Right, and the question you have to ask is "how many resurrects do you need in order to make up for the 4 attack?" If you're consistently res'ing two or more times, you're using a total of 3 card slots minimum for 12/24 in taunt stats (total of 36), which is arguably better than using two card slots for 16/16 in taunt stats (total of 32). Otherwise if you're consistently only getting one or less resurrect, you're taking up one to two card slots for 8/16 in taunt stats (total of 24), whereas with double Ironbark you'd be getting 16/16 (total of 32) in taunt stats for the same number of card slots.
Also, in a meta where Silence is high value, you'll have to bait out Spellbreakers before playing this because your opponent will have drawn it by turn 8 almost every time. This getting silenced is so much worse than an Ironbark getting silenced, and you have to take that into consideration as well.
You're making up numbers for a deck and a metagame that don't exist to justify your weak comparison.
Obviously, if you're playing a deck where you'd play this, your cards have synergy. You're not just playing stuff like Druid Flash Heal to enable this. You're playing Druid Flash Heal because it works in your deck. Then you add this because it works with Druid Flash Heal and the other things in your deck.
I know this is blatantly obvious, but I feel like I have to say it anyway because you're missing it. There's a reason people don't play Chillwind Yeti and Boulderfist Ogre. Vanilla piles of stats don't have synergy with your deck.
Things that do have synergy with your deck can be understatted because you're looking for the combos, not necessarily the stats.
Oakbark is a vanilla pile of stats. This isn't. Something like this extends the value of the cards you've already put in your deck.
Once more, this is not to say that this deck is good, or complete. But you can't just say to every 6 mana card, "this is worse than boulderfist ogre" just because they both cost 6 mana.
Just because I want to draw comparisons, this is far more forgiving than Sherazin, Corpse Flower because restoring 5 health is pretty easy and the 4/8 taunt stat lines makes it easy to keep on the board. I think this is going to find a good home in restore health.
You're making up numbers for a deck and a metagame that don't exist to justify your weak comparison.
....those are literally the stats of the cards. Maybe I'm way off base here because I only played to rank 5 last month, but people still play Spellbreaker right? They didn't add some rule that reduces the chances of drawing certain cards by turn 8 did they?
Obviously, if you're playing a deck where you'd play this, your cards have synergy. You're not just playing stuff like Druid Flash Heal to enable this. You're playing Druid Flash Heal because it works in your deck. Then you add this because it works with Druid Flash Heal and the other things in your deck.
Right, and then the next obvious questions are, 1) is there enough healing cards that you'll be able to have a few available to you in the late game? and 2) if not, can you afford to hold on to the couple in your deck for synergy with Lucentbark so it actually gets value? If the answer is no, then this is worse than Ironbark.
I know this is blatantly obvious, but I feel like I have to say it anyway because you're missing it. There's a reason people don't play Chillwind Yeti and Boulderfist Ogre. Vanilla piles of stats don't have synergy with your deck.
Things that do have synergy with your deck can be understatted because you're looking for the combos, not necessarily the stats.
Oakbark is a vanilla pile of stats. This isn't. Something like this extends the value of the cards you've already put in your deck.
People didn't play Lich King exclusively for the generated card, they played it for the stats and the fact that it had taunt. "Pile of stats" isn't completely irrelevant but it varies in relevance depending on the stage of the game and the matchup. People don't play Yeti and Ogre because better cards exist. If you really believe this is the best 8-drop for Druids then by all means play it.
Once more, this is not to say that this deck is good, or complete. But you can't just say to every 6 mana card, "this is worse than boulderfist ogre" just because they both cost 6 mana.
People make those comparisons all the time. "This is just a Spider Tank most of the time and Spider Tank wouldn't be played." You make comparisons to a baseline of stats and ask if the effect offsets the worse stats. I gave conditions in which the stats WOULD be offset by the effect, and gave conditions in which it wouldn't. I don't see the problem here.
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A person isn't playing this because he needs a minion to play on 8 mana. A person isn't even playing this because he needs a big taunt A person is playing this because he wants to extend the value of the things already in his deck.
The purpose of Ironbark and this is different, so the comparison is not apt.
A person isn't playing this because he needs a minion to play on 8 mana. A person isn't even playing this because he needs a big taunt A person is playing this because he wants to extend the value of the things already in his deck.
The purpose of Ironbark and this is different, so the comparison is not apt.
Again, you have to ask yourself if there are enough things that heal that Druid can afford to save some for the late game, and if not, can Druid survive while holding dead healing cards in their hand because their deck revolves around a mediocre legendary being resurrected multiple times?
Also it seems kind of.....bad to include 8-drops that you not playing on 8, not comboing for OTK, and not having immediate board impact.
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Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
Again, you have to ask yourself if there are enough things that heal that Druid can afford to save some for the late game, and if not, can Druid survive while holding dead healing cards in their hand because their deck revolves around a mediocre legendary being resurrected multiple times?
Also it seems kind of.....bad to include 8-drops that you not playing on 8, not comboing for OTK, and not having immediate board impact.
I don't know. I haven't seen all the cards. Even after I've seen them, I don't know. But that isn't my point and it never has been. In fact, I've been very clear about that.
My point is that you were making a bad and misleading comparison.
Well, if Resto Druid is a thing, this will be in it... Still, it's tough to know. It's pretty slow. And if resto Druid is not a thing, this will not see play.
I'm not gonna judge this card based on silence because the existence of silence doesn't prevent deathrattles from being really good. There's also things like faceless manipulator and Floop to use with this and lets be real here, how many decks run more than one silence card? On the topic of Floop, if you Floop this and it dies does it get ressurected as a 3/4 or a 4/8
This card won't see play unless there's a LOT more support for a heal druid. Heal paladin got tons of support in Rumble and it's still barely playable. For 8 mana and a board slot while dormant I don't see this card seeing play anytime soon.
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Oh, Lethal - where did you go? I miss you all the time.
This card is really just one stat point away or one cost too many from being playable. It got the stats of a 6 drop but you are playing it for 8. It only works if you have a lot of good healing synergy and I think we simply don't have enough to support this minion. No one isn't going to run Healing Touch for this. I know that we have another cheaper option but there are other healing cards that needs support too.
It reminds me too much of Ozruk. It requires too much build around to be just decent when there are stronger plays out there.
....those are literally the stats of the cards. Maybe I'm way off base here because I only played to rank 5 last month, but people still play Spellbreaker right? They didn't add some rule that reduces the chances of drawing certain cards by turn 8 did they?
Spellbreaker is a weak play for one, and for another if you're playing a deck with multiple taunts or another big threat you just baited it out. And you didn't remove the 4/8 in stats.
4 attack is enough to trade with effectively and 8 health is decently difficult to remove. Has less of a board impact than Priomordial Drake but this is just so sticky.
Using healing is also really good for a deck that wants to run this card anyway.
I don't know if Druid has enough of a late game or generates enough value now, though. That's the biggest concern.
Heal for 5 is quite difficult to pull of multiple times especially if you want to use the stags early as well. Don't think this will be that strong to merit running it. If only the hero power healed instead of giving armor.
....those are literally the stats of the cards. Maybe I'm way off base here because I only played to rank 5 last month, but people still play Spellbreaker right? They didn't add some rule that reduces the chances of drawing certain cards by turn 8 did they?
Spellbreaker is a weak play for one, and for another if you're playing a deck with multiple taunts or another big threat you just baited it out. And you didn't remove the 4/8 in stats.
4 attack is enough to trade with effectively and 8 health is decently difficult to remove. Has less of a board impact than Priomordial Drake but this is just so sticky.
Using healing is also really good for a deck that wants to run this card anyway.
I don't know if Druid has enough of a late game or generates enough value now, though. That's the biggest concern.
That's a good case for Ironbark Protector being better. You're going to have to be able to res this multiple times in order to realize the value of it. Since it doesn't have Rush, that means we're talking about realizing that value over 3 turns minimum (assuming two res's is the breaking point). I think the determining factors are going to be:
Will Druid have enough healing/armor gain such that you'll have res activators in the late game?
If not, will Druid have enough sustain such that you can simply hold on to the few healing cards that activate Lucentbark until you need them?
Will the meta be slow enough such that an 4/8 Taunt with an effect is better than an 8/8 Taunt with no effect?
And to this end, slow enough that a 4/8 Taunt with a Deathrattle effect is playable? (again, remember Primordial Drake?)
Will Silence effects be a strong enough tech such that Lucentbark is not playable?
If so, will Druid have enough bait targets?
If not, Lucentbark is unplayable.
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I mean... yeah there are a lot of big question marks about the card's synergies. It's a completely synergy dependent card and this is the first set of the year.
I think there's more than enough healing to make this card work pretty well now, but what's the win condition of that sort of deck? The silence argument is just... I mean... yeah, a taunt gets countered by silence if you're up against aggro. That's true of every Taunt in the game.
I mean... yeah there are a lot of big question marks about the card's synergies. It's a completely synergy dependent card and this is the first set of the year.
I think there's more than enough healing to make this card work pretty well now, but what's the win condition of that sort of deck? The silence argument is just... I mean... yeah, a taunt gets countered by silence if you're up against aggro. That's true of every Taunt in the game.
Legendaries need to be one or more of these things to see play:
Combo enabler
Unconditional high value
Immediate board impact
Cheap + effective when combined with something else
Flexible and can do more than one of the above, but at a cost
This has none of these qualities. I don't think it will see play.
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You're making up numbers for a deck and a metagame that don't exist to justify your weak comparison.
Obviously, if you're playing a deck where you'd play this, your cards have synergy. You're not just playing stuff like Druid Flash Heal to enable this. You're playing Druid Flash Heal because it works in your deck. Then you add this because it works with Druid Flash Heal and the other things in your deck.
I know this is blatantly obvious, but I feel like I have to say it anyway because you're missing it. There's a reason people don't play Chillwind Yeti and Boulderfist Ogre. Vanilla piles of stats don't have synergy with your deck.
Things that do have synergy with your deck can be understatted because you're looking for the combos, not necessarily the stats.
Oakbark is a vanilla pile of stats. This isn't. Something like this extends the value of the cards you've already put in your deck.
Once more, this is not to say that this deck is good, or complete. But you can't just say to every 6 mana card, "this is worse than boulderfist ogre" just because they both cost 6 mana.
Just because I want to draw comparisons, this is far more forgiving than Sherazin, Corpse Flower because restoring 5 health is pretty easy and the 4/8 taunt stat lines makes it easy to keep on the board. I think this is going to find a good home in restore health.
Cool mechanic. I can't see druids gaining 5 health very often after playing this card but it's interesting.
....those are literally the stats of the cards. Maybe I'm way off base here because I only played to rank 5 last month, but people still play Spellbreaker right? They didn't add some rule that reduces the chances of drawing certain cards by turn 8 did they?
Right, and then the next obvious questions are, 1) is there enough healing cards that you'll be able to have a few available to you in the late game? and 2) if not, can you afford to hold on to the couple in your deck for synergy with Lucentbark so it actually gets value? If the answer is no, then this is worse than Ironbark.
People didn't play Lich King exclusively for the generated card, they played it for the stats and the fact that it had taunt. "Pile of stats" isn't completely irrelevant but it varies in relevance depending on the stage of the game and the matchup. People don't play Yeti and Ogre because better cards exist. If you really believe this is the best 8-drop for Druids then by all means play it.
People make those comparisons all the time. "This is just a Spider Tank most of the time and Spider Tank wouldn't be played." You make comparisons to a baseline of stats and ask if the effect offsets the worse stats. I gave conditions in which the stats WOULD be offset by the effect, and gave conditions in which it wouldn't. I don't see the problem here.
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Searchable with melon so quite consistant i guess.
A person isn't playing this because he needs a minion to play on 8 mana.
A person isn't even playing this because he needs a big taunt
A person is playing this because he wants to extend the value of the things already in his deck.
The purpose of Ironbark and this is different, so the comparison is not apt.
What an amazing card. Having Taunt is probably too much
Again, you have to ask yourself if there are enough things that heal that Druid can afford to save some for the late game, and if not, can Druid survive while holding dead healing cards in their hand because their deck revolves around a mediocre legendary being resurrected multiple times?
Also it seems kind of.....bad to include 8-drops that you not playing on 8, not comboing for OTK, and not having immediate board impact.
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I don't know. I haven't seen all the cards. Even after I've seen them, I don't know.
But that isn't my point and it never has been. In fact, I've been very clear about that.
My point is that you were making a bad and misleading comparison.
Sherazin? What they do to you?
Well, if Resto Druid is a thing, this will be in it... Still, it's tough to know. It's pretty slow. And if resto Druid is not a thing, this will not see play.
I'm not gonna judge this card based on silence because the existence of silence doesn't prevent deathrattles from being really good. There's also things like faceless manipulator and Floop to use with this and lets be real here, how many decks run more than one silence card? On the topic of Floop, if you Floop this and it dies does it get ressurected as a 3/4 or a 4/8
This card won't see play unless there's a LOT more support for a heal druid. Heal paladin got tons of support in Rumble and it's still barely playable. For 8 mana and a board slot while dormant I don't see this card seeing play anytime soon.
Oh, Lethal - where did you go? I miss you all the time.
This card is really just one stat point away or one cost too many from being playable. It got the stats of a 6 drop but you are playing it for 8. It only works if you have a lot of good healing synergy and I think we simply don't have enough to support this minion. No one isn't going to run Healing Touch for this. I know that we have another cheaper option but there are other healing cards that needs support too.
It reminds me too much of Ozruk. It requires too much build around to be just decent when there are stronger plays out there.
Spellbreaker is a weak play for one, and for another if you're playing a deck with multiple taunts or another big threat you just baited it out. And you didn't remove the 4/8 in stats.
4 attack is enough to trade with effectively and 8 health is decently difficult to remove. Has less of a board impact than Priomordial Drake but this is just so sticky.
Using healing is also really good for a deck that wants to run this card anyway.
I don't know if Druid has enough of a late game or generates enough value now, though. That's the biggest concern.
Heal for 5 is quite difficult to pull of multiple times especially if you want to use the stags early as well.
Don't think this will be that strong to merit running it. If only the hero power healed instead of giving armor.
I will never get a golden druid, one deck more boring then the other...
Going from Walling Up, to Armor Up and now Heal Up...
Only thing that is missing now is some new 1 mana spell which upgrades with healing, so you get rewarded for stalling
That's a good case for Ironbark Protector being better. You're going to have to be able to res this multiple times in order to realize the value of it. Since it doesn't have Rush, that means we're talking about realizing that value over 3 turns minimum (assuming two res's is the breaking point). I think the determining factors are going to be:
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I mean... yeah there are a lot of big question marks about the card's synergies. It's a completely synergy dependent card and this is the first set of the year.
I think there's more than enough healing to make this card work pretty well now, but what's the win condition of that sort of deck? The silence argument is just... I mean... yeah, a taunt gets countered by silence if you're up against aggro. That's true of every Taunt in the game.
Legendaries need to be one or more of these things to see play:
This has none of these qualities. I don't think it will see play.
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