Put it in another class. I never understood how it is a Paladin card. I like the Paladin class for being basically the opposite of Mage; having very little randomness and being heavily dependent on the board state. Oh My Yogg! looks like a Mage card that accidentally made its way into the Paladin card pool.
I don't really get the issue with this one if I'm honest. Feels like 70% of the time I just play around it and then about 15% it backfires and 15% goes on my favour.
It's a pretty easy secret to play around? If paladin has a secret up then I'll use a coin or 1 mana spell to look for omy, if I don't have a throw away spell then I may hang back a turn or two or if I can't afford to, I'll throw it out anyway. If I have the coin vs paladin I will either only use it to gain the board and tempo straight away or keep it for testing for omy, gives me a free play around.
Omy and avenge can be very powerful but they are also pretty easy to play around. Some decks won't be bothered by omy at all because they don't rely on spells. It does come across a bit like some people just don't understand how to manoeuvre round certain secrets.
Secrets are supposed to mess around with you and trigger when you do something, stop you doing something etc. That's their entire point. I have lost more games due to avenge snowballing than I ever have with omy.
Counterspell is a 3 cost rare spell with has the following benefits (in no particular order):
1. Secret synergy
2. It's existence forces your opponent to either make suboptimal plays when ANY secret is in play, or to risk losing a key spell - for more advanced players, usually the suboptimal plays route.
3. It costs your opponent a card
4. It costs your opponent mana (unless they have the coin or a zero mana spell handy)
Now let's compare to oh my yogg:
Oh my yogg is a 1 mana epic spell which covers all 4 of the above PLUS
5. Casts a random spell with random targets
A few notes: First, effect 5 by itself is considered a fun and minorly beneficial effect on any card. At the worst it is considered zero sum and entertaining to many players.
Second oh my yogg is epic, counterspell is rare, so it should be modestly stronger. Even discounting effect 5 as zero sum, oh my yogg costs 2 mana less than counterspell for the same 4 effects. That is radically stronger (in no way proportional the usual rare to epic power boost) than a reasonable card should be.
Taking all of the above into account I definitely think a nerf to oh my yogg is in order. Furthermore any nerf to the card must target one of its 5 strengths (you can't target cost as seeing a paladin play a 2 cost secret would be a dead giveaway that would defeat the purpose of the card), or must completely rework the card. As a general rule I think nerfs should attempt to preserve the spirit of the card while roughly balancing it with other cards in similar slots. If this is impossible then and only then something more radical is needed. With that in mind let's analyze the 5 current effects of the cards and see what nerfs would be possible without fundementally altering oh my yogg:
1. Not much you can do here. By its nature it's a secret, and will share secret synergy.
2. It is supposed to serve this purpose (in fact I would argue that this is its primary function) so I will look elsewhere for nerfs.
3. Several options here: let your opponent draw a card OR give your opponent a 1 mana discover a card (more thought could probably present many other similar options to nerf trait 3)
4. Refund your opponent the cost of the spell OR charge the paladin the cost of the spell (by giving them less mana in their following turn).
5. Make the random effects generally positive to the caster / negative to the paladin (in the vast majority of cases)
Now my opinions:
I think oh my yogg is meant to cause craziness so I don't like the idea of a nerf to 5. If the nerf is gonna come to 4, I would favor refunding the mana - - that would emphasise its craziness effect and make it weirder to counterplay (do you really wanna test with coin if you will get 0 mana back and may cast a spell that eats all your mana?). If the nerf is gonna come to 3, I favor the discover a card option (I think it quite nicely plays into the randomness mechanic of oh my yogg, it doesn't help decks that want to cycle for certain cards, and it requires the player triggering oh my yogg to spend the same 1 mana that oh my yogg costs to replace the card - I see a certain elegance there). Between a nerf to 3 or 4, I favor the nerf to 3 (in the form of the discover a card option) though I would be happy either way.
Honestly i wouldn't (right now). OMY is not the reason Paladin is in this spot right now. Or more like it is in lower ranks, but only because people don't know how to play around it and the other secrets. Everyone keeps compering it to counterspell, and I don't get it.
1 how often do you even play counterspell in your deck. You only play it when you can cheat it out. Counterspell is not at good enough card, and saying it's a 3 mana effect is simply not true.
2 OMY had a drawback. Actually a big one if you play against a good opponent. OMY is NOT countering the spell, it's changing it. You actually more often than not get a good resultat playing into OMY, if you know what you are doing.
3 The random spell is not a zero sum game as a lot of people say. The reason is locked cards. An example would be one side board clears, summonings or card draw. This will change the card, but not actively give you a bad outcome. Most cards are like this
Now let's discuss some of the proposed changes. Making the spell cost one more would not make it worse. In a lot of cases it would make it better, as you can get much worse outcomes with one mana spells than 0 mana spells.
Summoning cards for both would be a buff as your opponent gets to attack first
Just hurling random spells at each other would be the only reasonable change, and would be a nerf. But it would also be a sure 800 dust because the card would be unusable.
Now to the actual problem with the card. Right know we have a small card pool. That is also the reason Lunacy is playable. The fact is as the card pool gets bigger, OMY will likely get better, even against top tier players. That will become at problem.
But for now, learn to play around OMY. Test the secret before you use your big spells, and keep the coin to do so. It's actually not that difficult to play around, but as every other secret it will give be better against bad opponents than good opponents
A few things. First zero sum game doesn't mean bad outcome it means any gains come at the direct expense of one side with expected value zero (its a game theory term in economics) two card examples: If I play a minion with some benefit to me that would not be zero sum, it would be strictly beneficial to me. If I cast a truly random spell, with truly random targets on a truly random board that would be zero sum (yes I know there is no such thing but this is a thought exercise). The effects of oh my yogg that mirror counterspell are in no way zero sum (numbered 1-4 by me) effect 5 is (or is at least close to on one side or the other). In order to 'effectively' counterplay oh my yogg, you need to know that the secret your opponent has is oh my yogg (otherwise you are restricting your play to say 5 cost spells if you are looking for desirable effects - - and even then there are still decent odds you are targeting a board clear and get a buff or visa versa - - then oh my yogg doesn't trigger and you just badly misplayed your turn). This idea that anyone at any rank can just waive a magic want and perfectly counterplay counterspell or oh my yogg is simply nonsense (I was mid legend on a secret mage standard last season and people mucked up turns for fear of counterspell all the time - it's why secret mage had (and has) noticibly better win odds going second, because coin gave a free counterspell test).
Wow... I just noticed you literally said 'keep the coin to do so' so basically you are conceding that the card is a problem the 50% of the time you don't get the coin.... Even that is enough to mandate a nerf... And by the way testing oh my yogg with coin works as you said because of the small zero mana card pool. Try testing with coin in wild :P bad idea.
Lets refocus to my actual advice:
Oh my yogg is a 2 mana cheaper counterspell with an effect that (unless you happen to go second and are playing standard) is zero sum (again not saying bad, saying expected value zero with someone getting hurt). Paladin is not weak at the moment (and secret paladin is a thing) so nerfs are likely to improve odds for other classes - which is desirable.
My proposed nerf was: keep oh my yogg the same in current effects, have it add a 1 mana card that reads: discover a spell from your class to the casters hand.
All effects but 3 from my OP remain the same and reversing 3 means spending the same mana that was spent on oh my yogg.
why does a card that cost 1 but you can play for 0 have the abillity to mess with a 10 mana turn?... like cmon man , big mana cards getting disrespected
Just remove the “of the same cost” tag. Make it truly random. Puzzle box of Yogg plays 10 spells for 10 mana. Make oh my yogg play a random spell for one mana. Can be good/meh/or game winning/losing. Just like yogg has always been. Right now at least in my experience it is just too good for the Paladin for being a 1 mana secret. Have some draw back.
Just remove the “of the same cost” tag. Make it truly random. Puzzle box of Yogg plays 10 spells for 10 mana. Make oh my yogg play a random spell for one mana. Can be good/meh/or game winning/losing. Just like yogg has always been. Right now at least in my experience it is just too good for the Paladin for being a 1 mana secret. Have some draw back.
Will be hillarious the secret deny a mass removal in 3 small minions and the paladin see a board of 4 3/5 minions crushing his from nowhere.
In a way it is a cheaper counterspell, only that the counterspell denies you the spell, while this transforms it into something random that sometimes can do the same or even something better than you had in mind. I don't think a nerf is necessary.
Simple and elegant: cast *mage* spell instead, *targeting random enemy if possible*.
The problem with yogg is that you regularly end up with absolutelly useless spell, or worse—buff enemies. That's too much value for 1-cost spell. It must backfire somehow, i.e. generate some disadvantage for the enemy too.
This already had an indirect nerf through the sword being hit. I say hit the librams, not secrets again. Counterspell can be played around, so can this. It creates intersting decisions regarding whether you can afford to try and play around it or whether you have to gamble. Like Watchposts - and they nerfed those too, which was a shame. Cards that create interesting game states like Oh My Yogg are what this game needs...not endless, skilless value generation from librams.
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I would make the art better.
"Get nae nae'd"
Put it in another class. I never understood how it is a Paladin card. I like the Paladin class for being basically the opposite of Mage; having very little randomness and being heavily dependent on the board state. Oh My Yogg! looks like a Mage card that accidentally made its way into the Paladin card pool.
Ceterum censeo classum magi esse delendam.
I don't really get the issue with this one if I'm honest. Feels like 70% of the time I just play around it and then about 15% it backfires and 15% goes on my favour.
It's a pretty easy secret to play around? If paladin has a secret up then I'll use a coin or 1 mana spell to look for omy, if I don't have a throw away spell then I may hang back a turn or two or if I can't afford to, I'll throw it out anyway. If I have the coin vs paladin I will either only use it to gain the board and tempo straight away or keep it for testing for omy, gives me a free play around.
Omy and avenge can be very powerful but they are also pretty easy to play around. Some decks won't be bothered by omy at all because they don't rely on spells. It does come across a bit like some people just don't understand how to manoeuvre round certain secrets.
Secrets are supposed to mess around with you and trigger when you do something, stop you doing something etc. That's their entire point. I have lost more games due to avenge snowballing than I ever have with omy.
classic forum boi right here... nothing of value... only here to expose his level of ignorance
He's not wrong
When an opponent plays a spell, they cast a random one that costs 3 more KEKW.
When an opponent casts a spell, counter it and add a random spell of the same cost to their hand.
I wanted to tackle this in a few parts:
First let's do some analysis on counterspell:
Counterspell is a 3 cost rare spell with has the following benefits (in no particular order):
1. Secret synergy
2. It's existence forces your opponent to either make suboptimal plays when ANY secret is in play, or to risk losing a key spell - for more advanced players, usually the suboptimal plays route.
3. It costs your opponent a card
4. It costs your opponent mana (unless they have the coin or a zero mana spell handy)
Now let's compare to oh my yogg:
Oh my yogg is a 1 mana epic spell which covers all 4 of the above PLUS
5. Casts a random spell with random targets
A few notes: First, effect 5 by itself is considered a fun and minorly beneficial effect on any card. At the worst it is considered zero sum and entertaining to many players.
Second oh my yogg is epic, counterspell is rare, so it should be modestly stronger. Even discounting effect 5 as zero sum, oh my yogg costs 2 mana less than counterspell for the same 4 effects. That is radically stronger (in no way proportional the usual rare to epic power boost) than a reasonable card should be.
Taking all of the above into account I definitely think a nerf to oh my yogg is in order. Furthermore any nerf to the card must target one of its 5 strengths (you can't target cost as seeing a paladin play a 2 cost secret would be a dead giveaway that would defeat the purpose of the card), or must completely rework the card. As a general rule I think nerfs should attempt to preserve the spirit of the card while roughly balancing it with other cards in similar slots. If this is impossible then and only then something more radical is needed. With that in mind let's analyze the 5 current effects of the cards and see what nerfs would be possible without fundementally altering oh my yogg:
1. Not much you can do here. By its nature it's a secret, and will share secret synergy.
2. It is supposed to serve this purpose (in fact I would argue that this is its primary function) so I will look elsewhere for nerfs.
3. Several options here: let your opponent draw a card OR give your opponent a 1 mana discover a card (more thought could probably present many other similar options to nerf trait 3)
4. Refund your opponent the cost of the spell OR charge the paladin the cost of the spell (by giving them less mana in their following turn).
5. Make the random effects generally positive to the caster / negative to the paladin (in the vast majority of cases)
Now my opinions:
I think oh my yogg is meant to cause craziness so I don't like the idea of a nerf to 5. If the nerf is gonna come to 4, I would favor refunding the mana - - that would emphasise its craziness effect and make it weirder to counterplay (do you really wanna test with coin if you will get 0 mana back and may cast a spell that eats all your mana?). If the nerf is gonna come to 3, I favor the discover a card option (I think it quite nicely plays into the randomness mechanic of oh my yogg, it doesn't help decks that want to cycle for certain cards, and it requires the player triggering oh my yogg to spend the same 1 mana that oh my yogg costs to replace the card - I see a certain elegance there). Between a nerf to 3 or 4, I favor the nerf to 3 (in the form of the discover a card option) though I would be happy either way.
I wouldn't
I would make it a legendary spell
Honestly i wouldn't (right now). OMY is not the reason Paladin is in this spot right now. Or more like it is in lower ranks, but only because people don't know how to play around it and the other secrets. Everyone keeps compering it to counterspell, and I don't get it.
1 how often do you even play counterspell in your deck. You only play it when you can cheat it out. Counterspell is not at good enough card, and saying it's a 3 mana effect is simply not true.
2 OMY had a drawback. Actually a big one if you play against a good opponent. OMY is NOT countering the spell, it's changing it. You actually more often than not get a good resultat playing into OMY, if you know what you are doing.
3 The random spell is not a zero sum game as a lot of people say. The reason is locked cards. An example would be one side board clears, summonings or card draw. This will change the card, but not actively give you a bad outcome. Most cards are like this
Now let's discuss some of the proposed changes. Making the spell cost one more would not make it worse. In a lot of cases it would make it better, as you can get much worse outcomes with one mana spells than 0 mana spells.
Summoning cards for both would be a buff as your opponent gets to attack first
Just hurling random spells at each other would be the only reasonable change, and would be a nerf. But it would also be a sure 800 dust because the card would be unusable.
Now to the actual problem with the card. Right know we have a small card pool. That is also the reason Lunacy is playable. The fact is as the card pool gets bigger, OMY will likely get better, even against top tier players. That will become at problem.
But for now, learn to play around OMY. Test the secret before you use your big spells, and keep the coin to do so. It's actually not that difficult to play around, but as every other secret it will give be better against bad opponents than good opponents
Silver Hand Recruit
A few things. First zero sum game doesn't mean bad outcome it means any gains come at the direct expense of one side with expected value zero (its a game theory term in economics) two card examples: If I play a minion with some benefit to me that would not be zero sum, it would be strictly beneficial to me. If I cast a truly random spell, with truly random targets on a truly random board that would be zero sum (yes I know there is no such thing but this is a thought exercise). The effects of oh my yogg that mirror counterspell are in no way zero sum (numbered 1-4 by me) effect 5 is (or is at least close to on one side or the other). In order to 'effectively' counterplay oh my yogg, you need to know that the secret your opponent has is oh my yogg (otherwise you are restricting your play to say 5 cost spells if you are looking for desirable effects - - and even then there are still decent odds you are targeting a board clear and get a buff or visa versa - - then oh my yogg doesn't trigger and you just badly misplayed your turn). This idea that anyone at any rank can just waive a magic want and perfectly counterplay counterspell or oh my yogg is simply nonsense (I was mid legend on a secret mage standard last season and people mucked up turns for fear of counterspell all the time - it's why secret mage had (and has) noticibly better win odds going second, because coin gave a free counterspell test).
Wow... I just noticed you literally said 'keep the coin to do so' so basically you are conceding that the card is a problem the 50% of the time you don't get the coin.... Even that is enough to mandate a nerf... And by the way testing oh my yogg with coin works as you said because of the small zero mana card pool. Try testing with coin in wild :P bad idea.
Lets refocus to my actual advice:
Oh my yogg is a 2 mana cheaper counterspell with an effect that (unless you happen to go second and are playing standard) is zero sum (again not saying bad, saying expected value zero with someone getting hurt). Paladin is not weak at the moment (and secret paladin is a thing) so nerfs are likely to improve odds for other classes - which is desirable.
My proposed nerf was: keep oh my yogg the same in current effects, have it add a 1 mana card that reads: discover a spell from your class to the casters hand.
All effects but 3 from my OP remain the same and reversing 3 means spending the same mana that was spent on oh my yogg.
For the same reason of all previous nerfs, too much power for the cost.
If paladin can have 1 mana counterspell why mage can't have 1 mana 1/3 mana wyrm?
why does a card that cost 1 but you can play for 0 have the abillity to mess with a 10 mana turn?... like cmon man , big mana cards getting disrespected
Just remove the “of the same cost” tag. Make it truly random. Puzzle box of Yogg plays 10 spells for 10 mana. Make oh my yogg play a random spell for one mana. Can be good/meh/or game winning/losing. Just like yogg has always been. Right now at least in my experience it is just too good for the Paladin for being a 1 mana secret. Have some draw back.
such salt much BM.
Will be hillarious the secret deny a mass removal in 3 small minions and the paladin see a board of 4 3/5 minions crushing his from nowhere.
Make this happens. XD
In a way it is a cheaper counterspell, only that the counterspell denies you the spell, while this transforms it into something random that sometimes can do the same or even something better than you had in mind. I don't think a nerf is necessary.
I would NOT, because I do not see the reason to do this pointless nerf.
Maybe in future when 97 % of players would be Paladin who play this card.
EU 11/2015+ , f2p 03/2021+: DK 63 / DH 205 /Dr 277 / Hu 733 / Ma 6666 / Pa 1072 / Pr 1165 / Ro 1791 / Sh 1303 / Wl 707 / Wr 664
Simple and elegant: cast *mage* spell instead, *targeting random enemy if possible*.
The problem with yogg is that you regularly end up with absolutelly useless spell, or worse—buff enemies. That's too much value for 1-cost spell. It must backfire somehow, i.e. generate some disadvantage for the enemy too.
This already had an indirect nerf through the sword being hit. I say hit the librams, not secrets again. Counterspell can be played around, so can this. It creates intersting decisions regarding whether you can afford to try and play around it or whether you have to gamble. Like Watchposts - and they nerfed those too, which was a shame. Cards that create interesting game states like Oh My Yogg are what this game needs...not endless, skilless value generation from librams.