Like others have said, this kind of deck usually thrives in the early, unrefined days of a new meta. It might be gone in a week, never to be seen again outside dreams and memes around rank 20.
But if it does somehow stick around for the long haul, I think it needs the The Caverns Below treatment. The deck might be bad, but I can't remember many decks I've found it less fun and/or interesting to face off against - win or lose.
I'm pretty sure people were saying the Priest Quest was OP and surely going to be nerfed before the x-pac hit. I suspect your predictions are just as misguided.
I'm pretty sure people were saying the Priest Quest was OP and surely going to be nerfed before the x-pac hit. I suspect your predictions are just as misguided.
The priest quest is technically OP, its just overshadowed by other OP cards/decks currently.. the priest quest would be better with better reborn minions, right now there aren't many good ones or they're too expensive to be reliable.
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ZhalZhak#2315 @ EU/NA
I joke a lot, if you take anything I say seriously, well, shame on you :p
I really hope you're wrong. The Phaoris deck is not broken, it's just a cool creative deck that highrolls. It would be broken if there were some way to reliably tutor lens early, but short of that it's just a coin flip high roll deck.
This trick need a massive downside in the deck build to work, can fail and can be countered by any control deck or aggro with a good start.
Blizzard don't nerfed Barnes, a much more problematic high roll card for years and the restriction to work is far less than murlock paladin deck.
I agree that this probably won't be nerfed. But in what world does Barnes require less restrictions than this combo. In a nutshell:
Barnes = You cannot run minions that don't work with the effect. Much in the same way Reno decks can't run any duplicates without making their deck drastically worse, numbers wise. So Barnes basically warps your entire deck building process. This works in Big Priest, where I agree it is annoying, but it has worked nowhere else to my knowledge (besides "kind of" in Spell Hunter of old, and I think that it's in Dane's big deathrattle rogue, but that's a meme deck).
Tip the Scales combo = You can't run extra spells in your murloc deck. You know, the kind of deck that doesn't want spells anyways. So no, this basically has no real restriction on your deck building, especially compared to Barnes.
I agree that the card should and probably will see a nerf. It would be a little more fair at 5 mana instead of 4.
The card is EXTREMELY strong with Tip the Scales, especially if you’ve completed the Making Mummies quest. I’ve been lucky with landing 2x Murloc Warleader and 2x Murloc on board at turn 5. It’s ridiculous value and super fast.. It’s usually game over if the board survives until the next turn.
That said there is so much removal in the current meta. So your opponent can potentially clear most or all of your board during their next turn.
I'm pretty sure people were saying the Priest Quest was OP and surely going to be nerfed before the x-pac hit. I suspect your predictions are just as misguided.
The priest quest is technically OP, its just overshadowed by other OP cards/decks currently.. the priest quest would be better with better reborn minions, right now there aren't many good ones or they're too expensive to be reliable.
Let's discuss the odds to see what were actually at with this deck. Chance to be on coin 50%, chance to draw lens (on hard mulligan) by turn 3 is 66%, so that play is accomplished 33% of games. Chance to play a lens on turn 4 no coin is 70%.
Chance to lens into lens is very relevant and can serve as a tempo killer, that number is harder to shorthand a total, but if you're sitting on a Tip its 50/50 and with all 3 spells in deck it's still 33.3%. Chance of drawing a Tip before playing a lens is roughly 45%. Chance of drawing a lens with lens is around 42%.
So to actually play tip the scales on turn 4 is around 19%. Chance to play on turn 5 is around 40%. This is not exact but close.
This gives us a base. It does OP things that snowball in these draw scenarios. A coin lens turn for Tip is going to be game over almost every time. Warrior cannot warpath 3 times but can brawl, mage cannot blizzard or Reno, druid can starfall but quest isn't done, aggro decks cannot withstand that temp shift, rogue is probably hopeless vs fin on turns 4-6, only priest can punish with mass hysteria and priest play rate is usual 3% for the whole season.
How greedy is your deck? If its highlander you may have problems, there are not enough premier removal/counterplay cards to have only one of each for any hero. If your running a quest list without enough spells/counterplay it could be rough.By turn 6 decks should have answers or have created problems. Turn 5 can be game over and that's the highroll nature of the deck.
Seems bad to play against or play with. Fun for a little while and then go 8 games without a turn 4-5 Tip and go on tilt.
Let's discuss the odds to see what were actually at with this deck. Chance to be on coin 50%, chance to draw lens (on hard mulligan) by turn 3 is 66%, so that play is accomplished 33% of games. Chance to play a lens on turn 4 no coin is 70%.
Chance to lens into lens is very relevant and can serve as a tempo killer, that number is harder to shorthand a total, but if you're sitting on a Tip its 50/50 and with all 3 spells in deck it's still 33.3%. Chance of drawing a Tip before playing a lens is roughly 45%. Chance of drawing a lens with lens is around 42%.
So to actually play tip the scales on turn 4 is around 13%. Chance to play on turn 5 is around 27%.
This gives us a base. It does OP things that snowball in these draw scenarios. A coin lens turn for Tip is going to be game over almost every time. Warrior cannot warpath 3 times but can brawl, mage cannot blizzard or Reno, druid can starfall but quest isn't done, aggro decks cannot withstand that temp shift, rogue is probably hopeless vs fin on turns 4-6, only priest can punish with mass hysteria and priest play rate is usual 3% for the whole season.
How greedy is your deck? If its highlander you may have problems, there are not enough premier removal/counterplay cards to have only one of each for any hero. If your running a quest list without enough spells/counterplay it could be rough.By turn 6 decks should have answers or have created problems. Turn 5 can be game over and that's the highroll nature of the deck.
Seems bad to play against or play with. Fun for a little while and then go 8 games without a turn 4-5 Tip and go on tilt.
Lens Nerf would also nerf big pala to ground. I realy hope they dont nerf lense. The Deck itsself is pretty inconsistent. Its Not even close to top winratio. Keleseth, Barnes we're way worse imo.
"So no, this basically has no real restriction on your deck building, especially compared to Barnes."
Except that you need Murlocs.
A LOT of them, even the bad ones.
Play "A LOT" of murlocs in your murloc deck is a deck building restriction? That's the whole thing with those decks, they play all the decent murlocs always. In fact, paladin runs what, 9 non-murloc cards? So you're playing 21 murlocs. Compare to current shaman version, running 26 murlocs (and two of the remaining 4 cards are copies of Soul of the Murloc). As far as murloc decks go, historically and currently, murloc paladin with Tip the Scales runs less murlocs than the mean.
I think it’s funny cause most people on here will say Barnes in wild is still to high rolley OP garbage, but putting 7 Murlocs on the board turn 4 with 40+ dmg and 4-5hp each worth of stats is okay. And the logic is that warrior has brawl so it’s okay. Or they lose if they don’t have it by turn 6-7, which isn’t even really true. There are only a couple classes that can deal with that turn 4 move and if your dead the next turn there is no counter play or fighting your way back into the game it’s just over turn 5 from 100% to zero. I don’t think it’ll be nerfed but I do think the design is dog shit. Unlike late game OTK’s, this doesn’t give you 10+ turns and 15+ cards to win or prepare.it gives you 9 cards and only 3 classes have the chance in those 9 cards to clear the board.
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Like others have said, this kind of deck usually thrives in the early, unrefined days of a new meta. It might be gone in a week, never to be seen again outside dreams and memes around rank 20.
But if it does somehow stick around for the long haul, I think it needs the The Caverns Below treatment. The deck might be bad, but I can't remember many decks I've found it less fun and/or interesting to face off against - win or lose.
Naga Sand Witch and Prismatic Lens will both be nerfed, almost guaranteed.
ZhalZhak#2315 @ EU/NA
I joke a lot, if you take anything I say seriously, well, shame on you :p
It's too much of an inconsistent highroll to get nerfed.
I'm pretty sure people were saying the Priest Quest was OP and surely going to be nerfed before the x-pac hit. I suspect your predictions are just as misguided.
The priest quest is technically OP, its just overshadowed by other OP cards/decks currently.. the priest quest would be better with better reborn minions, right now there aren't many good ones or they're too expensive to be reliable.
ZhalZhak#2315 @ EU/NA
I joke a lot, if you take anything I say seriously, well, shame on you :p
This trick need a massive downside in the deck build to work, can fail and can be countered by any control deck or aggro with a good start.
Blizzard don't nerfed Barnes, a much more problematic high roll card for years and the restriction to work is far less than murlock paladin deck.
Relax, when the experiment time's over you will see control warrior return to the top and eat this fish deck alive.
Just wait a little.
I really hope you're wrong. The Phaoris deck is not broken, it's just a cool creative deck that highrolls. It would be broken if there were some way to reliably tutor lens early, but short of that it's just a coin flip high roll deck.
I agree that this probably won't be nerfed. But in what world does Barnes require less restrictions than this combo. In a nutshell:
Barnes = You cannot run minions that don't work with the effect. Much in the same way Reno decks can't run any duplicates without making their deck drastically worse, numbers wise. So Barnes basically warps your entire deck building process. This works in Big Priest, where I agree it is annoying, but it has worked nowhere else to my knowledge (besides "kind of" in Spell Hunter of old, and I think that it's in Dane's big deathrattle rogue, but that's a meme deck).
Tip the Scales combo = You can't run extra spells in your murloc deck. You know, the kind of deck that doesn't want spells anyways. So no, this basically has no real restriction on your deck building, especially compared to Barnes.
I agree that the card should and probably will see a nerf. It would be a little more fair at 5 mana instead of 4.
The card is EXTREMELY strong with Tip the Scales, especially if you’ve completed the Making Mummies quest. I’ve been lucky with landing 2x Murloc Warleader and 2x Murloc on board at turn 5. It’s ridiculous value and super fast.. It’s usually game over if the board survives until the next turn.
That said there is so much removal in the current meta. So your opponent can potentially clear most or all of your board during their next turn.
WUT is "technically OP"?
Let's discuss the odds to see what were actually at with this deck. Chance to be on coin 50%, chance to draw lens (on hard mulligan) by turn 3 is 66%, so that play is accomplished 33% of games. Chance to play a lens on turn 4 no coin is 70%.
Chance to lens into lens is very relevant and can serve as a tempo killer, that number is harder to shorthand a total, but if you're sitting on a Tip its 50/50 and with all 3 spells in deck it's still 33.3%. Chance of drawing a Tip before playing a lens is roughly 45%. Chance of drawing a lens with lens is around 42%.
So to actually play tip the scales on turn 4 is around 19%. Chance to play on turn 5 is around 40%. This is not exact but close.
This gives us a base. It does OP things that snowball in these draw scenarios. A coin lens turn for Tip is going to be game over almost every time. Warrior cannot warpath 3 times but can brawl, mage cannot blizzard or Reno, druid can starfall but quest isn't done, aggro decks cannot withstand that temp shift, rogue is probably hopeless vs fin on turns 4-6, only priest can punish with mass hysteria and priest play rate is usual 3% for the whole season.
How greedy is your deck? If its highlander you may have problems, there are not enough premier removal/counterplay cards to have only one of each for any hero. If your running a quest list without enough spells/counterplay it could be rough.By turn 6 decks should have answers or have created problems. Turn 5 can be game over and that's the highroll nature of the deck.
Seems bad to play against or play with. Fun for a little while and then go 8 games without a turn 4-5 Tip and go on tilt.
Great answer! Well done buddy!
"So no, this basically has no real restriction on your deck building, especially compared to Barnes."
Except that you need Murlocs.
A LOT of them, even the bad ones.
Lens Nerf would also nerf big pala to ground. I realy hope they dont nerf lense. The Deck itsself is pretty inconsistent. Its Not even close to top winratio. Keleseth, Barnes we're way worse imo.
Let's start with the Tier 1 Warrior/Mage issues with the first round of nerfs. Not this early hype, soon to lose more often deck.
I've played a lot of games with this deck. If you don't draw the lens, you can run out of steam by turn 5-6.
And sometimes even when you do draw the lens, it doesn't work out as you wish. Or, your opponent has an answer.
I don't feel this deck is nearly as oppressive as Warrior or Mage.
Play "A LOT" of murlocs in your murloc deck is a deck building restriction? That's the whole thing with those decks, they play all the decent murlocs always. In fact, paladin runs what, 9 non-murloc cards? So you're playing 21 murlocs. Compare to current shaman version, running 26 murlocs (and two of the remaining 4 cards are copies of Soul of the Murloc). As far as murloc decks go, historically and currently, murloc paladin with Tip the Scales runs less murlocs than the mean.
I haven't lost to a Murloc Paladin in 4 days.
The secret, you ask?
I play AOE.
I think it’s funny cause most people on here will say Barnes in wild is still to high rolley OP garbage, but putting 7 Murlocs on the board turn 4 with 40+ dmg and 4-5hp each worth of stats is okay. And the logic is that warrior has brawl so it’s okay. Or they lose if they don’t have it by turn 6-7, which isn’t even really true. There are only a couple classes that can deal with that turn 4 move and if your dead the next turn there is no counter play or fighting your way back into the game it’s just over turn 5 from 100% to zero. I don’t think it’ll be nerfed but I do think the design is dog shit. Unlike late game OTK’s, this doesn’t give you 10+ turns and 15+ cards to win or prepare.it gives you 9 cards and only 3 classes have the chance in those 9 cards to clear the board.