It's way too overpowered, mage can literally draw its whole deck in 1 turn
I'm not sure what kind of Mage is able to run a ten-card deck. That's an interesting strategy! How does it win?
But seriously, while I do think this card is a bit strong and may become a problem in the future, right now there are far worse problems in the meta. Complaining about Refreshing Spring Water is like getting mad that the car next to you is an ugly color as you sit in a 3-hour traffic jam. (The traffic jam is Paladins.)
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Oh no drew 4 cards that may or may not help me in the game I had plenty of garbage cards drawn with rsw . Mage is strictly at disadvantage with no minions but hey let’s nerf it more lol.
Oh no drew 4 cards that may or may not help me in the game I had plenty of garbage cards drawn with rsw . Mage is strictly at disadvantage with no minions but hey let’s nerf it more lol.
I mean if you had plenty of garbage cards drawn with spring water.......Maybe dont put garbage cards in your deck, Thats a you problem, I think what you meant to say was, I had plenty of draw that did'nt help me at all from spring waters but if the cards you drew were actually garbage thats a you problem and has nothing at all to do with spring waters, If you play DoL and then spring waters and the random cards you got were garbage.......Again not a spring waters problem.
Just because you've had games where spring waters has'nt drawn you what you need does'nt mean anything, A rogue can play secret passage and draw completely dead, Get zero card generation and just draw 2x shadowstep and sinister strike and cloak of shadows or blackjack stunners with no secrets in play on no enemy minions on the board depending on the rogue deck, Does that make those cards all garbage too?
You can draw bad in any game but if you're playing a actual deck then not one of those cards in your deck can be considered garbage and if it is then that is on you and maybe you should think about cutting those cards from your deck, It might be useless at the time but thats not the same as garbage, "I drew bad when i play spring waters" is not a valid reason as to why spring waters is fine, Now i'm not complaining about spring waters i think its a card that is good but not game breaking but i'm not sure bad draws is really a arguement as to why its not busted when literally every deck has bad draws.
"Several times" Ah yeah sure, several times you went second or got Nature Studies and drew a specific series of 3 cards in the first 9 cards of your deck. Show me the match recordings. Just because 5% of the time you can get a combo off doesnt make it a good combo.
The second one is the hunter beast buff I assume. Conditioning can't be activated until t5, and the beast buff isnt active until t4 unless you go second and coin into a 3 drop to go super ham on it for some reason.
And Kodobane can whiff if you draw him later in the game and have already drawn into all your 1, 2, or 3 drop spells, it has nothing to do with cards available to the class.
Spring Water is OP because of the text of the card. It doesn't matter if there are decks that counter it, anything that provides free value with zero input or cost from the player is bad.
Every other card you mentioned requires you to use resources to play it, and makes you more vulnerable; your turn 3 Glowfly Swarm for example leaves you open to Consecrate if youre second, Lightning Storm, School Spirits, etc. Nofin requires you to setup the board. Kodobane makes you play a garbage 5 drop for extra value.
Refreshing Spring Water has no downside in any deck that it's included in. Worst case scenario, you pay 4 mana to draw 2; best case scenario you get back 2 mana to draw 2. It isn't just good in 1 deck, it's a staple in all mage decks and will be until it rotates out.
If you can't understand that, then you don't know anything about how card games work whatsoever.
I'll skip the odds of pulling off the Glowfly Swarm because it's leading the discussion astray, but they're not as bad as you think (drawing 9 cards is 30% of your deck plus mulligan after all).
You seem to consider running little to no minions as a negigible cost for refreshing spring water, but take that same card and put it in a class like Paladin or Demon Hunter and it would never see any amount of play.
If you believe that a 4 mana draw 2 is a passable potential downside in today's Hearthstone then you clearly have no grasp of the game. That is a straight up game losing scenario. As for the potential to gain mana from it, that requires not only the deckbuilding restrictions to be met, but also a setup (very much like the cards i brought up, for which you are still missing the point). It is obvious to me that if any card was a problem in this deck that would be Incanter's Flow, but i doubt that the deck actually needs nerfs.
"Several times" Ah yeah sure, several times you went second or got Nature Studies and drew a specific series of 3 cards in the first 9 cards of your deck. Show me the match recordings. Just because 5% of the time you can get a combo off doesnt make it a good combo.
The second one is the hunter beast buff I assume. Conditioning can't be activated until t5, and the beast buff isnt active until t4 unless you go second and coin into a 3 drop to go super ham on it for some reason.
And Kodobane can whiff if you draw him later in the game and have already drawn into all your 1, 2, or 3 drop spells, it has nothing to do with cards available to the class.
Spring Water is OP because of the text of the card. It doesn't matter if there are decks that counter it, anything that provides free value with zero input or cost from the player is bad.
Every other card you mentioned requires you to use resources to play it, and makes you more vulnerable; your turn 3 Glowfly Swarm for example leaves you open to Consecrate if youre second, Lightning Storm, School Spirits, etc. Nofin requires you to setup the board. Kodobane makes you play a garbage 5 drop for extra value.
Refreshing Spring Water has no downside in any deck that it's included in. Worst case scenario, you pay 4 mana to draw 2; best case scenario you get back 2 mana to draw 2. It isn't just good in 1 deck, it's a staple in all mage decks and will be until it rotates out.
If you can't understand that, then you don't know anything about how card games work whatsoever.
I'll skip the odds of pulling off the Glowfly Swarm because it's leading the discussion astray, but they're not as bad as you think (drawing 9 cards is 30% of your deck plus mulligan after all).
You seem to consider running little to no minions as a negigible cost for refreshing spring water, but take that same card and put it in a class like Paladin or Demon Hunter and it would never see any amount of play.
If you believe that a 4 mana draw 2 is a passable potential downside in today's Hearthstone then you clearly have no grasp of the game. That is a straight up game losing scenario. As for the potential to gain mana from it, that requires not only the deckbuilding restrictions to be met, but also a setup (very much like the cards i brought up, for which you are still missing the point). It is obvious to me that if any card was a problem in this deck that would be Incanter's Flow, but i doubt that the deck actually needs nerfs.
>take that same card and put it in a class like Pally or DH and it wouldn't see play
Uhm... so what? We're talking about the current scenario not some random what-if. If Tickatus was in Mage or Pally it probably wouldn't see play either. Same with, say, Liadrin in any non Libram deck. Or Y'shaarj in a non Corrupt deck. A card being bad outside of its archetype is totally irrelevant to its power level.
Once again, the issue is not that Spring Water is a 4 mana draw 2, it is that in reality it will almost NEVER be a 4 mana draw 2. Without any other modifiers, it will always be a 0 mana draw 2 in spell mage, and will be a 2 mana draw 2 about 80% of the time in generic mage, and 90% of the time in spell damage or ping mage which only run 6-8 minions. That is exactly my point. If it were nerfed to 1 mana per spell drawn, then it WOULD be in the position that you're describing and would be balanced. It would be cheaper than AI in a spell mage deck, and would be a competitive amount of draw power in a regular mage deck.
The fact that it can generate mana when it's discounted hints at the actual problem in RSW archetypes, the discounting. Flow is what I'd look at first.
The fact that it can generate mana when it's discounted hints at the actual problem in RSW archetypes, the discounting. Flow is what I'd look at first.
That's an interesting point, because the problem is actually that Spell Mage has exceeded a critical mass of discounting effects, and they all work together to create a disgusting monster.
Incanter's Flow discounts the whole deck.
Deck of Lunacy discounts the whole deck.
Refreshing Spring Water discounts itself while drawing cards that were discounted by the other two.
Mana discounts and mana cheating have always caused the biggest problems in Hearthstone. Recruit was an utter nightmare. Spell Mage is basically a recruit deck for spells instead of minions.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
>take that same card and put it in a class like Pally or DH and it wouldn't see play
Uhm... so what? We're talking about the current scenario not some random what-if. If Tickatus was in Mage or Pally it probably wouldn't see play either. Same with, say, Liadrin in any non Libram deck. Or Y'shaarj in a non Corrupt deck. A card being bad outside of its archetype is totally irrelevant to its power level.
Once again, the issue is not that Spring Water is a 4 mana draw 2, it is that in reality it will almost NEVER be a 4 mana draw 2. Without any other modifiers, it will always be a 0 mana draw 2 in spell mage, and will be a 2 mana draw 2 about 80% of the time in generic mage, and 90% of the time in spell damage or ping mage which only run 6-8 minions. That is exactly my point. If it were nerfed to 1 mana per spell drawn, then it WOULD be in the position that you're describing and would be balanced. It would be cheaper than AI in a spell mage deck, and would be a competitive amount of draw power in a regular mage deck.
Don't try to add percentages to your comments because it's frankly embarrassing.
In a deck with 6 minions the first RSW has a 37.7% chance of finding at least one minion. In one with 8, the chance is 48.3%.
Also, you are under the mistaken impression that draw spells should be compared to Arcane Intellect, which is no longer correct. The current power of all playable draw spells is higher than Arcane Intellect and the only reason mage decks run it are the discounts available.
I'm not sure what kind of Mage is able to run a ten-card deck. That's an interesting strategy! How does it win?
But seriously, while I do think this card is a bit strong and may become a problem in the future, right now there are far worse problems in the meta. Complaining about Refreshing Spring Water is like getting mad that the car next to you is an ugly color as you sit in a 3-hour traffic jam. (The traffic jam is Paladins.)
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Oh no drew 4 cards that may or may not help me in the game I had plenty of garbage cards drawn with rsw . Mage is strictly at disadvantage with no minions but hey let’s nerf it more lol.
I mean if you had plenty of garbage cards drawn with spring water.......Maybe dont put garbage cards in your deck, Thats a you problem, I think what you meant to say was, I had plenty of draw that did'nt help me at all from spring waters but if the cards you drew were actually garbage thats a you problem and has nothing at all to do with spring waters, If you play DoL and then spring waters and the random cards you got were garbage.......Again not a spring waters problem.
Just because you've had games where spring waters has'nt drawn you what you need does'nt mean anything, A rogue can play secret passage and draw completely dead, Get zero card generation and just draw 2x shadowstep and sinister strike and cloak of shadows or blackjack stunners with no secrets in play on no enemy minions on the board depending on the rogue deck, Does that make those cards all garbage too?
You can draw bad in any game but if you're playing a actual deck then not one of those cards in your deck can be considered garbage and if it is then that is on you and maybe you should think about cutting those cards from your deck, It might be useless at the time but thats not the same as garbage, "I drew bad when i play spring waters" is not a valid reason as to why spring waters is fine, Now i'm not complaining about spring waters i think its a card that is good but not game breaking but i'm not sure bad draws is really a arguement as to why its not busted when literally every deck has bad draws.
I'll skip the odds of pulling off the Glowfly Swarm because it's leading the discussion astray, but they're not as bad as you think (drawing 9 cards is 30% of your deck plus mulligan after all).
You seem to consider running little to no minions as a negigible cost for refreshing spring water, but take that same card and put it in a class like Paladin or Demon Hunter and it would never see any amount of play.
If you believe that a 4 mana draw 2 is a passable potential downside in today's Hearthstone then you clearly have no grasp of the game. That is a straight up game losing scenario. As for the potential to gain mana from it, that requires not only the deckbuilding restrictions to be met, but also a setup (very much like the cards i brought up, for which you are still missing the point). It is obvious to me that if any card was a problem in this deck that would be Incanter's Flow, but i doubt that the deck actually needs nerfs.
>take that same card and put it in a class like Pally or DH and it wouldn't see play
Uhm... so what? We're talking about the current scenario not some random what-if. If Tickatus was in Mage or Pally it probably wouldn't see play either. Same with, say, Liadrin in any non Libram deck. Or Y'shaarj in a non Corrupt deck. A card being bad outside of its archetype is totally irrelevant to its power level.
Once again, the issue is not that Spring Water is a 4 mana draw 2, it is that in reality it will almost NEVER be a 4 mana draw 2. Without any other modifiers, it will always be a 0 mana draw 2 in spell mage, and will be a 2 mana draw 2 about 80% of the time in generic mage, and 90% of the time in spell damage or ping mage which only run 6-8 minions. That is exactly my point. If it were nerfed to 1 mana per spell drawn, then it WOULD be in the position that you're describing and would be balanced. It would be cheaper than AI in a spell mage deck, and would be a competitive amount of draw power in a regular mage deck.
The fact that it can generate mana when it's discounted hints at the actual problem in RSW archetypes, the discounting. Flow is what I'd look at first.
Just give the card the “roll the bones” treatment where it would draw spells with the same effect until they didn’t draw a spell. Problem solved.
such salt much BM.
That's just Myra's Unstable Element at that point.
Fuhgeddaboudit
Well they want to reprint cards every xpac. Whatever happened to having a downside of playing a card.
such salt much BM.
That's an interesting point, because the problem is actually that Spell Mage has exceeded a critical mass of discounting effects, and they all work together to create a disgusting monster.
Mana discounts and mana cheating have always caused the biggest problems in Hearthstone. Recruit was an utter nightmare. Spell Mage is basically a recruit deck for spells instead of minions.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Don't try to add percentages to your comments because it's frankly embarrassing.
In a deck with 6 minions the first RSW has a 37.7% chance of finding at least one minion. In one with 8, the chance is 48.3%.
Also, you are under the mistaken impression that draw spells should be compared to Arcane Intellect, which is no longer correct. The current power of all playable draw spells is higher than Arcane Intellect and the only reason mage decks run it are the discounts available.