I fondly remember some people defending Zephrys the Great, and how supposedly overpowered it is.
Shallow arguments like: "It's not supposed to win you the game automatically, you're supposed to figure out the right option to pick.", and: "You just didn't play it right."
Of course, that must be it, my bad. Here's my latest personal experience with the "most well-designed card ever in Hearthstone".
It's turn 4, opponent has Spell Damage Totem on the board and Spirit of the Frog stealthed next to it. I have a Flame Imp. I play Zephrys on 4 mana, foolishly assuming that Zephrys would recognize the imminent threat of Spirit of the Frog and offer me Flare, which in this situation at 2 mana available, is the ONLY option to deal with it. Instead, it offers me and I am not even joking: Defender of Argus, Crazed Alchemist and Backstab. There is no way they're being serious right now, is what I thought to myself.
Just one example. Another one I just experienced while in the middle of writing this was Zephrys not offering Flare (AGAIN) when enemy had 2 secrets in play. Instead, it offered SI:7 Infiltrator, which isn't even close to the same value of removing both secrets, since it's more often than not more helpful, since when your opponent plays secrets, their following turns and entire tempo usually revolve around being able to make use of them.
The funniest example for me personally by far though was Zephrys not offering Shadow Word: Death despite me having 3 mana available, or any other form of removal, against the lethal threat of Archmage Antonidas on the board.
My point in all this is that the card is too inconsistent in a sense that you cannot always rely on it, even though you might think you could. You can never be sure when the artificial unintelligence might screw you over, and you can't reverse the decision of putting it in play, and sometimes you're just stuck with three choices that are one worse than the other.
Any thoughts? Serious discussion, please. I'd rather not hear aggro edgelords flare up about me playing a singleton deck and being upset that I wiped their Shaman board clear.
The more you'll play Zephrys the more you'll learn what it can and can't offer you and that's when it starts to get good.
Now you know you can't get Flare against a stealthed frog on turn 4, next time this happens you won't missplay.
I get what you're saying but I imagine it would take huge amount of work from the devs to make Zephrys fully capable of figuring out every board state and do what the player wants to do. Maybe Zephrys could have offered you a flare if there wasn't a spell damage totem, he gave you 2 answers for the spell damage, maybe this was his first priority.
The more you'll play Zephrys the more you'll learn what it can and can't offer you and that's when it starts to get good.
Now you know you can't get Flare against a stealthed frog on turn 4, next time this happens you won't missplay.
I get what you're saying but I imagine it would take huge amount of work from the devs to make Zephrys fully capable of figuring out every board state and do what the player wants to do. Maybe Zephrys could have offered you a flare if there wasn't a spell damage totem, he gave you 2 answers for the spell damage, maybe this was his first priority.
To say that this is a "misplay" on the player's part, and not a design flaw in the card, is to be a comedian.
It's an ambitious cars to design and seeing bits from interviews where they've discussed it, it seems like an idea that snowballed. There is work to do but it's a fantastic concept and generally does the job very well. I've won and lost purely due to Zephrys more times than I can count. In fact, I can't think of a card off the top of my head that I've seen swing games so dramatically and quickly. Even cards like Jaina and Guldan whilst very powerful, didn't have the almost guarantee that Zephrys offers.
I accept that there will be bugs and issues but appreciate the ambition and creativity to try it. I think people need to cut companies in general a break sometimes. No one is perfect and they do t intentionally do things to wind up the player base. Sometimes people go in way too hard on dev teams and I've seen it cause teams to remove themselves from community discussion on other games. If you go on pretty much any game forum there will be complaints, maybe accepting that not everything is exactly as you would want it could lead to a bit more patience and understanding..
Your tone comes across as really quite wound up, it's just a card game mate, shit happens sometimes but they've already said they will be pushing out more fixes for zephrys.
The more you'll play Zephrys the more you'll learn what it can and can't offer you and that's when it starts to get good.
Now you know you can't get Flare against a stealthed frog on turn 4, next time this happens you won't missplay.
I get what you're saying but I imagine it would take huge amount of work from the devs to make Zephrys fully capable of figuring out every board state and do what the player wants to do. Maybe Zephrys could have offered you a flare if there wasn't a spell damage totem, he gave you 2 answers for the spell damage, maybe this was his first priority.
To say that this is a "misplay" on the player's part, and not a design flaw in the card, is to be a comedian.
To focus on that specific part of my post and eluding the rest of it is to be a comedian. Didn't you ask for serious discussion?
The more you'll play Zephrys the more you'll learn what it can and can't offer you and that's when it starts to get good.
Now you know you can't get Flare against a stealthed frog on turn 4, next time this happens you won't missplay.
I get what you're saying but I imagine it would take huge amount of work from the devs to make Zephrys fully capable of figuring out every board state and do what the player wants to do. Maybe Zephrys could have offered you a flare if there wasn't a spell damage totem, he gave you 2 answers for the spell damage, maybe this was his first priority.
To say that this is a "misplay" on the player's part, and not a design flaw in the card, is to be a comedian.
To focus on that specific part of my post and eluding the rest of it is to be a comedian. Didn't you ask for serious discussion?
There is no excuse for it valuing the totem over literally anything else on the board. Especially, since targeting a minion in stealth at that stage of the game, Flare is literally the only possible answer. What it would take from them is for Zephrys not to ignore card text completely and pretend that minions are nothing but vanilla stat cards without any additional effects on them.
Your tone comes across as really quite wound up, it's just a card game mate, shit happens sometimes but they've already said they will be pushing out more fixes for zephrys.
Why even post if you have nothing to say? To say that it's "just a game" is so remarkably shallow that you might as well have just said: "it is what it is", only then could it be a greater non-response. Yeah, it is a game, and we're here on this forum discussing said game, so what's your point? Nothing, exactly.
OP gets faulty after a miss play and blames the card and not the player. Now they make a thread saying bad card design looking for validation. Mistake it's not the card it's the player.
OP gets faulty after a miss play and blames the card and not the player. Now they make a thread saying bad card design looking for validation. Mistake it's not the card it's the player.
Literally just reiterating what was claimed before, which I have already invalidated.
Right now Zeph doesn't properly recognize stealth and counter-stealth plays. It's right there in the pending patch notes for Tuesday. Although in this situation, I'm not sure it's going to consider a 0/3 stealth to be such a big deal that it offers you Flare.
Zeph isn't some magical card that says "Win the game on turn 4". It isn't an AI that knows the perfect card to give you. It's a programmed sub-routine that has a bunch of if-then-else statements plus some RNG (you will notice that in exact same situations, it gives you some randomness to the selections...on purpose).
I expect on Wednesday that we're going to see some posts of complaining about how they wanted a Shadow Word: Pain but instead Zeph offered Flare because of the 0/3 stealth on the board. Just can't please everyone.
Right now Zeph doesn't properly recognize stealth and counter-stealth plays. It's right there in the pending patch notes for Tuesday. Although in this situation, I'm not sure it's going to consider a 0/3 stealth to be such a big deal that it offers you Flare.
Zeph isn't some magical card that says "Win the game on turn 4". It isn't an AI that knows the perfect card to give you. It's a programmed sub-routine that has a bunch of if-then-else statements plus some RNG (you will notice that in exact same situations, it gives you some randomness to the selections...on purpose).
I expect on Wednesday that we're going to see some posts of complaining about how they wanted a Shadow Word: Pain but instead Zeph offered Flare because of the 0/3 stealth on the board. Just can't please everyone.
Ah, here we finally have the exact Blizzard employee responsible, explaining in detail how the card, in fact, works in every given situation. Thank you. This is what I was looking for.
I get the frustration, but it has happened to everyone playing that card at some point. Zep definitely has an issue with secrets and stealth but my god it is an insanely good card. Yes it is frustrating but learn from it and play it differently next time. For example, the play where it gave you the infiltrator might have been avoided by only leaving 2 mana so you would be guaranteed flare. The possibilities are literally endless so a lot of the time you have to help zep out a bit
Your tone comes across as really quite wound up, it's just a card game mate, shit happens sometimes but they've already said they will be pushing out more fixes for zephrys.
Why even post if you have nothing to say? To say that it's "just a game" is so remarkably shallow that you might as well have just said: "it is what it is", only then could it be a greater non-response. Yeah, it is a game, and we're here on this forum discussing said game, so what's your point? Nothing, exactly.
@YellowDesease Remember this is a fanboys site. There are selfproclamed entities here, so called people, shrouded themselves with the holy task to defend Blizzard and unintelligent card design by default. Asking intelligent questions here with high risk of getting answers like 'it is just a cardgame.'
As if 'just a cardgame' legitimize unfairness, target audience design (Zephrys), and skill insulting card design. Expect scorn from the mindless.
Your tone comes across as really quite wound up, it's just a card game mate, shit happens sometimes but they've already said they will be pushing out more fixes for zephrys.
Why even post if you have nothing to say? To say that it's "just a game" is so remarkably shallow that you might as well have just said: "it is what it is", only then could it be a greater non-response. Yeah, it is a game, and we're here on this forum discussing said game, so what's your point? Nothing, exactly.
@YellowDesease Remember this is a fanboys site. There are selfproclamed entities here, so called people, shrouded themselves with the holy task to defend Blizzard and card design by default. Asking intelligent questions here with high risk of getting answers like 'it is just a cardgame.'
As if 'just a cardgame' legitimize unfairness, target audience design (Zephrys), and skill insulting card design. Expect scorn from the mindless.
You're right, but I have to cease pursuing this conversation for now, since I got another warning pending.
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I fondly remember some people defending Zephrys the Great, and how supposedly overpowered it is.
Shallow arguments like: "It's not supposed to win you the game automatically, you're supposed to figure out the right option to pick.", and: "You just didn't play it right."
Of course, that must be it, my bad. Here's my latest personal experience with the "most well-designed card ever in Hearthstone".
It's turn 4, opponent has Spell Damage Totem on the board and Spirit of the Frog stealthed next to it. I have a Flame Imp. I play Zephrys on 4 mana, foolishly assuming that Zephrys would recognize the imminent threat of Spirit of the Frog and offer me Flare, which in this situation at 2 mana available, is the ONLY option to deal with it. Instead, it offers me and I am not even joking: Defender of Argus, Crazed Alchemist and Backstab. There is no way they're being serious right now, is what I thought to myself.
Just one example. Another one I just experienced while in the middle of writing this was Zephrys not offering Flare (AGAIN) when enemy had 2 secrets in play. Instead, it offered SI:7 Infiltrator, which isn't even close to the same value of removing both secrets, since it's more often than not more helpful, since when your opponent plays secrets, their following turns and entire tempo usually revolve around being able to make use of them.
The funniest example for me personally by far though was Zephrys not offering Shadow Word: Death despite me having 3 mana available, or any other form of removal, against the lethal threat of Archmage Antonidas on the board.
My point in all this is that the card is too inconsistent in a sense that you cannot always rely on it, even though you might think you could. You can never be sure when the artificial unintelligence might screw you over, and you can't reverse the decision of putting it in play, and sometimes you're just stuck with three choices that are one worse than the other.
Any thoughts? Serious discussion, please. I'd rather not hear aggro edgelords flare up about me playing a singleton deck and being upset that I wiped their Shaman board clear.
The more you'll play Zephrys the more you'll learn what it can and can't offer you and that's when it starts to get good.
Now you know you can't get Flare against a stealthed frog on turn 4, next time this happens you won't missplay.
I get what you're saying but I imagine it would take huge amount of work from the devs to make Zephrys fully capable of figuring out every board state and do what the player wants to do. Maybe Zephrys could have offered you a flare if there wasn't a spell damage totem, he gave you 2 answers for the spell damage, maybe this was his first priority.
To say that this is a "misplay" on the player's part, and not a design flaw in the card, is to be a comedian.
It's an ambitious cars to design and seeing bits from interviews where they've discussed it, it seems like an idea that snowballed. There is work to do but it's a fantastic concept and generally does the job very well. I've won and lost purely due to Zephrys more times than I can count. In fact, I can't think of a card off the top of my head that I've seen swing games so dramatically and quickly. Even cards like Jaina and Guldan whilst very powerful, didn't have the almost guarantee that Zephrys offers.
I accept that there will be bugs and issues but appreciate the ambition and creativity to try it. I think people need to cut companies in general a break sometimes. No one is perfect and they do t intentionally do things to wind up the player base. Sometimes people go in way too hard on dev teams and I've seen it cause teams to remove themselves from community discussion on other games. If you go on pretty much any game forum there will be complaints, maybe accepting that not everything is exactly as you would want it could lead to a bit more patience and understanding..
Your tone comes across as really quite wound up, it's just a card game mate, shit happens sometimes but they've already said they will be pushing out more fixes for zephrys.
To focus on that specific part of my post and eluding the rest of it is to be a comedian. Didn't you ask for serious discussion?
There is no excuse for it valuing the totem over literally anything else on the board. Especially, since targeting a minion in stealth at that stage of the game, Flare is literally the only possible answer. What it would take from them is for Zephrys not to ignore card text completely and pretend that minions are nothing but vanilla stat cards without any additional effects on them.
calm down buddy. It's a card game.
The concept of Zephrys is a very complicated one, and it most likely will never work perfectly.
It does work very well currently, tho. And that is good enough for me...
Why even post if you have nothing to say? To say that it's "just a game" is so remarkably shallow that you might as well have just said: "it is what it is", only then could it be a greater non-response. Yeah, it is a game, and we're here on this forum discussing said game, so what's your point? Nothing, exactly.
OP gets faulty after a miss play and blames the card and not the player. Now they make a thread saying bad card design looking for validation. Mistake it's not the card it's the player.
Literally just reiterating what was claimed before, which I have already invalidated.
bad player is bad
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Favorite Cards: 1. Lord Jaraxxus | 2. Malygos| 3. Edwin VanCleef | 4. Zephrys the Great| 5. Deathwing
Step 1: Ask for serious discussion only...
Step 2: Proceed to insult anyone that tries to srsly discuss.
Step 3: ?
Step 4: Profit!
Right now Zeph doesn't properly recognize stealth and counter-stealth plays. It's right there in the pending patch notes for Tuesday. Although in this situation, I'm not sure it's going to consider a 0/3 stealth to be such a big deal that it offers you Flare.
Zeph isn't some magical card that says "Win the game on turn 4". It isn't an AI that knows the perfect card to give you. It's a programmed sub-routine that has a bunch of if-then-else statements plus some RNG (you will notice that in exact same situations, it gives you some randomness to the selections...on purpose).
I expect on Wednesday that we're going to see some posts of complaining about how they wanted a Shadow Word: Pain but instead Zeph offered Flare because of the 0/3 stealth on the board. Just can't please everyone.
Ah, here we finally have the exact Blizzard employee responsible, explaining in detail how the card, in fact, works in every given situation. Thank you. This is what I was looking for.
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I get the frustration, but it has happened to everyone playing that card at some point. Zep definitely has an issue with secrets and stealth but my god it is an insanely good card. Yes it is frustrating but learn from it and play it differently next time. For example, the play where it gave you the infiltrator might have been avoided by only leaving 2 mana so you would be guaranteed flare. The possibilities are literally endless so a lot of the time you have to help zep out a bit
There is only my justice now
@YellowDesease Remember this is a fanboys site. There are selfproclamed entities here, so called people, shrouded themselves with the holy task to defend Blizzard and unintelligent card design by default. Asking intelligent questions here with high risk of getting answers like 'it is just a cardgame.'
As if 'just a cardgame' legitimize unfairness, target audience design (Zephrys), and skill insulting card design. Expect scorn from the mindless.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
You're right, but I have to cease pursuing this conversation for now, since I got another warning pending.