Yeah I just don't see why people are freaking out over this card, this doesn't seem as strong as Keleseth was, there isn't that many dragons that really want to be have their cost reduced by 2 except for Maylgos. Like sure it's nice and all but it's nothing insane really. You also have to...you know...draw said dragons..or hope to not draw them? 2 mana less to be able to play something like Ysera doesn't feel all that thrilling to me, it's still an expensive play. You also have to play a lot of dragons in your deck to get the most value out of this, it's even worse by turn 4 or later because you decrease the amount of dragons you reduce the cost of in your deck if you draw them. It's also unreliable for combos if you have to rely on this to reduce the cost of Malygos. It's a win more effect in my eyes and it's not even a comeback mechanic so I doubt this will be as good in practice that a lot of people seem to think.
Team 5 really upping the dust cost of decks with all these auto-include legendaries. Guess I'm not playing dragon decks unless I craft this card. ‾\_(ツ)_/‾
I've thought about it some more and I don't think it's that insane. With Keleseth you could easily run 25+ minion deck and get the benefit very quickly and consistently. With Dragons its going to be really hard to find that many good ones. I think a typical dragon deck will have 12-15, so you only get the benefit once every couple turns. Sometimes things will line up really well, like you get to play an Evasive Drakonid 2 turns early, or clear the board with one of the breath attacks while developing a good sized minion, but that's not going to happen too often. I still think it's really good but not as game breaking as my first impression.
Yeah I just don't see why people are freaking out over this card, this doesn't seem as strong as Keleseth was, there isn't that many dragons that really want to be have their cost reduced by 2 except for Maylgos. Like sure it's nice and all but it's nothing insane really. You also have to...you know...draw said dragons..or hope to not draw them? 2 mana less to be able to play something like Ysera doesn't feel all that thrilling to me, it's still an expensive play. You also have to play a lot of dragons in your deck to get the most value out of this, it's even worse by turn 4 or later because you decrease the amount of dragons you reduce the cost of in your deck if you draw them. It's also unreliable for combos if you have to rely on this to reduce the cost of Malygos. It's a win more effect in my eyes and it's not even a comeback mechanic so I doubt this will be as good in practice that a lot of people seem to think.
Yeah well I remember Keleseth was severly underrated at first so maybe you're doing the same thing with Frizz.
And I don't get your point about Malygos being the only dragon who wants cost reduction. Every card in the game wants cost reduction. You're thinking about combos so Malygos comes to mind, but cost reduction also offers tempo and value. "it's still an expansive play" makes no sense. Ysera or Alexstrazsa at 7 mana is a million times better than Ysera at 9 mana, both on curve or in the late game.
Frizz would be a decent card even if it targeted just 1 dragon like Dragon Consort, that's how good this card is (I know it targets the deck not the hand, but 4 mana 5/4 is way better than 5 mana 5/5 for this effect). Overall the comparison with Keleseth makes very little sense. +1/+1 stats and -2 mana cost are very, very different buffs. While the +1/+1 will add small incremental tempo over time as you normally play minions, the -2 mana cost can win you the game at any time with a single buffed card played way earlier or way more efficiently than it should have been.
People don't need to worry about playing frizz on curve. Frizz on curve means free win. But frizz on turn 25 with 3 cards left in your deck including 2 dragons, that's still value, 4 mana total reduction, it's not bad at all for a vanilla stated minion, depending on what dragons it hits can be potentially huge, even this late in the game.
This is an auto-include in any dragon deck, both standard and wild--it's a cost reducing minion for a tribe that is typically high-cost and high-power with decent neutral stats. This doesn't mean that it defines the meta; rather, it supplements any meta deck with dragons and makes it even more powerful.
While I agree, this is similar to Keleseth and the high roll potential, that is not it's actual strength. This card is good and meta-defining simply because we KNOW that dragons are the focus of this new expansion. We also know from the dragons we have seen, this mana cost reduction is going to hit a good number of dragons and very powerful ones.
For example, Kronx Dragonhoof costs 6 mana normally. With this card, costs 4 mana. If you haven't drawn your Galakrond yet, now you will. If you are already Galakrond, you get to ALSO play the devastation card on the same turn and possibly do more with your turn. Edit - my bad. Not a dragon. Ignore this part of the post for inaccuracy. I got too excited and thought the art was dragon like. It pays to RTFC.
Dragon Breeder will allow you to play a dragon and put another copy in your hand on the same turn. Like Ysera.
How about Crowd Roaster for 5 mana? A 5 mana 7/4 that basically kills most minions is insanely good.
Malygos for 7 mana seems really good too. It means ALL classes can now pull of Malygos combos without the crazy support needed and mana reduction that other classes offer.
Onyxia for 7 mana, combined with the Druid buff spell seems like a crazy power play as well.
Emeriss for 8 mana seems very playable in Hunter. Even if you fill your hand with 1/1 rush minions, you get a crazy ability to swing boards. Also, a 1 mana Primordial Explorer seems crazy powerful and it gets you another dragon to play on the same turn. Veranus for 4 mana seems crazy when you combine it with unleash the hounds for 7 mana.
For mage, a 2 mana Azure Explorer gives you spell damage and another dragon too, like Kalecgos, one of the strongest Dragons for Mage right now.
Priest just gets to break the game though with Fate Weaver. Any dragons you already drew in your hand give you a reduced cost. But if you were able to reduce them by 2 with this card, this means you can reduce their cost again. On top of it, Galakrond for Priest is a board control card and will act as their board clears.
With all this mana reduction and tempo gain, most decks probably will not be able to run very many board clears. This means big turns of dropping 2 and 3 dragons on a board. The greed is real here.
The new deathwing for warrior at 6 mana is a board clear without needing to play Brawl. Copy it with War Master Voone and you keep the mana reduction. Warrior will be absolutely powerful and we havent seen enough of their cards yet either.
This card is going to win games outright if drawn and played on turns 3 or 4. The tempo is far too good to ignore. The mana reduction actually makes some dragons OP at reduced mana costs.
While I agree, this is similar to Keleseth and the high roll potential, that is not it's actual strength. This card is good and meta-defining simply because we KNOW that dragons are the focus of this new expansion. We also know from the dragons we have seen, this mana cost reduction is going to hit a good number of dragons and very powerful ones.
For example, Kronx Dragonhoof costs 6 mana normally. With this card, costs 4 mana. If you haven't drawn your Galakrond yet, now you will. If you are already Galakrond, you get to ALSO play the devastation card on the same turn and possibly do more with your turn.
It's playable at 4 mana. I don't think people really understand what meta defining actually means. It means a card that an entire deck will be around and people will need to play decks that counter it. This is not even close. First it only effects dragons in your deck and not hand. It's effect is going to be slow unless your deck has lots of draw. Even then for the stats it's playable but not great. Will mainly see play for combo decks. I think it will be too slow in the meta. If the card said hand and deck it would be a playable but far from an auto include in dragon decks.
While I agree, this is similar to Keleseth and the high roll potential, that is not it's actual strength. This card is good and meta-defining simply because we KNOW that dragons are the focus of this new expansion. We also know from the dragons we have seen, this mana cost reduction is going to hit a good number of dragons and very powerful ones.
For example, Kronx Dragonhoof costs 6 mana normally. With this card, costs 4 mana. If you haven't drawn your Galakrond yet, now you will. If you are already Galakrond, you get to ALSO play the devastation card on the same turn and possibly do more with your turn.
Yep, edited my post. My bad. Either way, I am fairly confident we are getting more dragons and I am sure there will be a number of them that will benefit, despite my goof.
Worse yet, Shaman Quest with double battlecry to reduce by 4. Not that I think thats the best build for the battlecry Quest deck, but if there is enough Dragon and Battlecry support, it might just work.
That's truly scary if it does. I am probably not the only one who wants to try that out either. Even if it becomes a meme or fun deck, I think that alone is worth trying to abuse the mana reduction.
I will gladly take a 5 mana Ysera that I can play Dragon Breeder on for 7 mana total.
Or Baleful Banker the reduced mana Dragon and then use Shudderwock to discount the card again.
Worse yet, Shaman Quest with double battlecry to reduce by 4. Not that I think thats the best build for the battlecry Quest deck, but if there is enough Dragon and Battlecry support, it might just work.
That's truly scary if it does. I am probably not the only one who wants to try that out either. Even if it becomes a meme or fun deck, I think that alone is worth trying to abuse the mana reduction.
I will gladly take a 5 mana Ysera that I can play Dragon Breeder on for 7 mana total.
Or Baleful Banker the reduced mana Dragon and then use Shudderwock to discount the card again.
Much shennagans await this card.
This card doesn't get played in Quest Shaman. It is not even f!@#ing close.
This is a good card, and will probably see some play. But most of the comments in this thread are absurd beyond all belief.
It's playable at 4 mana. I don't think people really understand what meta defining actually means. It means a card that an entire deck will be around and people will need to play decks that counter it. This is not even close. First it only effects dragons in your deck and not hand. It's effect is going to be slow unless your deck has lots of draw. Even then for the stats it's playable but not great. Will mainly see play for combo decks. I think it will be too slow in the meta. If the card said hand and deck it would be a playable but far from an auto include in dragon decks.
No.
Meta-defining means: Define the meta. When dragon-decks are garbage, and by printing this card, all of a sudden everyone plays dragon decks, this card is meta-defining. The meta is the state of the game, which decks are played and which are not.
What you described is a build-around card, like C'Thun. There is a single card, usually powerful, so that you build you deck around it. But if no one plays said deck, it is not meta-defining.
Usually, powerful build-around cards happen to be meta-defining, but arent't necessarily. Frizz Kindleroost seems to be both.
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In a dragon meta it's meta defining the meta after that it's just playable to bad
Just wait for the companion card that says "Battlecry: draw 2 dragons from your deck" or some other nonsense.
a 2 Tick emperor for dragons with 2 less health and 2 less mana cost, yes please.
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seems like a free craft until nerf hits ;)
Yeah I just don't see why people are freaking out over this card, this doesn't seem as strong as Keleseth was, there isn't that many dragons that really want to be have their cost reduced by 2 except for Maylgos. Like sure it's nice and all but it's nothing insane really. You also have to...you know...draw said dragons..or hope to not draw them? 2 mana less to be able to play something like Ysera doesn't feel all that thrilling to me, it's still an expensive play. You also have to play a lot of dragons in your deck to get the most value out of this, it's even worse by turn 4 or later because you decrease the amount of dragons you reduce the cost of in your deck if you draw them. It's also unreliable for combos if you have to rely on this to reduce the cost of Malygos. It's a win more effect in my eyes and it's not even a comeback mechanic so I doubt this will be as good in practice that a lot of people seem to think.
Team 5 really upping the dust cost of decks with all these auto-include legendaries. Guess I'm not playing dragon decks unless I craft this card. ‾\_(ツ)_/‾
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I've thought about it some more and I don't think it's that insane. With Keleseth you could easily run 25+ minion deck and get the benefit very quickly and consistently. With Dragons its going to be really hard to find that many good ones. I think a typical dragon deck will have 12-15, so you only get the benefit once every couple turns. Sometimes things will line up really well, like you get to play an Evasive Drakonid 2 turns early, or clear the board with one of the breath attacks while developing a good sized minion, but that's not going to happen too often. I still think it's really good but not as game breaking as my first impression.
Yeah well I remember Keleseth was severly underrated at first so maybe you're doing the same thing with Frizz.
And I don't get your point about Malygos being the only dragon who wants cost reduction. Every card in the game wants cost reduction. You're thinking about combos so Malygos comes to mind, but cost reduction also offers tempo and value. "it's still an expansive play" makes no sense. Ysera or Alexstrazsa at 7 mana is a million times better than Ysera at 9 mana, both on curve or in the late game.
Frizz would be a decent card even if it targeted just 1 dragon like Dragon Consort, that's how good this card is (I know it targets the deck not the hand, but 4 mana 5/4 is way better than 5 mana 5/5 for this effect). Overall the comparison with Keleseth makes very little sense. +1/+1 stats and -2 mana cost are very, very different buffs. While the +1/+1 will add small incremental tempo over time as you normally play minions, the -2 mana cost can win you the game at any time with a single buffed card played way earlier or way more efficiently than it should have been.
People don't need to worry about playing frizz on curve. Frizz on curve means free win. But frizz on turn 25 with 3 cards left in your deck including 2 dragons, that's still value, 4 mana total reduction, it's not bad at all for a vanilla stated minion, depending on what dragons it hits can be potentially huge, even this late in the game.
This is so gonna get nerfed in the first post-release update.....
Cost reduction cards are -always- broken in some manner or form. Anyone underrating this card is bananas.
This is an auto-include in any dragon deck, both standard and wild--it's a cost reducing minion for a tribe that is typically high-cost and high-power with decent neutral stats. This doesn't mean that it defines the meta; rather, it supplements any meta deck with dragons and makes it even more powerful.
While I agree, this is similar to Keleseth and the high roll potential, that is not it's actual strength. This card is good and meta-defining simply because we KNOW that dragons are the focus of this new expansion. We also know from the dragons we have seen, this mana cost reduction is going to hit a good number of dragons and very powerful ones.
For example, Kronx Dragonhoof costs 6 mana normally. With this card, costs 4 mana. If you haven't drawn your Galakrond yet, now you will. If you are already Galakrond, you get to ALSO play the devastation card on the same turn and possibly do more with your turn. Edit - my bad. Not a dragon. Ignore this part of the post for inaccuracy. I got too excited and thought the art was dragon like. It pays to RTFC.
Dragon Breeder will allow you to play a dragon and put another copy in your hand on the same turn. Like Ysera.
How about Crowd Roaster for 5 mana? A 5 mana 7/4 that basically kills most minions is insanely good.
Malygos for 7 mana seems really good too. It means ALL classes can now pull of Malygos combos without the crazy support needed and mana reduction that other classes offer.
Onyxia for 7 mana, combined with the Druid buff spell seems like a crazy power play as well.
Emeriss for 8 mana seems very playable in Hunter. Even if you fill your hand with 1/1 rush minions, you get a crazy ability to swing boards. Also, a 1 mana Primordial Explorer seems crazy powerful and it gets you another dragon to play on the same turn. Veranus for 4 mana seems crazy when you combine it with unleash the hounds for 7 mana.
For mage, a 2 mana Azure Explorer gives you spell damage and another dragon too, like Kalecgos, one of the strongest Dragons for Mage right now.
Priest just gets to break the game though with Fate Weaver. Any dragons you already drew in your hand give you a reduced cost. But if you were able to reduce them by 2 with this card, this means you can reduce their cost again. On top of it, Galakrond for Priest is a board control card and will act as their board clears.
With all this mana reduction and tempo gain, most decks probably will not be able to run very many board clears. This means big turns of dropping 2 and 3 dragons on a board. The greed is real here.
The new deathwing for warrior at 6 mana is a board clear without needing to play Brawl. Copy it with War Master Voone and you keep the mana reduction. Warrior will be absolutely powerful and we havent seen enough of their cards yet either.
This card is going to win games outright if drawn and played on turns 3 or 4. The tempo is far too good to ignore. The mana reduction actually makes some dragons OP at reduced mana costs.
Kronx Dragonhoof is not a dragon.
It's playable at 4 mana. I don't think people really understand what meta defining actually means. It means a card that an entire deck will be around and people will need to play decks that counter it. This is not even close. First it only effects dragons in your deck and not hand. It's effect is going to be slow unless your deck has lots of draw. Even then for the stats it's playable but not great. Will mainly see play for combo decks. I think it will be too slow in the meta. If the card said hand and deck it would be a playable but far from an auto include in dragon decks.
Yep, edited my post. My bad. Either way, I am fairly confident we are getting more dragons and I am sure there will be a number of them that will benefit, despite my goof.
Shadowstep-Keleseth anyone ? *shudder*
Worse yet, Shaman Quest with double battlecry to reduce by 4. Not that I think thats the best build for the battlecry Quest deck, but if there is enough Dragon and Battlecry support, it might just work.
That's truly scary if it does. I am probably not the only one who wants to try that out either. Even if it becomes a meme or fun deck, I think that alone is worth trying to abuse the mana reduction.
I will gladly take a 5 mana Ysera that I can play Dragon Breeder on for 7 mana total.
Or Baleful Banker the reduced mana Dragon and then use Shudderwock to discount the card again.
Much shennagans await this card.
New most overrated card in the set.
Everyone is complaining about things this card "can do" but not taking the second step to actually think if that's a thing worth playing.
This is nothing like Keleseth.
This is nothing like LPG.
This card doesn't get played in Quest Shaman. It is not even f!@#ing close.
This is a good card, and will probably see some play. But most of the comments in this thread are absurd beyond all belief.
No.
Meta-defining means: Define the meta. When dragon-decks are garbage, and by printing this card, all of a sudden everyone plays dragon decks, this card is meta-defining. The meta is the state of the game, which decks are played and which are not.
What you described is a build-around card, like C'Thun. There is a single card, usually powerful, so that you build you deck around it. But if no one plays said deck, it is not meta-defining.
Usually, powerful build-around cards happen to be meta-defining, but arent't necessarily. Frizz Kindleroost seems to be both.