Should this card really be legendary? I have pulled 3 so far from boosters, and a couple of months ago he had a place in many decks. But a 1/1 cycle card (because face it that's what he is), for 2 mana doesn't seem legendary to me. He's a 1/1 for crying out loud, even nat pagel and lore walker cho have bigger bodies on them. A mage power kill blood mage, a druid power kills him, a 1/1 silver hand recruit kills him.
Am I the only one that feels he should be renamed "Skeletal wizard" and be moved to an epic quality? I just feel opening a pack to see this legendary is time and time again disappointing.
I think the same thing. People recommend Bloodmage Thalnos all the time. But I play mage, and I really think I get more damage out of a Loot Hoarder than out of one round of +1 Spell Damage. Plus, you can't play Bloodmage Thalnos as an early minion because he can't take out a 3/2 minion. I'm not going to gather the dust for a legendary just to hold it half the game so it can buff Cone of Cold or Blizzard. I don't see the value in it.
I personally hate that hes a weak body too, but he would be OP if he was epic/rare. Spell damage decks would run 2 and there would be no reason not to run 2 since they replace themselves. Hes a damn good card that makes AOE wipes hellish. I think the nastiest in druid with Thalnos + Swipe. Kills a yeti and rapes everything else for 2. Warlock is excellent as a filler too.
Well first I think it might be kinda awful if you changed a cards rarity. You would have to make it disenchant-able for 1600 aftermaking it an epic, because you need to be fair to the people who crafted it for 1600 dust. But honestly it cant. Compare it to novice engineer and loot hoarder. With novice you have same stats the draws on deathrattle (Which is arguably better) and + spell power. And with loot hoarder its -1 atk and + Spell damage. This would be really bad honestly, because you have cards of higher rarity that are undoubtable better than basic cards. thsi would be worse for the game overall.
If you stop and think about how "draw a card" is budgeted (typically calculated at 1 to 1.5 mana) Bloodmage Thlanos becomes more or less a free card with upside of bonus spell damage. Azure Drake is a good comparison between the two cards, but that card costs 5 mana and you can't cast nearly as many spells same turn as you can with thalnos. The two are very comparable and you can begin to see how budgeting of stats and abilities is done in the game.
Problem is right now is an aggro meta so a cycle card with bonus spellpower just isn't enough. Now if a more mid range or control meta develops, then you will see him played in any deck that has 5 or more damaging spells and can use a little more card draw. Shaman loves him in a slower meta, potential for a 5 mana combo with Lightning Storm that can deal as much damage as Flamestrike with some RNG.
You play him right before a spell to charge it up. Then they need to waste a hero power or attack to kill him. Or you keep a spell boost on the board. He is pure "value." But if spellpower isn't useful to you at all then you might as well play Gnomish Inventor.
The thesis behind this game is that all cards are mathematically balanced (with some allowed discretion). Cards like Deathlord have insane stats for the cost, but a huge drawback that makes the card "Balanced." The reason why Legendaries are often so much better than other cards is that they have a secret drawback: You can only have 1 copy in a deck. This is considered a drawback, and is therefore balanced by better stats/effects. Comparing directly with Novice Engineer, Bloodmage Thalnos is strictly better. If Bloodmage Thalnos was not a legendary, this would break the laws of balancing set in stone by Hearthstone's developers. Drawing a card is roughly worth ~1.5 mana. 1/1 is worth 0 mana (Wisp), so ever since Novice Engineer was nerfed from a 1/2 to a 1/1, the card is too expensive. Thalnos adds about 0.5 mana's worth of effects to the mix with Spell Damage +1, and so in a way, Thalnos is just a balanced Novice Engineer based on my analytics.
On a personal note, I'd like there to be new Legendaries like Thalnos ... The game is overrun by 5+ mana Legendaries, yet there are only like 4 below. It'd like to see more Legendary utility in that early game socket.
I don't understand why you're calling him a 1/1 cycle, he isn't. I mean if you're playing him on curve he is, but if you're playing him on curve you're usually doing it wrong. The same way you don't just play Slyvanas unless you have a plan, you don't play thalnos unless you're using his spell damage as well, unlike Azure drake(which I love), he allows spell heavy decks to access spell power early. Couple that with the cycle and I think he's perfectly fine as a 1/1. I mean when you consider loot hoarder is a very popular card not because of it's attack but it's cycle, and you consider that he's a loot hoarder with +1 spell damage you'll realize he's fine.
One shotting haunted creepers with earth shocks, doing close to flamestrike damage with a lightning storm on turn 5, doing 21 damage in a single turn with freeze mage, doing 5 damage to one creature and 2 damage to everything else on 6(pretty much both sides of a starfall combined), doing 3 damage for 0 mana with backstab, paying 4 mana to play a creature, eviscerate another creature for 5, and then potentially cycle the original creature you played? Dude is just too good.
He's not as flashy and Slyvanas, or as resilient as cairne, but when used properly he just does so much work. They'll never make him an epic, that'd make him far too good and you'd probably never see a loot hoarder in a deck again.
You play him right before a spell to charge it up. Then they need to waste a hero power or attack to kill him. Or you keep a spell boost on the board. He is pure "value." But if spellpower isn't useful to you at all then you might as well play Gnomish Inventor.
Bloodmage isn't pure value. Does he have value? yes, is he a good value card? Sure. Is he legendary value? Not hardly. Bloodmage will not turn in a game in your favor that often, if ever at all. When a legendary hits the board there needs to be a sense of "how do I do this and stay ahead". A simple "oh i'll just hero power it" isn't really worth 1600 dust IMO.
Alternately someone mentioned that Azure Drake is comparable. I disagree. Not only do you get the card no matter what from the drake (so silence doesn't matter as much). You get a 4/4 body to boot, which trades extremely well on the board compared to a 1/1, since that's what we're doing here. The drake out values the legendary bloodmage and it's a rare.
You play him right before a spell to charge it up. Then they need to waste a hero power or attack to kill him. Or you keep a spell boost on the board. He is pure "value." But if spellpower isn't useful to you at all then you might as well play Gnomish Inventor.
Bloodmage isn't pure value. Does he have value? yes, is he a good value card? Sure. Is he legendary value? Not hardly. Bloodmage will not turn in a game in your favor that often, if ever at all. When a legendary hits the board there needs to be a sense of "how do I do this and stay ahead". A simple "oh i'll just hero power it" isn't really worth 1600 dust IMO.
Alternately someone mentioned that Azure Drake is comparable. I disagree. Not only do you get the card no matter what from the drake (so silence doesn't matter as much). You get a 4/4 body to boot, which trades extremely well on the board compared to a 1/1, since that's what we're doing here. The drake out values the legendary bloodmage and it's a rare.
Yeah and if Bloodmage was a spellpower Legendary with cycling @5 mana youd see him with a similar body if not the same. The fact remains that he is excellent to combo with. In that sense he can indeed 100% shift a game in your favor, and it could only take 2 cards. He is not something someone will ask themselves the important questions they would ask when faced with rag, but this card cannot be compared to other legends in that sense. Thalnos' main advantage is the ability to combo him, get value and when he dies thins your deck.
Not quite. A card draw battlecry is better than a card draw deathrattle. So not strictly better, as for instance Acidic Swamp Ooze is strictly better than Bloodfen Raptor.
I have 3 normal 1 gold :) just hoping when deathknight comes out and he gets an undead tag he will be broken enough to be nerfed :o I would have so much dust.
Not quite. A card draw battlecry is better than a card draw deathrattle. So not strictly better, as for instance Acidic Swamp Ooze is strictly better than Bloodfen Raptor.
I know, I was just hoping no one would care to correct me :P But honestly it still comes out ahead, with "Battlecry: Draw a card" being only about half a mana better than "Deathrattle: Draw a card." Not to mention Deathrattle synergizes with Undertaker, which actually means a lot and I predict will continue to mean a lot after GvG is released. In contention with your example, though, I'd like to say Acidic is not *strictly* better than Bloodfen, as it depends on how much Beast synergy you have in your deck. However, War Golem vs. Dr. Boom, I think one would be hard pressed to come up with a way to justify how Dr. Boom is not necessarily better than War Golem beyond that you can only have 1 Dr. Boom in your deck. Another good example is Mechanical Yeti vs. Chillwind Yeti. One is a Mech with a symmetrical effect (so it's neither beneficial nor bad for either player) & has the all-important Deathrattle, the other has nothing. So I'd say 99% of the time Mechanical Yeti is better than normal Yeti.
You'll be more disappointed opening Nat Pagle every time than Bloodmage Thalnos. There are far more underserving legendaries out there.
Also, he's not just a cycle card. Play Novice Engineer if you just want to cycle, it does it better. You need to use the spell power bonus consistently for him to be worth it, which Miracle Rogue and Freeze Mage does best (both of which Blizzard screwed over pretty bad, which is why Bloodmage Thalnos is seen less).
You play him right before a spell to charge it up. Then they need to waste a hero power or attack to kill him. Or you keep a spell boost on the board. He is pure "value." But if spellpower isn't useful to you at all then you might as well play Gnomish Inventor.
Bloodmage isn't pure value. Does he have value? yes, is he a good value card? Sure. Is he legendary value? Not hardly. Bloodmage will not turn in a game in your favor that often, if ever at all. When a legendary hits the board there needs to be a sense of "how do I do this and stay ahead". A simple "oh i'll just hero power it" isn't really worth 1600 dust IMO.
Alternately someone mentioned that Azure Drake is comparable. I disagree. Not only do you get the card no matter what from the drake (so silence doesn't matter as much). You get a 4/4 body to boot, which trades extremely well on the board compared to a 1/1, since that's what we're doing here. The drake out values the legendary bloodmage and it's a rare.
Yeah and if Bloodmage was a spellpower Legendary with cycling @5 mana youd see him with a similar body if not the same. The fact remains that he is excellent to combo with. In that sense he can indeed 100% shift a game in your favor, and it could only take 2 cards. He is not something someone will ask themselves the important questions they would ask when faced with rag, but this card cannot be compared to other legends in that sense. Thalnos' main advantage is the ability to combo him, get value and when he dies thins your deck.
Your complaint seems to stem from the fact that you expect Legendary card to equate with big body. I note here that you are not complaining about big heavy Legendary cards that nobody uses, like Gruul or Nozdormu.
What Legendary really means is its value [(stats + abilities)/mana cost] is greater, relative to non-Legendary cards. They exceed value balance to such an extent that there can only be one per deck.
Extra value could have come at any mana cost, really. I wish they would release more lower-mana Legendary cards so I could get extra value earlier in my curve. Legendary class spells would also be fun.
Should this card really be legendary? I have pulled 3 so far from boosters, and a couple of months ago he had a place in many decks. But a 1/1 cycle card (because face it that's what he is), for 2 mana doesn't seem legendary to me. He's a 1/1 for crying out loud, even nat pagel and lore walker cho have bigger bodies on them. A mage power kill blood mage, a druid power kills him, a 1/1 silver hand recruit kills him.
Am I the only one that feels he should be renamed "Skeletal wizard" and be moved to an epic quality? I just feel opening a pack to see this legendary is time and time again disappointing.
I think the same thing. People recommend Bloodmage Thalnos all the time. But I play mage, and I really think I get more damage out of a Loot Hoarder than out of one round of +1 Spell Damage. Plus, you can't play Bloodmage Thalnos as an early minion because he can't take out a 3/2 minion. I'm not going to gather the dust for a legendary just to hold it half the game so it can buff Cone of Cold or Blizzard. I don't see the value in it.
I personally hate that hes a weak body too, but he would be OP if he was epic/rare. Spell damage decks would run 2 and there would be no reason not to run 2 since they replace themselves. Hes a damn good card that makes AOE wipes hellish. I think the nastiest in druid with Thalnos + Swipe. Kills a yeti and rapes everything else for 2. Warlock is excellent as a filler too.
Well first I think it might be kinda awful if you changed a cards rarity. You would have to make it disenchant-able for 1600 aftermaking it an epic, because you need to be fair to the people who crafted it for 1600 dust. But honestly it cant. Compare it to novice engineer and loot hoarder. With novice you have same stats the draws on deathrattle (Which is arguably better) and + spell power. And with loot hoarder its -1 atk and + Spell damage. This would be really bad honestly, because you have cards of higher rarity that are undoubtable better than basic cards. thsi would be worse for the game overall.
If you stop and think about how "draw a card" is budgeted (typically calculated at 1 to 1.5 mana) Bloodmage Thlanos becomes more or less a free card with upside of bonus spell damage. Azure Drake is a good comparison between the two cards, but that card costs 5 mana and you can't cast nearly as many spells same turn as you can with thalnos. The two are very comparable and you can begin to see how budgeting of stats and abilities is done in the game.
Problem is right now is an aggro meta so a cycle card with bonus spellpower just isn't enough. Now if a more mid range or control meta develops, then you will see him played in any deck that has 5 or more damaging spells and can use a little more card draw. Shaman loves him in a slower meta, potential for a 5 mana combo with Lightning Storm that can deal as much damage as Flamestrike with some RNG.
You play him right before a spell to charge it up. Then they need to waste a hero power or attack to kill him. Or you keep a spell boost on the board. He is pure "value." But if spellpower isn't useful to you at all then you might as well play Gnomish Inventor.
I really want Pirates to be a playable theme.
The thesis behind this game is that all cards are mathematically balanced (with some allowed discretion). Cards like Deathlord have insane stats for the cost, but a huge drawback that makes the card "Balanced." The reason why Legendaries are often so much better than other cards is that they have a secret drawback: You can only have 1 copy in a deck. This is considered a drawback, and is therefore balanced by better stats/effects. Comparing directly with Novice Engineer, Bloodmage Thalnos is strictly better. If Bloodmage Thalnos was not a legendary, this would break the laws of balancing set in stone by Hearthstone's developers. Drawing a card is roughly worth ~1.5 mana. 1/1 is worth 0 mana (Wisp), so ever since Novice Engineer was nerfed from a 1/2 to a 1/1, the card is too expensive. Thalnos adds about 0.5 mana's worth of effects to the mix with Spell Damage +1, and so in a way, Thalnos is just a balanced Novice Engineer based on my analytics.
On a personal note, I'd like there to be new Legendaries like Thalnos ... The game is overrun by 5+ mana Legendaries, yet there are only like 4 below. It'd like to see more Legendary utility in that early game socket.
I don't understand why you're calling him a 1/1 cycle, he isn't. I mean if you're playing him on curve he is, but if you're playing him on curve you're usually doing it wrong. The same way you don't just play Slyvanas unless you have a plan, you don't play thalnos unless you're using his spell damage as well, unlike Azure drake(which I love), he allows spell heavy decks to access spell power early. Couple that with the cycle and I think he's perfectly fine as a 1/1. I mean when you consider loot hoarder is a very popular card not because of it's attack but it's cycle, and you consider that he's a loot hoarder with +1 spell damage you'll realize he's fine.
One shotting haunted creepers with earth shocks, doing close to flamestrike damage with a lightning storm on turn 5, doing 21 damage in a single turn with freeze mage, doing 5 damage to one creature and 2 damage to everything else on 6(pretty much both sides of a starfall combined), doing 3 damage for 0 mana with backstab, paying 4 mana to play a creature, eviscerate another creature for 5, and then potentially cycle the original creature you played? Dude is just too good.
He's not as flashy and Slyvanas, or as resilient as cairne, but when used properly he just does so much work. They'll never make him an epic, that'd make him far too good and you'd probably never see a loot hoarder in a deck again.
I really hope riot listens to this idiotic suggestion. Would be on par with most of the other things they go through with.
Please let me play two Thalnos in every deck I play.
Bloodmage isn't pure value. Does he have value? yes, is he a good value card? Sure. Is he legendary value? Not hardly. Bloodmage will not turn in a game in your favor that often, if ever at all. When a legendary hits the board there needs to be a sense of "how do I do this and stay ahead". A simple "oh i'll just hero power it" isn't really worth 1600 dust IMO.
Alternately someone mentioned that Azure Drake is comparable. I disagree. Not only do you get the card no matter what from the drake (so silence doesn't matter as much). You get a 4/4 body to boot, which trades extremely well on the board compared to a 1/1, since that's what we're doing here. The drake out values the legendary bloodmage and it's a rare.
Yeah and if Bloodmage was a spellpower Legendary with cycling @5 mana youd see him with a similar body if not the same. The fact remains that he is excellent to combo with. In that sense he can indeed 100% shift a game in your favor, and it could only take 2 cards. He is not something someone will ask themselves the important questions they would ask when faced with rag, but this card cannot be compared to other legends in that sense. Thalnos' main advantage is the ability to combo him, get value and when he dies thins your deck.
Not quite. A card draw battlecry is better than a card draw deathrattle. So not strictly better, as for instance Acidic Swamp Ooze is strictly better than Bloodfen Raptor.
Bloodmage Thalnos is so good, how could you not like this card?
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I have 3 normal 1 gold :) just hoping when deathknight comes out and he gets an undead tag he will be broken enough to be nerfed :o I would have so much dust.
I know, I was just hoping no one would care to correct me :P But honestly it still comes out ahead, with "Battlecry: Draw a card" being only about half a mana better than "Deathrattle: Draw a card." Not to mention Deathrattle synergizes with Undertaker, which actually means a lot and I predict will continue to mean a lot after GvG is released. In contention with your example, though, I'd like to say Acidic is not *strictly* better than Bloodfen, as it depends on how much Beast synergy you have in your deck. However, War Golem vs. Dr. Boom, I think one would be hard pressed to come up with a way to justify how Dr. Boom is not necessarily better than War Golem beyond that you can only have 1 Dr. Boom in your deck. Another good example is Mechanical Yeti vs. Chillwind Yeti. One is a Mech with a symmetrical effect (so it's neither beneficial nor bad for either player) & has the all-important Deathrattle, the other has nothing. So I'd say 99% of the time Mechanical Yeti is better than normal Yeti.
Moved to Card Discussion.
It should be 2/2 deathrattle, or 2/1 battlecry. Anyways, a card with a personal minion name couldn't be epic or rare.
There are many Big Game Hunter on Azeroth, but only one Hemet Nesingwary , i.e.
My comments refer mostly to the wild format.
i like thalnos but agree a buff would be amazing
i prefer handlock over zoo.
You'll be more disappointed opening Nat Pagle every time than Bloodmage Thalnos. There are far more underserving legendaries out there.
Also, he's not just a cycle card. Play Novice Engineer if you just want to cycle, it does it better. You need to use the spell power bonus consistently for him to be worth it, which Miracle Rogue and Freeze Mage does best (both of which Blizzard screwed over pretty bad, which is why Bloodmage Thalnos is seen less).
Your complaint seems to stem from the fact that you expect Legendary card to equate with big body. I note here that you are not complaining about big heavy Legendary cards that nobody uses, like Gruul or Nozdormu.
What Legendary really means is its value [(stats + abilities)/mana cost] is greater, relative to non-Legendary cards. They exceed value balance to such an extent that there can only be one per deck.
Extra value could have come at any mana cost, really. I wish they would release more lower-mana Legendary cards so I could get extra value earlier in my curve. Legendary class spells would also be fun.
Feel free to add me if you play on NA! iMPose#1429