Everyone is talking about Deck of Lunacy winning games when played on turn 2. And yeah, the complaints are absolutely right, and the card is absurdly broken and getting rightfully nerfed. Some other people are talking about Spring Water, but it doesn't seem like anyone really wants it changed. But nobody is talking about Incanter's Flow.
I played a lot with and against Spell Mage, and I feel like my non-Lunacy on 2 games were always decided by whether I drew a Flow early. Mirror matchups are basically draw Flow-win, don't draw it-lose. It reminds me of one particular card that people have whined about for its entire lifespan in Standard - Prince Keleseth. The prince had an absurd mulligan winrate and created a very polarizing experience for both you and your opponent. Incanter's Flow has a 62% mulligan winrate according to HSReplay, only surpassed by Lunacy ofc. And it's no wonder that a card that cheats a total of ~25 mana when played on turn 1-2 has such a high winrate. It allows many crazy things like a 4 mana Apexis Blast or a 3 mana Fireball, not to mention Spring Water actually giving you mana. But the main problem is - when a card can decide an entire game depending on having or not having it in your opener, it's not a healthy card for the game.
Do you think the card should be nerfed? And if it should - how would you do it?
I think Incanter's Flow is a very strong card, there's no doubt about it. But as always, looking at cards in their own power level strikes me as being faulty. To me, it's the combination of the entire deck that made it strong, with Deck of Lunacy carrying the decks to win-conditions that it shouldn't have had in the first place. Overall, the deck just becomes less consistent, and it will turn off enough people to make the deck not as prominent as it was.
As for your statement about the mirrors, I think you made a good call. But not a surprising one. Incanter's Flow and RSW are the deck's carriers, so naturally, in a mirror, the one who draws them first has the upper hand. Same can be said in Control Warlock mirrors and Tickatus, or Paladin and SotF. Mirrors are a weird vacuum, that almost always highlight the importance of having faster access to your strongest cards.
So, in a nutshell, yes, Incanter's Flow is a very strong card. But there's nothing wrong with strong cards. Almost every class has access to its own fair share of strong cards. But it's the combination between the disproportional amount of strong cards that push a deck into the regions where Spell Mage and Secret (Libram) Paladin landed in.
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Well, to be honest, I don't think this card is causing the problems everyone is complaining about. Incanter's Flow was 1 of 3 cards originally introduced in AoO that gave you a reason to put only spells in your deck, and yes, if you have it in your opening hand, that's a lot of discounts. But being spread across all your cards isn't game breaking.
And back when the meta was more aggro-centric, doing "nothing" on turn 2 was pretty rough, so you might have needed to wait and play it later because you were too busy trying to keep up with damage control. So that's even less discounts.
I'd compare it to stuff like Druid ramp, where you bide your time and hopefully swing back harder, after. And so you need something to swing back with. (EG: discounted spells) Provided you draw them. Because keep in mind, it only effects spells in your deck, not hand, so your answer to the board would generally need to be drawn next. So spell mage could really use a better draw option to get there.
And now here we are, spell mage got a fantastic draw option, which made it finally function as a whole. Combine that with the reduced spell pool for lunacy, and there's the rioting mob...
TL;DR: Spell mage needs Incanter's Flow just the way it is. No single piece of the puzzle is to blame here, but Lunacy is low hanging fruit.
I mean, the deck still has good tools, it's a good deck, you can still win a lot of games that you didn't draw DoL at all, now it doesn't have the disgusting highroll potencial so early and doing nothing on turn 4 is a lot worse than not doing anything on turn 2 so I thing DoL is just gonna be cut, maybe for C'thun or maybe for Evocation.
At 2 mana incanter's flow should be a legendary card imo, being a common card makes it too consistent for such a powerful effect on curve (remove 25 mana from your deck basically), but it's also the only card that makes no-minion mage a real deck, and I really like it in my own few-minions mage, I don't want flow or spring water to be nerfed just because they are abused to their full extent by no-minion mage, they are extremely fun, fair and challenging cards when you are commited to playing minions in your deck.
You can’t really nerf incanters. The drawback to the deck is it can’t include any minions in the main list. And while the list has proven itself to not need them, it has also proven that it needs its all spell synergy cards to achieve playability.
If you push against an archetype too hard, it doesn’t just get nerfed, it dies. And it’s happened a lot in the past. The weaker classes should be brought up as opposed to the stronger ones being pushed down.
You can’t really nerf incanters. The drawback to the deck is it can’t include any minions in the main list. And while the list has proven itself to not need them, it has also proven that it needs its all spell synergy cards to achieve playability.
...you can run this card with minions in your deck. The downside isn't even that severe.
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Everyone is talking about Deck of Lunacy winning games when played on turn 2. And yeah, the complaints are absolutely right, and the card is absurdly broken and getting rightfully nerfed. Some other people are talking about Spring Water, but it doesn't seem like anyone really wants it changed. But nobody is talking about Incanter's Flow.
I played a lot with and against Spell Mage, and I feel like my non-Lunacy on 2 games were always decided by whether I drew a Flow early. Mirror matchups are basically draw Flow-win, don't draw it-lose. It reminds me of one particular card that people have whined about for its entire lifespan in Standard - Prince Keleseth. The prince had an absurd mulligan winrate and created a very polarizing experience for both you and your opponent. Incanter's Flow has a 62% mulligan winrate according to HSReplay, only surpassed by Lunacy ofc. And it's no wonder that a card that cheats a total of ~25 mana when played on turn 1-2 has such a high winrate. It allows many crazy things like a 4 mana Apexis Blast or a 3 mana Fireball, not to mention Spring Water actually giving you mana. But the main problem is - when a card can decide an entire game depending on having or not having it in your opener, it's not a healthy card for the game.
Do you think the card should be nerfed? And if it should - how would you do it?
No, simply beacause people with no hand play incanter’s flow before deck of lunacy in control matchup and that’s a free win for the opponent.
And is right that people get punished for the missplay.
Sorry for my broken english.
I think Incanter's Flow is a very strong card, there's no doubt about it. But as always, looking at cards in their own power level strikes me as being faulty. To me, it's the combination of the entire deck that made it strong, with Deck of Lunacy carrying the decks to win-conditions that it shouldn't have had in the first place. Overall, the deck just becomes less consistent, and it will turn off enough people to make the deck not as prominent as it was.
As for your statement about the mirrors, I think you made a good call. But not a surprising one. Incanter's Flow and RSW are the deck's carriers, so naturally, in a mirror, the one who draws them first has the upper hand. Same can be said in Control Warlock mirrors and Tickatus, or Paladin and SotF. Mirrors are a weird vacuum, that almost always highlight the importance of having faster access to your strongest cards.
So, in a nutshell, yes, Incanter's Flow is a very strong card. But there's nothing wrong with strong cards. Almost every class has access to its own fair share of strong cards. But it's the combination between the disproportional amount of strong cards that push a deck into the regions where Spell Mage and Secret (Libram) Paladin landed in.
Proud Dad of 2, Husband & Competitive Gamer
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They didn't do enough to stop mage from being prevalent. I don't know if incanters flow is the best hit, but something more should of been done.
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Well, to be honest, I don't think this card is causing the problems everyone is complaining about. Incanter's Flow was 1 of 3 cards originally introduced in AoO that gave you a reason to put only spells in your deck, and yes, if you have it in your opening hand, that's a lot of discounts. But being spread across all your cards isn't game breaking.
And back when the meta was more aggro-centric, doing "nothing" on turn 2 was pretty rough, so you might have needed to wait and play it later because you were too busy trying to keep up with damage control. So that's even less discounts.
I'd compare it to stuff like Druid ramp, where you bide your time and hopefully swing back harder, after. And so you need something to swing back with. (EG: discounted spells) Provided you draw them. Because keep in mind, it only effects spells in your deck, not hand, so your answer to the board would generally need to be drawn next. So spell mage could really use a better draw option to get there.
And now here we are, spell mage got a fantastic draw option, which made it finally function as a whole. Combine that with the reduced spell pool for lunacy, and there's the rioting mob...
TL;DR: Spell mage needs Incanter's Flow just the way it is. No single piece of the puzzle is to blame here, but Lunacy is low hanging fruit.
I mean, the deck still has good tools, it's a good deck, you can still win a lot of games that you didn't draw DoL at all, now it doesn't have the disgusting highroll potencial so early and doing nothing on turn 4 is a lot worse than not doing anything on turn 2 so I thing DoL is just gonna be cut, maybe for C'thun or maybe for Evocation.
At 2 mana incanter's flow should be a legendary card imo, being a common card makes it too consistent for such a powerful effect on curve (remove 25 mana from your deck basically), but it's also the only card that makes no-minion mage a real deck, and I really like it in my own few-minions mage, I don't want flow or spring water to be nerfed just because they are abused to their full extent by no-minion mage, they are extremely fun, fair and challenging cards when you are commited to playing minions in your deck.
You can’t really nerf incanters. The drawback to the deck is it can’t include any minions in the main list. And while the list has proven itself to not need them, it has also proven that it needs its all spell synergy cards to achieve playability.
If you push against an archetype too hard, it doesn’t just get nerfed, it dies. And it’s happened a lot in the past. The weaker classes should be brought up as opposed to the stronger ones being pushed down.
...you can run this card with minions in your deck. The downside isn't even that severe.