I know nothing of MTG, but how could card game designers not understand the significance of card draw ? Genuine question I'm just curious
It was the first game of the kind and they were just throwing stuff in to see what sticks. It was also the time before the internet and i guess testing was quite limited.
Cards like a 6 mana 6/5 were considered the nuts (minions in MtG fully heal at the end of each turn) and noone really had any concept of combos etc.
Anyone defending this card is delusional imo. 0 mana draw 2 is insane even if it has a ,,restriction,, . And the HUGE ,,restriction,, is play a few spells in your deck. Think about it...even if it draws one minion and one spell its a 2 mana Arcane Intellect which is a good card even at 3 mana. Lets not forget about the fact that if it gets reduced somehow and draws 2 spells it actually generates mana in addition to drawing cards for free. Its one of those obviously broken cards that is for sure a nerf target if mage ever becomes too good.
Well imo the card needs a nerf. Especially due to cost reduction the card itself can give you a mana crystal (or sometimes even two). One of the reasons, why spell mage is pretty good right now is also because the pool of cards which can be dsicovered (and gained by deck of luna) is smaller and doesnt have that much really shitty clunky spells.
Anyone defending this card is delusional imo. 0 mana draw 2 is insane even if it has a ,,restriction,, . And the HUGE ,,restriction,, is play a few spells in your deck. Think about it...even if it draws one minion and one spell its a 2 mana Arcane Intellect which is a good card even at 3 mana. Lets not forget about the fact that if it gets reduced somehow and draws 2 spells it actually generates mana in addition to drawing cards for free. Its one of those obviously broken cards that is for sure a nerf target if mage ever becomes too good.
Glowfly Swarm can summon 14/14 stats on turns 3-5, nerf.
Cascading disaster kills three minions for four mana, and then another three for 0, nerf!
Nofin can stop us gives an entire murloc board +2/+2 for just 3 mana, nerf!
Barak Kodobane draws three cards AND summons an enraged Mankirk, nerf!
Cutting Class is also a 0 mana draw 2, nerf!
Nerf everything! Bring us back to the noble time of the Chillwind Yeti!
Anyone defending this card is delusional imo. 0 mana draw 2 is insane even if it has a ,,restriction,, . And the HUGE ,,restriction,, is play a few spells in your deck. Think about it...even if it draws one minion and one spell its a 2 mana Arcane Intellect which is a good card even at 3 mana. Lets not forget about the fact that if it gets reduced somehow and draws 2 spells it actually generates mana in addition to drawing cards for free. Its one of those obviously broken cards that is for sure a nerf target if mage ever becomes too good.
Glowfly Swarm can summon 14/14 stats on turns 3-5, nerf.
Cascading disaster kills three minions for four mana, and then another three for 0, nerf!
Nofin can stop us gives an entire murloc board +2/+2 for just 3 mana, nerf!
Barak Kodobane draws three cards AND summons an enraged Mankirk, nerf!
Cutting Class is also a 0 mana draw 2, nerf!
Nerf everything! Bring us back to the noble time of the Chillwind Yeti!
Wtf are you talking about bengalaas, think before say such a bs... all these cards you mentioned ACTUALLY have a condition different than Refreshing spring water that running only spells it's an ADVANTAGE not a downside.
”In the posts, people compare the card to the iconic Pot of Greed card from Yugioh. Pot of Greed allowed the user to draw 2 cards, without any requirements“
I love how many people argue that it has no requirements, as if running a deck containing zero minions to be a guaranteed “pot of greed” isn’t a requirement.
I understand spell mage is a very strong deck, and has enough support, but people need to stop acting like RSW doesn’t have a requirement lol.
Anyone defending this card is delusional imo. 0 mana draw 2 is insane even if it has a ,,restriction,, . And the HUGE ,,restriction,, is play a few spells in your deck. Think about it...even if it draws one minion and one spell its a 2 mana Arcane Intellect which is a good card even at 3 mana. Lets not forget about the fact that if it gets reduced somehow and draws 2 spells it actually generates mana in addition to drawing cards for free. Its one of those obviously broken cards that is for sure a nerf target if mage ever becomes too good.
Glowfly Swarm can summon 14/14 stats on turns 3-5, nerf.
Cascading disaster kills three minions for four mana, and then another three for 0, nerf!
Nofin can stop us gives an entire murloc board +2/+2 for just 3 mana, nerf!
Barak Kodobane draws three cards AND summons an enraged Mankirk, nerf!
Cutting Class is also a 0 mana draw 2, nerf!
Nerf everything! Bring us back to the noble time of the Chillwind Yeti!
Wtf are you talking about bengalaas, think before say such a bs... all these cards you mentioned ACTUALLY have a condition different than Refreshing spring water that running only spells it's an ADVANTAGE not a downside.
ffs...
Having a deck containing all spells is a condition LOL. You people are delusional when it comes to your arguments.
Spell mage being an insane deck does not, in any way, shape, or form, change the fact that RSW does have a requirement.
In standard, mages are a non issue. They have very polarized matchups, but are in fact struggeling to break a 50% because of a glaring weakness to all aggro.
It's an OK card design in concept - it requires something that's traditionally been a tough deckbuilding condition to BE Pot of Greed, which is an interesting thing. The problem is, it's currently NOT a tough deckbuilding condition, since Spell Mage has great support and great cards to choose from.
The problem isn't that mage can draw their entire deck, it's that they can play their entire deck of free spells with Incanter's Flow and Sorcerer's Apprentice.
Those two need to be nerfed, not by cost increases, but by making them read: but not less than (1)
(Also, funny that the first response is from someone with an Exodia profile picture.)
I can imagine them nerfing Incanter's Flow to "reduce the cost of the next 5 spells in your deck by (1)"
The card pushes a Mage player towards an archetype, which after the Deck of Lunacy nerf, isn't even all that good anymore. Add minions and it becomes a gamble. It makes you think about the spell/minion balance to make the most of it so there is always a risk in such decks. I think that Mage has access to a lot of card draw and only one out of those doesn't have a condition. Nobody is contesting it but perhaps the sheer amount of card draw should be, RSW or not.
Cutting Class is a good comparison actually, it has a condition but one which suits a certain archetype - exactly what we have with RSW. This condition is easier met with RWS (just play all spells), yes, but in doing so you are making other trade-offs (all minions you'll ever get are rng and we all know that certainty beats random in this game). So then we start adding minions. How many and which ones will give you a competitive deck to make RSW the smallest gamble? We don't have one like that yet. Combo with Incanter's was mentioned. It's a tempo loss card, so is any card draw card, actually. You benefit in the long run, yes, but if, and it's a big if, you can afford it. And guess what, usually you can't.
It's a Tickatus conversation again, really - people really don't like to play against it even though it's not that good (for the record, hate Tickatus myself enough to play faster decks/adapt against it but I recognise that Burn Warlock is not a good deck).
”In the posts, people compare the card to the iconic Pot of Greed card from Yugioh. Pot of Greed allowed the user to draw 2 cards, without any requirements“
I love how many people argue that it has no requirements, as if running a deck containing zero minions to be a guaranteed “pot of greed” isn’t a requirement.
I understand spell mage is a very strong deck, and has enough support, but people need to stop acting like RSW doesn’t have a requirement lol.
RSW has a requirement to be good; running 0 minons ain't it. 2 mana draw 2 is stilll very good; the fact it can't happen until T4 makes it just good. You can get away with five minions, certainly, and still have RSW be good; probably more, but I'm speaking from experience. It can easily be bonkers.
I'd tone it down to 'restore two mana crystals if you draw a spell', personally, but it is a strong, pushed card.
The new core set carry mages hard atm just because of the smaller Discover pool.
They can easily discover 3 Primes in one match because there are only a few spelldamage minions.
Same with Priest, Discover a Dragon atm means you get a Malygos or Alex literally every single time
I understand what u mean Phoesias and hopefully they will fix discover mechanic with more cards added to the game because it really doens't make any sense now but the mage prime is just a bad card for mage right now, you dont wanna shuffle minions into your deck and since the prime got nerfed to 9 mana it has been quite underwhelming.
Anyone defending this card is delusional imo. 0 mana draw 2 is insane even if it has a ,,restriction,, . And the HUGE ,,restriction,, is play a few spells in your deck. Think about it...even if it draws one minion and one spell its a 2 mana Arcane Intellect which is a good card even at 3 mana. Lets not forget about the fact that if it gets reduced somehow and draws 2 spells it actually generates mana in addition to drawing cards for free. Its one of those obviously broken cards that is for sure a nerf target if mage ever becomes too good.
Glowfly Swarm can summon 14/14 stats on turns 3-5, nerf.
Cascading disaster kills three minions for four mana, and then another three for 0, nerf!
Nofin can stop us gives an entire murloc board +2/+2 for just 3 mana, nerf!
Barak Kodobane draws three cards AND summons an enraged Mankirk, nerf!
Cutting Class is also a 0 mana draw 2, nerf!
Nerf everything! Bring us back to the noble time of the Chillwind Yeti!
Cascading Disaster does need a nerf though.
Literally all of the other cards that you described require an actual condition and setup to use. You can't just draw and play them for free.
Glowfly Swarm, number one, cannot summon 14/14 on turn 3 in any scenario. It's a 5 mana spell my dude. And druids do not have low cost value draw. That means that on turn 3 you can drop coin and innervate and get 8/8, or on turn 4 you can coin and get 12/12. Or if you have exactly coin and Nature Studies you can get 14/14 but that means you did nothing to counter your opponent building a board for 4 turns.
Cascading disaster has to have two higher cost cards played to activate.
Nofin requires you to keep a board for it to be useful. If it buffed your hand it would be a little broken.
Barak Kodobane doesn't summon a Mankrik unless you played Mankrik first, you pay 5 mana for 3.5 mana worth of stats, and you can lose a draw if RNG doesnt like you and you draw all spells of x cost beforehand.
Cutting Class requires you to either play a 5+ mana weapon or use multiple cards to buff. Although that one I kind of agree, it should be min 1 cost.
Anyway, none of those are "worst case scenario draw 2 free cards, best case scenario draw 2 free cards gain 2 mana". Even in normal mage decks it has a strong chance to just be a 1 mana Arcane Intellect.
Literally all of the other cards that you described require an actual condition and setup to use. You can't just draw and play them for free.
Glowfly Swarm, number one, cannot summon 14/14 on turn 3 in any scenario. It's a 5 mana spell my dude. And druids do not have low cost value draw. That means that on turn 3 you can drop coin and innervate and get 8/8, or on turn 4 you can coin and get 12/12. Or if you have exactly coin and Nature Studies you can get 14/14 but that means you did nothing to counter your opponent building a board for 4 turns.
Cascading disaster has to have two higher cost cards played to activate.
Nofin requires you to keep a board for it to be useful. If it buffed your hand it would be a little broken.
Barak Kodobane doesn't summon a Mankrik unless you played Mankrik first, you pay 5 mana for 3.5 mana worth of stats, and you can lose a draw if RNG doesnt like you and you draw all spells of x cost beforehand.
Cutting Class requires you to either play a 5+ mana weapon or use multiple cards to buff. Although that one I kind of agree, it should be min 1 cost.
Anyway, none of those are "worst case scenario draw 2 free cards, best case scenario draw 2 free cards gain 2 mana". Even in normal mage decks it has a strong chance to just be a 1 mana Arcane Intellect.
Turn2 Fungal Fortunes into turn 3 Lightning Bloom + Glowfly Swarm is a play sequence i have done several times recently. I guess you forgot about those two cards.
There are TWO different cards that can buff your entire hand for +2/+2 currently in standard (i bet you can't even remember the second one without looking it up)
Barak Kodobane can miss only because of the cards currently available to the class.
And with that, we finally get to the point of the argument. Refreshing Spring Water only seems to be overpowered because it does so much in one specific deck. It's that strong because it plays well with other cards, the power is not inherent to the card itself. The solution imho is not to nerf that, or any other mage card, but to steer the metagame to a position where the decks that are able to keep spell mage in check don't have abysmal winrates against most other decks.
Literally all of the other cards that you described require an actual condition and setup to use. You can't just draw and play them for free.
Glowfly Swarm, number one, cannot summon 14/14 on turn 3 in any scenario. It's a 5 mana spell my dude. And druids do not have low cost value draw. That means that on turn 3 you can drop coin and innervate and get 8/8, or on turn 4 you can coin and get 12/12. Or if you have exactly coin and Nature Studies you can get 14/14 but that means you did nothing to counter your opponent building a board for 4 turns.
Cascading disaster has to have two higher cost cards played to activate.
Nofin requires you to keep a board for it to be useful. If it buffed your hand it would be a little broken.
Barak Kodobane doesn't summon a Mankrik unless you played Mankrik first, you pay 5 mana for 3.5 mana worth of stats, and you can lose a draw if RNG doesnt like you and you draw all spells of x cost beforehand.
Cutting Class requires you to either play a 5+ mana weapon or use multiple cards to buff. Although that one I kind of agree, it should be min 1 cost.
Anyway, none of those are "worst case scenario draw 2 free cards, best case scenario draw 2 free cards gain 2 mana". Even in normal mage decks it has a strong chance to just be a 1 mana Arcane Intellect.
Turn2 Fungal Fortunes into turn 3 Lightning Bloom + Glowfly Swarm is a play sequence i have done several times recently. I guess you forgot about those two cards.
There are TWO different cards that can buff your entire hand for +2/+2 currently in standard (i bet you can't even remember the second one without looking it up)
Barak Kodobane can miss only because of the cards currently available to the class.
And with that, we finally get to the point of the argument. Refreshing Spring Water only seems to be overpowered because it does so much in one specific deck. It's that strong because it plays well with other cards, the power is not inherent to the card itself. The solution imho is not to nerf that, or any other mage card, but to steer the metagame to a position where the decks that are able to keep spell mage in check don't have abysmal winrates against most other decks.
"Several times" Ah yeah sure, several times you went second or got Nature Studies and drew a specific series of 3 cards in the first 9 cards of your deck. Show me the match recordings. Just because 5% of the time you can get a combo off doesnt make it a good combo.
The second one is the hunter beast buff I assume. Conditioning can't be activated until t5, and the beast buff isnt active until t4 unless you go second and coin into a 3 drop to go super ham on it for some reason.
And Kodobane can whiff if you draw him later in the game and have already drawn into all your 1, 2, or 3 drop spells, it has nothing to do with cards available to the class.
Spring Water is OP because of the text of the card. It doesn't matter if there are decks that counter it, anything that provides free value with zero input or cost from the player is bad.
Every other card you mentioned requires you to use resources to play it, and makes you more vulnerable; your turn 3 Glowfly Swarm for example leaves you open to Consecrate if youre second, Lightning Storm, School Spirits, etc. Nofin requires you to setup the board. Kodobane makes you play a garbage 5 drop for extra value.
Refreshing Spring Water has no downside in any deck that it's included in. Worst case scenario, you pay 4 mana to draw 2; best case scenario you get back 2 mana to draw 2. It isn't just good in 1 deck, it's a staple in all mage decks and will be until it rotates out.
If you can't understand that, then you don't know anything about how card games work whatsoever.
Refreshing Spring Water has no downside in any deck that it's included in. Worst case scenario, you pay 4 mana to draw 2; best case scenario you get back 2 mana to draw 2. It isn't just good in 1 deck, it's a staple in all mage decks and will be until it rotates out.
Draw 2 for 4 is relatively bad, but it's not a bad worst case. 2 for 2 is actively good (better than AI), and relatively reliable even with a decent chunk of minions. 2 for 0 is always good. Add in cost reduction and it is just great, though catches people out that it refills, not grants new, mana. Have to spend it first.
It has a deckbuilding downside, but will be above average in most decks that aren't heavy minions - and mage has never been too heavy on minions. 5 minions hits 2 spells from RSW most times, and pretty much never hits 0.
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It was the first game of the kind and they were just throwing stuff in to see what sticks. It was also the time before the internet and i guess testing was quite limited.
Cards like a 6 mana 6/5 were considered the nuts (minions in MtG fully heal at the end of each turn) and noone really had any concept of combos etc.
Anyone defending this card is delusional imo. 0 mana draw 2 is insane even if it has a ,,restriction,, . And the HUGE ,,restriction,, is play a few spells in your deck. Think about it...even if it draws one minion and one spell its a 2 mana Arcane Intellect which is a good card even at 3 mana. Lets not forget about the fact that if it gets reduced somehow and draws 2 spells it actually generates mana in addition to drawing cards for free. Its one of those obviously broken cards that is for sure a nerf target if mage ever becomes too good.
Well imo the card needs a nerf. Especially due to cost reduction the card itself can give you a mana crystal (or sometimes even two). One of the reasons, why spell mage is pretty good right now is also because the pool of cards which can be dsicovered (and gained by deck of luna) is smaller and doesnt have that much really shitty clunky spells.
Glowfly Swarm can summon 14/14 stats on turns 3-5, nerf.
Cascading disaster kills three minions for four mana, and then another three for 0, nerf!
Nofin can stop us gives an entire murloc board +2/+2 for just 3 mana, nerf!
Barak Kodobane draws three cards AND summons an enraged Mankirk, nerf!
Cutting Class is also a 0 mana draw 2, nerf!
Nerf everything! Bring us back to the noble time of the Chillwind Yeti!
Wtf are you talking about bengalaas, think before say such a bs... all these cards you mentioned ACTUALLY have a condition different than Refreshing spring water that running only spells it's an ADVANTAGE not a downside.
ffs...
”In the posts, people compare the card to the iconic Pot of Greed card from Yugioh. Pot of Greed allowed the user to draw 2 cards, without any requirements“
I love how many people argue that it has no requirements, as if running a deck containing zero minions to be a guaranteed “pot of greed” isn’t a requirement.
I understand spell mage is a very strong deck, and has enough support, but people need to stop acting like RSW doesn’t have a requirement lol.
Having a deck containing all spells is a condition LOL. You people are delusional when it comes to your arguments.
Spell mage being an insane deck does not, in any way, shape, or form, change the fact that RSW does have a requirement.
I have lost to these combos in Wild, and yes, it seems broken. However, is it that much more broken than other things going on in the format?
While spellcombo mages draw all the rage, Secret mage is by FAR the strongest mage deck in terms of winrate, all over the ladder.
Kabal Lackey into Rigged Faire Game, anyone?
In standard, mages are a non issue. They have very polarized matchups, but are in fact struggeling to break a 50% because of a glaring weakness to all aggro.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
It's an OK card design in concept - it requires something that's traditionally been a tough deckbuilding condition to BE Pot of Greed, which is an interesting thing. The problem is, it's currently NOT a tough deckbuilding condition, since Spell Mage has great support and great cards to choose from.
It's way too overpowered, mage can literally draw its whole deck in 1 turn
Rofl
The card pushes a Mage player towards an archetype, which after the Deck of Lunacy nerf, isn't even all that good anymore. Add minions and it becomes a gamble. It makes you think about the spell/minion balance to make the most of it so there is always a risk in such decks. I think that Mage has access to a lot of card draw and only one out of those doesn't have a condition. Nobody is contesting it but perhaps the sheer amount of card draw should be, RSW or not.
Cutting Class is a good comparison actually, it has a condition but one which suits a certain archetype - exactly what we have with RSW. This condition is easier met with RWS (just play all spells), yes, but in doing so you are making other trade-offs (all minions you'll ever get are rng and we all know that certainty beats random in this game). So then we start adding minions. How many and which ones will give you a competitive deck to make RSW the smallest gamble? We don't have one like that yet. Combo with Incanter's was mentioned. It's a tempo loss card, so is any card draw card, actually. You benefit in the long run, yes, but if, and it's a big if, you can afford it. And guess what, usually you can't.
It's a Tickatus conversation again, really - people really don't like to play against it even though it's not that good (for the record, hate Tickatus myself enough to play faster decks/adapt against it but I recognise that Burn Warlock is not a good deck).
RSW has a requirement to be good; running 0 minons ain't it. 2 mana draw 2 is stilll very good; the fact it can't happen until T4 makes it just good. You can get away with five minions, certainly, and still have RSW be good; probably more, but I'm speaking from experience. It can easily be bonkers.
I'd tone it down to 'restore two mana crystals if you draw a spell', personally, but it is a strong, pushed card.
yes it can be compared. it's trash design anyway.
The new core set carry mages hard atm just because of the smaller Discover pool.
They can easily discover 3 Primes in one match because there are only a few spelldamage minions.
Same with Priest, Discover a Dragon atm means you get a Malygos or Alex literally every single time
I understand what u mean Phoesias and hopefully they will fix discover mechanic with more cards added to the game because it really doens't make any sense now but the mage prime is just a bad card for mage right now, you dont wanna shuffle minions into your deck and since the prime got nerfed to 9 mana it has been quite underwhelming.
Cascading Disaster does need a nerf though.
Literally all of the other cards that you described require an actual condition and setup to use. You can't just draw and play them for free.
Glowfly Swarm, number one, cannot summon 14/14 on turn 3 in any scenario. It's a 5 mana spell my dude. And druids do not have low cost value draw. That means that on turn 3 you can drop coin and innervate and get 8/8, or on turn 4 you can coin and get 12/12. Or if you have exactly coin and Nature Studies you can get 14/14 but that means you did nothing to counter your opponent building a board for 4 turns.
Cascading disaster has to have two higher cost cards played to activate.
Nofin requires you to keep a board for it to be useful. If it buffed your hand it would be a little broken.
Barak Kodobane doesn't summon a Mankrik unless you played Mankrik first, you pay 5 mana for 3.5 mana worth of stats, and you can lose a draw if RNG doesnt like you and you draw all spells of x cost beforehand.
Cutting Class requires you to either play a 5+ mana weapon or use multiple cards to buff. Although that one I kind of agree, it should be min 1 cost.
Anyway, none of those are "worst case scenario draw 2 free cards, best case scenario draw 2 free cards gain 2 mana". Even in normal mage decks it has a strong chance to just be a 1 mana Arcane Intellect.
Turn2 Fungal Fortunes into turn 3 Lightning Bloom + Glowfly Swarm is a play sequence i have done several times recently. I guess you forgot about those two cards.
There are TWO different cards that can buff your entire hand for +2/+2 currently in standard (i bet you can't even remember the second one without looking it up)
Barak Kodobane can miss only because of the cards currently available to the class.
And with that, we finally get to the point of the argument. Refreshing Spring Water only seems to be overpowered because it does so much in one specific deck. It's that strong because it plays well with other cards, the power is not inherent to the card itself. The solution imho is not to nerf that, or any other mage card, but to steer the metagame to a position where the decks that are able to keep spell mage in check don't have abysmal winrates against most other decks.
"Several times" Ah yeah sure, several times you went second or got Nature Studies and drew a specific series of 3 cards in the first 9 cards of your deck. Show me the match recordings. Just because 5% of the time you can get a combo off doesnt make it a good combo.
The second one is the hunter beast buff I assume. Conditioning can't be activated until t5, and the beast buff isnt active until t4 unless you go second and coin into a 3 drop to go super ham on it for some reason.
And Kodobane can whiff if you draw him later in the game and have already drawn into all your 1, 2, or 3 drop spells, it has nothing to do with cards available to the class.
Spring Water is OP because of the text of the card. It doesn't matter if there are decks that counter it, anything that provides free value with zero input or cost from the player is bad.
Every other card you mentioned requires you to use resources to play it, and makes you more vulnerable; your turn 3 Glowfly Swarm for example leaves you open to Consecrate if youre second, Lightning Storm, School Spirits, etc. Nofin requires you to setup the board. Kodobane makes you play a garbage 5 drop for extra value.
Refreshing Spring Water has no downside in any deck that it's included in. Worst case scenario, you pay 4 mana to draw 2; best case scenario you get back 2 mana to draw 2. It isn't just good in 1 deck, it's a staple in all mage decks and will be until it rotates out.
If you can't understand that, then you don't know anything about how card games work whatsoever.
Draw 2 for 4 is relatively bad, but it's not a bad worst case. 2 for 2 is actively good (better than AI), and relatively reliable even with a decent chunk of minions. 2 for 0 is always good. Add in cost reduction and it is just great, though catches people out that it refills, not grants new, mana. Have to spend it first.
It has a deckbuilding downside, but will be above average in most decks that aren't heavy minions - and mage has never been too heavy on minions. 5 minions hits 2 spells from RSW most times, and pretty much never hits 0.