By your logic, Tunnel Trogg should be counted as an Overload card, as it is a card, and it says Overload on it.
An Overload card is a card that has Overload as a cost to play it. That's it. The Overload on Guidance is NOT a cost for the card. It is a cost to choose both options.
There have been similar cards for years. The easiest example is cards like Da Undatakah or Mok'Nathal Lion. They don't trigger cards like Undertaker despite being cards with Deathrattle, because they are not Deathrattle cards.
Or, you can use the example of Conjurer's Calling on a minion that had its cost raised by something like Freezing Trap or Blackjack Stunner. It will still turn, say, Jandice into two 6 drops even if her cost was 7 or 8, because she cost 8, but was not an 8 cost card.
The condition is what happens at the moment the card is played. When Guidance is played, it does NOT overload you. Therefore, not an Overload card.
But to make it easier, I'll spell it out for you.
Scenario 1: you cast Lightning Bolt. Unbound Elemental gains stats right here, because at this point the card is guaranteed to overload.
Lightning Bolt deals damage; at the same time, Lightning Bolt Overloads 1.
Spell resolves.
Scenario 2: you cast Guidance. At this point, whether or not it will Overload has not been determined.
Guidance casts and generates two spells
You choose both and Overload
Since the Overload did not happen at the same time the card was played, you do not gain stats on Unbound. It's called missing the timing and is the same reason that, say, Avenge doesn't trigger in the middle of Mask of Cthun.
The timing can be confirmed by Counterspell; if an Overload spell is Countered, Unbound still gains the stats, because it checks at the moment of play, NOT when the spell effect resolves.
I think we all know this by now. The way obtained deathrattles work is not intuitive either, but we know now that having obtained a deathrattle at some point is different from being a deathrattle card.
Also, don't pretend like the game is always consistant, and that every interaction makes sense: I just tested playing Twilight Geomancer with C'Thun in my hand. C'Thun is now technically not a "taunt minion", but rather obtained taunt from another card before he was even played. Bulk Up, Into the Fray and Feat of Strength should not buff him, right? Guess what, they all do.
Secret Passage was actually patched so drawn and played Invoke cards would trigger Galakrond, the Nightmare. Then, I tested Secret Passage with C'Thun in hand, then drew and played some buffs like Disciple of C'Thun. Unlike Invoke, the buffers state specifically "wherever it is". When I got my C'Thun back in hand, it was NOT buffed, so being inside the Secret Passage does not count as "wherever"...
C'thun had Taunt at the time the other cards were played. That still makes it consistent.
For the other interaction, Secret Passage removes the cards that it is holding from the game until end of turn. Therefore, they cannot be affected by anything. Galakrond still works because his trigger is "Invoke was used x amount of times this game". Other cards that work the same way would be like Arcane Giants. Even if you had one, and removed it via Secret Passage, it would still show a cost decrease if you cast more spells, because it's an external counter.
C'Thun buffers only work if C'Thun is in a place that currently exists, because they apply the buff to him directly. Hence why they don't work on C'Thun in your collection so that you can Discover him later with the buffed stats.
As I said, the rule is "does it meet the condition at the moment the effect activates". Cthun with taunt in your hand meets that condition. Galakrond removed via Secret Passage meets that condition, as Galakrond does not exist at the time, but it's tracked by an external timer. Cthun removed via Secret Passage does not, because it needs to be targeted and cannot because it does not exist in the game
Nice try, but no. There IS an "external timer" for the c'thun buffs, and it is shown in the buff animation, which is only active if C'Thun was in your starting deck. While C'Thun is "inside" Secret Passage, the buff animation is still shown, but you don't get the buffs when he is returned. He is a Schroedinger's C'Thun, existing and not existing at once... because of an interaction the programmers did not account for.
Anyway, my hole point with this was showing that the difference between "taunt minion" and "minion with taunt" is not always clear, just as "overload card" and "card overloading your mana crystals" isn't either.
With even more deck/hand interactions likely to be printed in the future, the older cards with outdated text, like Unbound Elemental need to be updated!
This is a super weird one and I can't think of any other card with the same wording.
If this were the intended interaction, the language usually used would be 'After you play an Overload card...'. However, this is written 'After you play a card with Overload'.
We have plenty of examples of the text for this kind of expected interaction other card types with: N'Zoth, the Corruptor
I would argue that because of previous wording precedents Guidance is a card with overload, but it is not an overload card, and that therefore the current interaction is not the intended one.
You can discuss word order and context until the cows come home, we all know that overloading a mana crystal regardless of how it happens should trigger unbound elemental. Anything else is just a level of nit-picking from team 5 that is not evident anywhere else in the game. Shamans have it hard enough without this bullshit.
No actually, English reading comprehension dictates that we know it should not work. So everyone who thinks they know, is simply wrong from a literary standpoint and maybe should go back to school.
I agree there's no reason for it not to synergies, however, the wording makes it clear it should not work in its current state.
It seems like you are just looking for ways to insult people, an aspiration that was doomed to fail when you tried to apply the term "literary standpoint" to a Hearthstone card.
In fact, the rules of English do not give us any insight into the game's definitions. In fact, by any reasonable application of the rules of English, Guidance is a "card with Overload," as it is a card, and it does have "Overload" printed on it. Arguing against those facts based on the syntax and semantics of English is simply ridiculous.
However, because Hearthstone does not explicitly define terms like "Overload card" and "card with Overload," there is actually no way to know how cards with vague wording like Unbound Elemental are going to interact without trying them out. You may make an educated guess based on other Hearthstone cards with similar wording, but you cannot possibly predict the exact interaction based solely on the rules of English.
At any rate, what we've learned from these two cards is that, as defined by the game, "card with Overload" seems to mean exactly: "card that causes Overload whenever it's played," not just sometimes, and not at the player's discretion.
By your logic, Tunnel Trogg should be counted as an Overload card, as it is a card, and it says Overload on it.
An Overload card is a card that has Overload as a cost to play it. That's it. The Overload on Guidance is NOT a cost for the card. It is a cost to choose both options.
There have been similar cards for years. The easiest example is cards like Da Undatakah or Mok'Nathal Lion. They don't trigger cards like Undertaker despite being cards with Deathrattle, because they are not Deathrattle cards.
Or, you can use the example of Conjurer's Calling on a minion that had its cost raised by something like Freezing Trap or Blackjack Stunner. It will still turn, say, Jandice into two 6 drops even if her cost was 7 or 8, because she cost 8, but was not an 8 cost card.
The condition is what happens at the moment the card is played. When Guidance is played, it does NOT overload you. Therefore, not an Overload card.
But to make it easier, I'll spell it out for you.
Scenario 1: you cast Lightning Bolt. Unbound Elemental gains stats right here, because at this point the card is guaranteed to overload.
Lightning Bolt deals damage; at the same time, Lightning Bolt Overloads 1.
Spell resolves.
Scenario 2: you cast Guidance. At this point, whether or not it will Overload has not been determined.
Guidance casts and generates two spells
You choose both and Overload
Since the Overload did not happen at the same time the card was played, you do not gain stats on Unbound. It's called missing the timing and is the same reason that, say, Avenge doesn't trigger in the middle of Mask of Cthun.
The timing can be confirmed by Counterspell; if an Overload spell is Countered, Unbound still gains the stats, because it checks at the moment of play, NOT when the spell effect resolves.
By this logic Crossroads Gossiper shouldn't trigger when he's ressurected by Redemption since the card has alreasy been played when he comes to life. Guess what, it does trigger.
By this logic Crossroads Gossiper shouldn't trigger when he's ressurected by Redemption since the card has already been played when he comes to life. Guess what, it does trigger.
I agree. Every other card I can think of doesn't trigger off of the effect that summoned it.
By this logic Crossroads Gossiper shouldn't trigger when he's ressurected by Redemption since the card has already been played when he comes to life. Guess what, it does trigger.
I agree. Every other card I can think of doesn't trigger off of the effect that summoned it.
This specific one is because Crossroads Gossiper has an "after" timing trigger, and not a "when" timing trigger. You're right that it's a bit of an edge case, because there aren't many interactions like this. But part of Redemption's effect is to summon a minion. If that minion is Gossiper, then Gossiper is on the board before Redemption "finishes" casting. Then, since Gossiper is already there, it checks to see if any friendly Secrets have been revealed. Redemption has been revealed, hooray! It's buff time.
If Gossiper had a "when" or "whenever" trigger, its check would occur earlier in the sequence. Specifically because this is an "after" effect, Gossiper can gossip about themselves. ("Oh my Yogg, can you believe I died? For real. Totally dead, but I'm like, back now. Seriously.")
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
No actually, English reading comprehension dictates that we know it should not work. So everyone who thinks they know, is simply wrong from a literary standpoint and maybe should go back to school.
I agree there's no reason for it not to synergies, however, the wording makes it clear it should not work in its current state.
It seems like you are just looking for ways to insult people, an aspiration that was doomed to fail when you tried to apply the term "literary standpoint" to a Hearthstone card.
In fact, the rules of English do not give us any insight into the game's definitions. In fact, by any reasonable application of the rules of English, Guidance is a "card with Overload," as it is a card, and it does have "Overload" printed on it. Arguing against those facts based on the syntax and semantics of English is simply ridiculous.
However, because Hearthstone does not explicitly define terms like "Overload card" and "card with Overload," there is actually no way to know how cards with vague wording like Unbound Elemental are going to interact without trying them out. You may make an educated guess based on other Hearthstone cards with similar wording, but you cannot possibly predict the exact interaction based solely on the rules of English.
At any rate, what we've learned from these two cards is that, as defined by the game, "card with Overload" seems to mean exactly: "card that causes Overload whenever it's played," not just sometimes, and not at the player's discretion.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Its working as intented, please do read the Tunnel Trog and Unbound Elemental text, maybe ull get the difference.
Good post, thank you!
It is also obvious that the text on Unbound Elemental was made before conditional overload was considered an option.
Updating more cards retroactively would not hurt, especially for cards in the Core set.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
game being bugged is the new blizzard standard
Ultimately this is a flaw in the wording of Unbound Elemental and the functionality of Guidance. My guess is, since Overload is an option you can opt into, Unbound doesn't check to see if it was an Overload card. Unbound probably triggers on play when a card is played that Overloads you, it won't check as a card is resolving its effect and happens to Overload you.
Unbound should have its text changed to match Tunnel Trogg - that way the effect is more consistent across cards that are similar. Also, I think making it a 2 mana 2/4 would have been a better change than a 3 mana 3/4. But that's just my opinion.
please don't bully my son
It helps to clarify the difference between something like The Amazing Reno - where your side of the board can do something that causes you to overload, but it doesn't trigger effects for Unbound.
By your logic, Tunnel Trogg should be counted as an Overload card, as it is a card, and it says Overload on it.
An Overload card is a card that has Overload as a cost to play it. That's it. The Overload on Guidance is NOT a cost for the card. It is a cost to choose both options.
There have been similar cards for years. The easiest example is cards like Da Undatakah or Mok'Nathal Lion. They don't trigger cards like Undertaker despite being cards with Deathrattle, because they are not Deathrattle cards.
Or, you can use the example of Conjurer's Calling on a minion that had its cost raised by something like Freezing Trap or Blackjack Stunner. It will still turn, say, Jandice into two 6 drops even if her cost was 7 or 8, because she cost 8, but was not an 8 cost card.
The condition is what happens at the moment the card is played. When Guidance is played, it does NOT overload you. Therefore, not an Overload card.
But to make it easier, I'll spell it out for you.
Scenario 1: you cast Lightning Bolt. Unbound Elemental gains stats right here, because at this point the card is guaranteed to overload.
Lightning Bolt deals damage; at the same time, Lightning Bolt Overloads 1.
Spell resolves.
Scenario 2: you cast Guidance. At this point, whether or not it will Overload has not been determined.
Guidance casts and generates two spells
You choose both and Overload
Since the Overload did not happen at the same time the card was played, you do not gain stats on Unbound. It's called missing the timing and is the same reason that, say, Avenge doesn't trigger in the middle of Mask of Cthun.
The timing can be confirmed by Counterspell; if an Overload spell is Countered, Unbound still gains the stats, because it checks at the moment of play, NOT when the spell effect resolves.
This logic has already been shown to be inconsistent with other mechanics. For example Rocket Backpacks and Special Delivery. Literally every first minion you play gets a copy summoned, even though it's not technically a "Rush minion," as stated on the card. I know there was at least one similar example in constructed play as well but just can't recall it at the moment.
I think we all know this by now. The way obtained deathrattles work is not intuitive either, but we know now that having obtained a deathrattle at some point is different from being a deathrattle card.
Also, don't pretend like the game is always consistant, and that every interaction makes sense:
I just tested playing Twilight Geomancer with C'Thun in my hand. C'Thun is now technically not a "taunt minion", but rather obtained taunt from another card before he was even played. Bulk Up, Into the Fray and Feat of Strength should not buff him, right? Guess what, they all do.
Secret Passage was actually patched so drawn and played Invoke cards would trigger Galakrond, the Nightmare. Then, I tested Secret Passage with C'Thun in hand, then drew and played some buffs like Disciple of C'Thun. Unlike Invoke, the buffers state specifically "wherever it is". When I got my C'Thun back in hand, it was NOT buffed, so being inside the Secret Passage does not count as "wherever"...
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
In this example, your specific C'Thun, at this time, IS a "taunt minion." It was granted the Taunt condition by an external force, yes, but it is both in your hand and has Taunt. It is, therefore, temporarily a Taunt minion, even if that condition is not intrinsic to the card. I'd be interested to see whether Hadronox would resummon him under these conditions. I would expect him to, because C'Thun, specifically, is an exception to a lot of Hearthstone's usual zonal rules. Since C'Thun's buffs are all worded as "wherever it is," those buffs are persistent in a way that Mok'Nathal Lion's is not.
I just checked, as I was curious as well. Hadronox does NOT resurrect C'Thun as a "taunt minion" after it was buffed with Twilight Geomancer. My only explaination is that "taunt" is counted in hand in the same way as on the board, but I have a lingering feeling the handbuffs were hard-coded for C'Thun specifically, just as with Invoke and Galakrond, the Nightmare.
EDIT: It does not matter if you play a 2nd Twilight Geomancer while he is in the graveyard or wherever else. Hadronox won't resurrect C'Thun no matter what.
Where things got really interresting was how buffs from Embiggen interact with the C'Thun specific buffs, the buff animation, conditions (like Klaxxi Amber-Weaver), and reshuffeling with Doomcaller. Good luck predicting how that plays out;-)
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
C'thun had Taunt at the time the other cards were played. That still makes it consistent.
For the other interaction, Secret Passage removes the cards that it is holding from the game until end of turn. Therefore, they cannot be affected by anything. Galakrond still works because his trigger is "Invoke was used x amount of times this game". Other cards that work the same way would be like Arcane Giants. Even if you had one, and removed it via Secret Passage, it would still show a cost decrease if you cast more spells, because it's an external counter.
C'Thun buffers only work if C'Thun is in a place that currently exists, because they apply the buff to him directly. Hence why they don't work on C'Thun in your collection so that you can Discover him later with the buffed stats.
As I said, the rule is "does it meet the condition at the moment the effect activates". Cthun with taunt in your hand meets that condition. Galakrond removed via Secret Passage meets that condition, as Galakrond does not exist at the time, but it's tracked by an external timer. Cthun removed via Secret Passage does not, because it needs to be targeted and cannot because it does not exist in the game
Nice try, but no. There IS an "external timer" for the c'thun buffs, and it is shown in the buff animation, which is only active if C'Thun was in your starting deck. While C'Thun is "inside" Secret Passage, the buff animation is still shown, but you don't get the buffs when he is returned. He is a Schroedinger's C'Thun, existing and not existing at once... because of an interaction the programmers did not account for.
Anyway, my hole point with this was showing that the difference between "taunt minion" and "minion with taunt" is not always clear, just as "overload card" and "card overloading your mana crystals" isn't either.
With even more deck/hand interactions likely to be printed in the future, the older cards with outdated text, like Unbound Elemental need to be updated!
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
This is a super weird one and I can't think of any other card with the same wording.
If this were the intended interaction, the language usually used would be 'After you play an Overload card...'. However, this is written 'After you play a card with Overload'.
We have plenty of examples of the text for this kind of expected interaction other card types with:
N'Zoth, the Corruptor
Corrupt the Waters
Ossirian Tear
Armagedillo
I would argue that because of previous wording precedents Guidance is a card with overload, but it is not an overload card, and that therefore the current interaction is not the intended one.
By this logic Crossroads Gossiper shouldn't trigger when he's ressurected by Redemption since the card has alreasy been played when he comes to life. Guess what, it does trigger.
I agree. Every other card I can think of doesn't trigger off of the effect that summoned it.
This specific one is because Crossroads Gossiper has an "after" timing trigger, and not a "when" timing trigger. You're right that it's a bit of an edge case, because there aren't many interactions like this. But part of Redemption's effect is to summon a minion. If that minion is Gossiper, then Gossiper is on the board before Redemption "finishes" casting. Then, since Gossiper is already there, it checks to see if any friendly Secrets have been revealed. Redemption has been revealed, hooray! It's buff time.
If Gossiper had a "when" or "whenever" trigger, its check would occur earlier in the sequence. Specifically because this is an "after" effect, Gossiper can gossip about themselves. ("Oh my Yogg, can you believe I died? For real. Totally dead, but I'm like, back now. Seriously.")