Though I agree about class identity I'm not sure overall.
Yes, zoolock e.g. can suddenly find healing for you, but you need to make sacrifices. Most decks like zoolock run duplicate cards because they are oppressive enough to work. When you start running zoolock with only singleton cards, I doubt the deck would still be good. The idea behind a singleton deck is that you make certain sacrifices in not running duplicate cards that fit your archetype.
But the idea of having it limited to your own class or neutral is something I could imagine happening in the future (though doubtfull). The idea of having Zephrys only work if you didn't have duplicates from the beginning sound a little stupid to me. I remember some Mill rogues who ran lots of dupes but still teched in a Reno Jackson just for the late game. Most people probably hate on it but it requires a different strategy in some cases which I think makes your gameplan a little different and add a little more dynamics to one's gameplay.
But this is just how I view it. Overall I really love Zephrys (Wild player alert) and though there may have been or still may be some cards that aren't always found when needed. It's a card that requires a little bit of thought about when to play. E.g. I've played a mage who coined out a Deathlord on turn 2, played Zephrys on 3 and cast inner fire on the deathlord, needless to say I lost this game. Frustrating yet very clever and a nice move on my opponent's behalf.
To be perfectly honest, you kind of contradicted yourself in this instance. Your idea of Zoolock not giving up their ability to 2 copies of their strongest cards is one I can get behind. But Zephrys' power is high enough to warrant inclusion without giving that up anyways, which was my original point. You also stated that exact point, in your example of some Mill Rogue players.
I really like Zephrys, but my gut tells me it'll be included in a lot of decks that do not run the singleton package. It should've been an extra support-card to re-awaken Highlander decks, and it did just that. For that, I'm very grateful. But now, seeing as it's a Neutral card, it just gets included in a lot of non-singleton decks.
I see what you mean, and come to think of it... I understand highlander hunter is a thing now and still pretty aggressive (which i would not have thought would work, but very cool nonetheless).
I don't think Zephrys is strong enough on it's own to carry any deck, then again I am a wild player and i would say my knowledge of standard is very minimal. When you say it's included in a lot of non singleton decks, you have any examples? Overall I would think it would't work very well. The "Reno in Mill Rogue" Also has never been a very good deck but fun to pull of when you do.
Though I agree about class identity I'm not sure overall.
Yes, zoolock e.g. can suddenly find healing for you, but you need to make sacrifices. Most decks like zoolock run duplicate cards because they are oppressive enough to work. When you start running zoolock with only singleton cards, I doubt the deck would still be good. The idea behind a singleton deck is that you make certain sacrifices in not running duplicate cards that fit your archetype.
But the idea of having it limited to your own class or neutral is something I could imagine happening in the future (though doubtfull). The idea of having Zephrys only work if you didn't have duplicates from the beginning sound a little stupid to me. I remember some Mill rogues who ran lots of dupes but still teched in a Reno Jackson just for the late game. Most people probably hate on it but it requires a different strategy in some cases which I think makes your gameplan a little different and add a little more dynamics to one's gameplay.
But this is just how I view it. Overall I really love Zephrys (Wild player alert) and though there may have been or still may be some cards that aren't always found when needed. It's a card that requires a little bit of thought about when to play. E.g. I've played a mage who coined out a Deathlord on turn 2, played Zephrys on 3 and cast inner fire on the deathlord, needless to say I lost this game. Frustrating yet very clever and a nice move on my opponent's behalf.
To be perfectly honest, you kind of contradicted yourself in this instance. Your idea of Zoolock not giving up their ability to 2 copies of their strongest cards is one I can get behind. But Zephrys' power is high enough to warrant inclusion without giving that up anyways, which was my original point. You also stated that exact point, in your example of some Mill Rogue players.
I really like Zephrys, but my gut tells me it'll be included in a lot of decks that do not run the singleton package. It should've been an extra support-card to re-awaken Highlander decks, and it did just that. For that, I'm very grateful. But now, seeing as it's a Neutral card, it just gets included in a lot of non-singleton decks.
I see what you mean, and come to think of it... I understand highlander hunter is a thing now and still pretty aggressive (which i would not have thought would work, but very cool nonetheless).
I don't think Zephrys is strong enough on it's own to carry any deck, then again I am a wild player and i would say my knowledge of standard is very minimal. When you say it's included in a lot of non singleton decks, you have any examples? Overall I would think it would't work very well. The "Reno in Mill Rogue" Also has never been a very good deck but fun to pull of when you do.
While I'll agree to that statement, not one single card can carry a deck on its own, except maybe past-Barnes, where he kicks off the whole shebang. People long thought that Dr. Boom, Mad Genius carried Control Warrior, but the truth is, the entire control shell of Warrior is just very strong.
As examples go, Zephrys is used as a standalone win-con, and because of this, is used in aggressive decks, like Tempo Quest Druid and even some iterations of Tempo Rogue. It just needs to be a finisher, and it's more than capable to.
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Dad, husband, gamer, fueled by coffee.
Currently playing Dragon Galakrond Priest, Dragon Galakrond Warrior and Highlander Dragon Hunter.
You can’t play around the card. Its broken and it’s stupid, should be wild only,
How can you not play around it ? It's not like playing around a turn 9 Flamestrike or try to not let your opponent have a wide board to prevent Bloodlust lethal is very hard.
The only thing wrong with it is when you've reclaimed the board from an aggro deck only for them to play zephrys and very unfairly take it back from you through shenanigans. Even then the problem is not Zeph, it's the fact that Blizzard has ruined the game for good by giving Aggro decks so much draw that there is literally no downside to being aggro now, fuck it, you can even be a singleton aggro deck because God doesn't exist
Lol at people talking about class identities. Murloc paladins can now not only play Tip the Scales for 1 mana, but they also have Zephrys and Chef Nomi in their deck too. How cool is that?
I agree that Zephrys, while being quite fun, really breaks the game. A nerf to 3 mana will probably be unavoidable.
If Zephrys gets nerfed, I could see him becoming a 2/2 so he gets cut from most nonhighlander decks. Making him 3 mana will kill him in standard and significantly weaken wild highlander decks.
To be honest I really don´t like this card! I have much respect for Blizz making such a complicated card, but I don´t like the way they did. A Card giving topdeck is not what I personally like and expect from a card. If you have the luck of draw, ok. But not that way. This card is just as irritating as DK Jaina for me. I´m so sad I got this awful card from my packs. I never ever wanna play this, cause imo it doesn´t feel fair to play against. I know I´m nearly the only one. But thats my few of things. And it is too easy to play this card in a non-highlander-deck. So this isn´t really a restiction.
I have preordered for the first time (I'm playing from RR), and pulled all of the needed cards for Highlander Hunter (including Zephrys). I need to craft only Zul'jin and some stuff that I want to play in that deck and I'm all set. It is the first time I will have deck with every card I want in it, and it is hella fun deck! I wanted to build HH in January but I didn't have any useful cards for it (not even Reno). I also enjoy Highlander decks cos I play only Commander as MTG player. So I personally really just want to use it in H. decks.
So if Zephrys will get nerfed I wish they would tweak his stats and not content, as I would be really sad about it... I play only wild and it feels so good to have Twisting nether or transform effects (against those Rez Priests, Deathrattle Rogues etc.). So Zephrys at 3 mana would be bit worse in some situations. If Zephrys would only pick cards from Basic, Classic of your class you are playing then it is basically not worth playing in HH... what am I gonna get? Kill command? Unleash the hounds? No I need that clear and tranform effect or I will be dead to this decks insane value!
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"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
It is the greatest card ever made. He told me so himself. I think its fine. It's a tool of all trades and thats what I like about it. Literally works with whatever you're going for. For the sacrifice of doubling up on good cards I'd say keep it.
It is the greatest card ever made. He told me so himself. I think its fine. It's a tool of all trades and thats what I like about it. Literally works with whatever you're going for. For the sacrifice of doubling up on good cards I'd say keep it.
Indeed if you start losing because the opponent happen to outclass, outmanoeuvre and outwit you, you can always play Zephfrys the Rigged....sorry the Great.
Thumbs up for mindlessness.
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We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
I think the focus needs to go back to class identity. Zephrys breaks this concept by giving classes cards they don't have access to, including wins that should have never have happened. What's worse is they gave him an elemental tag so even decks that don't normally run him, can just randomly get it from any elemental generator cards.
Classes need weaknesses otherwise all the decks end up being the same. Why not just print a Neutral spell at this point that says "Choose One: Do 3 damage to all minions. Give your minions +2 attack. Gain 5 life and Draw 3 cards."
That way classes and decks don't have to think about deck building, you have all your bases covered.
This whole discussion about class identity as it relates to Zephyrs is really flimsy. That's what neutral cards always do and have always done. Zeph just kicks it up a notch in very specific situations.
Rogue and Warlock "don't have heal," but there's lots of heal in neutral. Some decks "don't have taunt," but there's lots of taunt in neutral. Some classes don't have much draw, but there's lots of draw in neutral. Etc.
Zeph is no different than any of this. You guys just don't like it because it's ending a game you were unable to win before he came down. Similar shit could could be said about a vast number of cards in the past and going forward.
In a lot of ways he's an omni-tech card. That's really good. It's incredibly powerful. But the cost you're paying is that you're a highlander deck, or you are at the very end of your game.
I think the focus needs to go back to class identity. Zephrys breaks this concept by giving classes cards they don't have access to, including wins that should have never have happened. What's worse is they gave him an elemental tag so even decks that don't normally run him, can just randomly get it from any elemental generator cards.
Classes need weaknesses otherwise all the decks end up being the same. Why not just print a Neutral spell at this point that says "Choose One: Do 3 damage to all minions. Give your minions +2 attack. Gain 5 life and Draw 3 cards."
That way classes and decks don't have to think about deck building, you have all your bases covered.
Right-on, and I firmly believe that Zephfrys is a new tool to control, 'balance' overall win rates.
This whole discussion about class identity as it relates to Zephyrs is really flimsy. That's what neutral cards always do and have always done. Zeph just kicks it up a notch in very specific situations.
Rogue and Warlock "don't have heal," but there's lots of heal in neutral. Some decks "don't have taunt," but there's lots of taunt in neutral. Some classes don't have much draw, but there's lots of draw in neutral. Etc.
Zeph is no different than any of this. You guys just don't like it because it's ending a game you were unable to win before he came down. Similar shit could could be said about a vast number of cards in the past and going forward.
In a lot of ways he's an omni-tech card. That's really good. It's incredibly powerful. But the cost you're paying is that you're a highlander deck, or you are at the very end of your game.
As I said previously, I don't mind the design aspect of the card or the power level in general. But I don't agree with the idea that class identity should be ignored, abandoned or forgotten about.
Just because neutral healing cards exist, doesn't mean all classes should have access to healing. Typically these neutral healing cards are sub optimal to play in certain style decks or even classes. For example, is Hunter really going to throw in the 1 drop 2/2 Deathrattle minion that heals both players for 4 health? No. Hunter is trying to race to do as much damage as possible. That card was designed for Control classes that don't bother doing damage to their opponent until mid to late game, which means the healing is usually one sided.
But Zilliax and Zephrys are so good at what they do, you can put these into ANY deck, including aggro. These cards are no longer deck or class specific cards even if they never say so. These cards are simply good no matter what. Those are dangerous for the long term health of the game and it means classes can cheat. Hunter SHOULD NOT have healing. Yet, if the Hunter plays the Mech version, Zilliax can heal far above the 3 attack that Zilliax offers by its stats alone.
Without class identities, means no class weaknesses. And that means the only real difference to classes is the hero power. To me, that seems like a really boring game. You have 9 classes with some overlap between them. That is more than enough to give players choices. The fact that Hunter and Rogue can heal better than the 'healing' classes is absurd to me.
Zephrys is precisely one card that can discover something outside of what your hero class is designed to do. That is a one time reward for building your deck with a certain limitation. This does not shit on the concept of class identity - your class still plays to its strengths and can be beaten through its weaknesses, but you have one card that plug one of those weaknesses. Its not like you've got Rogue decks running around with 6 AoE board clears or Druids packing quadruple Siphon Soul. Zephrys is a fun card and certainly adds more to the game than he takes away from it.
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I see what you mean, and come to think of it... I understand highlander hunter is a thing now and still pretty aggressive (which i would not have thought would work, but very cool nonetheless).
I don't think Zephrys is strong enough on it's own to carry any deck, then again I am a wild player and i would say my knowledge of standard is very minimal. When you say it's included in a lot of non singleton decks, you have any examples? Overall I would think it would't work very well. The "Reno in Mill Rogue" Also has never been a very good deck but fun to pull of when you do.
after playing with and against zephrys for a while
i think this card actually breaks the game
While I'll agree to that statement, not one single card can carry a deck on its own, except maybe past-Barnes, where he kicks off the whole shebang. People long thought that Dr. Boom, Mad Genius carried Control Warrior, but the truth is, the entire control shell of Warrior is just very strong.
As examples go, Zephrys is used as a standalone win-con, and because of this, is used in aggressive decks, like Tempo Quest Druid and even some iterations of Tempo Rogue. It just needs to be a finisher, and it's more than capable to.
Dad, husband, gamer, fueled by coffee.
Currently playing Dragon Galakrond Priest, Dragon Galakrond Warrior and Highlander Dragon Hunter.
I agree that Zephrys, while being quite fun, really breaks the game. A nerf to 3 mana will probably be unavoidable.
How can you not play around it ? It's not like playing around a turn 9 Flamestrike or try to not let your opponent have a wide board to prevent Bloodlust lethal is very hard.
Don't overextend.
The only thing wrong with it is when you've reclaimed the board from an aggro deck only for them to play zephrys and very unfairly take it back from you through shenanigans. Even then the problem is not Zeph, it's the fact that Blizzard has ruined the game for good by giving Aggro decks so much draw that there is literally no downside to being aggro now, fuck it, you can even be a singleton aggro deck because God doesn't exist
Lol at people talking about class identities. Murloc paladins can now not only play Tip the Scales for 1 mana, but they also have Zephrys and Chef Nomi in their deck too. How cool is that?
If Zephrys gets nerfed, I could see him becoming a 2/2 so he gets cut from most nonhighlander decks. Making him 3 mana will kill him in standard and significantly weaken wild highlander decks.
To be honest I really don´t like this card! I have much respect for Blizz making such a complicated card, but I don´t like the way they did. A Card giving topdeck is not what I personally like and expect from a card. If you have the luck of draw, ok. But not that way. This card is just as irritating as DK Jaina for me. I´m so sad I got this awful card from my packs. I never ever wanna play this, cause imo it doesn´t feel fair to play against. I know I´m nearly the only one. But thats my few of things. And it is too easy to play this card in a non-highlander-deck. So this isn´t really a restiction.
I have preordered for the first time (I'm playing from RR), and pulled all of the needed cards for Highlander Hunter (including Zephrys). I need to craft only Zul'jin and some stuff that I want to play in that deck and I'm all set. It is the first time I will have deck with every card I want in it, and it is hella fun deck! I wanted to build HH in January but I didn't have any useful cards for it (not even Reno). I also enjoy Highlander decks cos I play only Commander as MTG player. So I personally really just want to use it in H. decks.
So if Zephrys will get nerfed I wish they would tweak his stats and not content, as I would be really sad about it... I play only wild and it feels so good to have Twisting nether or transform effects (against those Rez Priests, Deathrattle Rogues etc.). So Zephrys at 3 mana would be bit worse in some situations. If Zephrys would only pick cards from Basic, Classic of your class you are playing then it is basically not worth playing in HH... what am I gonna get? Kill command? Unleash the hounds? No I need that clear and tranform effect or I will be dead to this decks insane value!
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
If you notice you are playing against a singleton deck, you should expect to see Zephrys.
At that point, you need to try to bait him out without over-committing. It's not easy, but that is how it's done.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
It is the greatest card ever made. He told me so himself. I think its fine. It's a tool of all trades and thats what I like about it. Literally works with whatever you're going for. For the sacrifice of doubling up on good cards I'd say keep it.
Indeed if you start losing because the opponent happen to outclass, outmanoeuvre and outwit you, you can always play Zephfrys the Rigged....sorry the Great.
Thumbs up for mindlessness.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
I think the focus needs to go back to class identity. Zephrys breaks this concept by giving classes cards they don't have access to, including wins that should have never have happened. What's worse is they gave him an elemental tag so even decks that don't normally run him, can just randomly get it from any elemental generator cards.
Classes need weaknesses otherwise all the decks end up being the same. Why not just print a Neutral spell at this point that says "Choose One: Do 3 damage to all minions. Give your minions +2 attack. Gain 5 life and Draw 3 cards."
That way classes and decks don't have to think about deck building, you have all your bases covered.
This whole discussion about class identity as it relates to Zephyrs is really flimsy. That's what neutral cards always do and have always done. Zeph just kicks it up a notch in very specific situations.
Rogue and Warlock "don't have heal," but there's lots of heal in neutral.
Some decks "don't have taunt," but there's lots of taunt in neutral.
Some classes don't have much draw, but there's lots of draw in neutral.
Etc.
Zeph is no different than any of this. You guys just don't like it because it's ending a game you were unable to win before he came down. Similar shit could could be said about a vast number of cards in the past and going forward.
In a lot of ways he's an omni-tech card. That's really good. It's incredibly powerful. But the cost you're paying is that you're a highlander deck, or you are at the very end of your game.
Right-on, and I firmly believe that Zephfrys is a new tool to control, 'balance' overall win rates.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
As I said previously, I don't mind the design aspect of the card or the power level in general. But I don't agree with the idea that class identity should be ignored, abandoned or forgotten about.
Just because neutral healing cards exist, doesn't mean all classes should have access to healing. Typically these neutral healing cards are sub optimal to play in certain style decks or even classes. For example, is Hunter really going to throw in the 1 drop 2/2 Deathrattle minion that heals both players for 4 health? No. Hunter is trying to race to do as much damage as possible. That card was designed for Control classes that don't bother doing damage to their opponent until mid to late game, which means the healing is usually one sided.
But Zilliax and Zephrys are so good at what they do, you can put these into ANY deck, including aggro. These cards are no longer deck or class specific cards even if they never say so. These cards are simply good no matter what. Those are dangerous for the long term health of the game and it means classes can cheat. Hunter SHOULD NOT have healing. Yet, if the Hunter plays the Mech version, Zilliax can heal far above the 3 attack that Zilliax offers by its stats alone.
Without class identities, means no class weaknesses. And that means the only real difference to classes is the hero power. To me, that seems like a really boring game. You have 9 classes with some overlap between them. That is more than enough to give players choices. The fact that Hunter and Rogue can heal better than the 'healing' classes is absurd to me.
I didn't even read your article bc that was the biggest hater bullshit headline I've read all week
Zephrys is precisely one card that can discover something outside of what your hero class is designed to do. That is a one time reward for building your deck with a certain limitation. This does not shit on the concept of class identity - your class still plays to its strengths and can be beaten through its weaknesses, but you have one card that plug one of those weaknesses. Its not like you've got Rogue decks running around with 6 AoE board clears or Druids packing quadruple Siphon Soul. Zephrys is a fun card and certainly adds more to the game than he takes away from it.