The HS 2.0 thread got me thinking about this again. Just get rid of it in standard. Clearly T5 has been doing major backpedaling and not understanding their game well enough since they have no clue what they want with this set. Evergreen philosophy at first, then HoF, then putting in rng filler to fill in the gaps caused by HoF. Not to mention nerfing classic cards instead of rotating them just to discourage people from using them, and targetting classes much more than other classes. and then trying to discourage strong neutral cards from being played. Clearly T5 honestly has no idea what their consistent design philosophy is when it comes to this component of the game. Just move it all to wild (wild player btw so I don't care if it is wild only).
I'm just tired of all of the design and balance backpedaling and drama caused by this set. It's clear that cards are going to be continually rotated out of this set in the future years because [Insert random card here] is causing [Insert unforseen problem with terribly designed new card] so it is quite logical to rip the entire set off like a bandaid.
You realize that removing all cards from this set at once could end up in a real mess, don't you?
Yep, and then fixes would be implemented (possibly even by adding some of the classic cards to class basic sets for classes that have poor quality basic synergies).
Like I said, rip it off like a bandaid. It will hurt at first. Designers will have their joyous share of cognitive dissonance and then maybe they would get their sh*t together and be required to plan more intentionally about the future of the game's design. I'd much rather have that then this drawn out grueling annoyance of the moans of 'old cards causing problems for new broken crap' and then enduring the whole stuttering debate about what deserves to go and what doesn't.
The game survived being split into wild and standard. I'm confident that the game would survive losing the begrudged step-child of standard in one swoop.
The whole classic set is a tragic tale of Blizzard's broken promises. It was over the moment they realized deteriorating the set would lead to more profits
I don’t get peoples problem with the classic set. I love it. It’s SUPPOSED to stay the same and remain in the game. It annoys me how it’s getting all the flak for team 5’s incompetences. Especially reguarding expacs they didn’t balance correctly. That’s THEIR FAULT. They failed with the expansion. The classic set did not
I don’t get peoples problem with the classic set. I love it. It’s SUPPOSED to stay the same and remain in the game. It annoys me how it’s getting all the flak for team 5’s incompetences. Especially reguarding expacs they didn’t balance correctly. That’s THEIR FAULT. They failed with the expansion. The classic set did not
I agree, but the set just keeps getting picked apart and getting replaced with elegiggle random garbage coin flips. It's also overly optimistic to expect this to not continue over the years. They need to just admit they *$^#ed up and move on.
Standard is already too limited in cards, and you want to limit it even more: sorry, but that's BS. Think of Hearthstone with just 4 sets at the beginning of a season. There would be around 0 variance in decks; even worse than now.
For this to happen we would need a lot of reprints and even more sets. But if you want to spend more money, i think that then blizzard might find a way.
The classic set is in a weird place. Two things can happen with it:
Either some cards in classic (and basic) are too powerful and decks look the same all the time, througout the years (druid). This also limits design space heavily, like I am sure Preperation has a ton of impacton on which rogue spells can be printed and how they care costed.
Or, they eventually nerf all good classic card, solving the above problem but making it kinda pointless to collect the classic set. It also sort of ruins the history of the game. You can´t look back to iconic decks of old and compare them with today, since they contain the same cards but with different words on them. It might not sound like a huge problem, and it is not for a game that wants to survive just another year before probably discontinuing it. But if you want an iconic game that survives for decades, like Magic, you need the game to have a history, and nerfing cards basicly nerfs the game in that regard.
I´m thinking, why can´t you have a rotating classic set, so to speak? The classic set can be what it is, but for each season the devs can pick, say, 1/3rd that is active and the rest is not playable in standard. It could be a way to change up the meta more often. And the more broken classic cards don´t have to be nerfed.
I don't think a deck needs a lot of new cards to be interesting, it just needs a new way to play the game. The last innovative deck I can think of was espionage rogue. Every deck that has come since is just a variation of decks made in boomsday or earlier.
The classic set is not the real problem with the current meta; The real problem is that there are currently no new ways to play the game. Blizzard nerfed the druid cards in order to shift the meta and make it feel new because they failed to add anything actually new.
Nerfs to the classic set are, in my opinion, symptoms of staleness and not caused by an overarching problem that requires its retirement.
This seems to much of a hassle for team 5 to handle. Not only this will cause huge design problems as my brudah Shermy said, but this action will also require the complete rework of reward system and even prices. The entire economy structure is revolved around the evergreen set.
Now i do not say that this is a bad idea under the right circumstances but i am sure that they won't do it. You know there are so many things they should have done already but they chose not to just because it doesn't bring immediate profit. Their philosophy is: "If it doesn't lose or makes us money, don't fix it"
They should make a rotating base set, it's not shch a big deal .. MTG does that
Agreed. With the current classic set cards often are either too weak so they never see play or too strong so they end up in every deck. But if you have a rotating base set, then you can keep the game fresh while still providing a semi-consistent card pool for players to use. Plus it's fun to get to use old wild cards again after not having them for a few years.
When things get HoF we get the full dust amount without DE right? So if you had a full Classic Set and they HoF it, think of how much free shit that gives you too!
So really if they do this they'd have to switch it out for a new "Classic" set. I personally like the idea of just making Classic a Wild set and have a rotating "Core" set of cards instead. This would mean
1) Classic packs would only be available for purchase in the in game store. 2) The Core set would be a yearly rotating mix of Wild cards from various past sets that are available within the Standard meta because they mix well with the current new, Standard sets. A lot of this set may very well still be Classic cards, but it may depend on what works with the new cards coming out. 3) Core packs would replace Classic packs in rewards and the in-game store, making it possible for newer players to obtain some cards from old sets through the Core packs 4) HoF would be reserved for cards that they intend on never bringing back to a Standard meta through the Core cards. 5) If there is something in the Standard meta that is problematic, they could nerf it if it's a new card causing the issue. If it's a Core card, swap it out for now. If it's a Core card that is causing issues in Standard and Wild, maybe then nerf an old card. But only then!
It makes a lot of sense to me, because then if they ever have an issue where way too many OTK style decks pop up in Standard they could take a card in the Core set no one is using and just swap it out for a Dirty Rat or Deathlord to help counter them. Easy!
I agree. I mean, for a long time I was against the idea of removing Classic, and I was not too happy about HoF, but by now, I agree. I want them to unnerf the Classic set (about a dozen cards by now), and rotate it all to Wild. I am sick of them butchering the set more and more every year for the stupidest reasons and complain about "design space" every year, and destroy entire core mechanics and archetypes overnight, because "we want Standard to feel fresh". If they are so against the idea of old cards in Standard, then they should finally, once and for all get rid of them.
Old players can enjoy old cards, and the devs can make new cards any way they want. They won't have to complain about "design space" every year, they can change Standard in any direction they want, whenever they want, there is no HoF discussion, and whatever is "problematic" can just rotate out or be nerfed without collateral damage.
Just one thing I would recommend and request, aside from letting me buy old packs with gold: Make a new Basic set, take as long as you need, but when you are done, leave it in Standard and leave it the F alone.
The "basics" are supposed to be the starting point for every player. They are the fundamental, class defining tools, the first cards that explain the entire concept of having different classes, the cards that define the strengths and weaknesses of each class. They are the baseline for each new set: Whatever new card comes out, every player knows what Mages and Rogues and Warriors can and can't do, for there is a Basic set that defines these core mechanics. And even more importantly, they are the ONLY cards that new players have access to. Try to have at least that set be balanced, so that ALL classes are playable on that level. Regardless of how good or bad individual basic cards would be in the competitive scene, make sure that in a Basic-only environment, every class has some strong and weak matchups.
And then, whatever happens afterwards, you DO NOT touch the Basic set anymore. It's not Classic+. You should not tinker with it whenever you feel like "We don't like old cards in Standard". If you say something is "basic", make it basic! Like when you build a house, there is a base, a fundament, that everything else is build upon. Don't come out three years later and say "we don't like the house standing on the same fundament anymore".
With a solid Basic set, you don't need to reprint fundamental tools, and whenever you want to make a new archetype for a class, you can check if it's in line with the Basic set, if that is within the boundaries that should set a particular class apart from the others. Basic cards don't limit design space, but create it: They define the space within which each class should move to remain recognisable as that class. Whatever you design should happen within that space, to make sure you won't end up with a Rogue that heals better than a Priest.
The HS 2.0 thread got me thinking about this again. Just get rid of it in standard. Clearly T5 has been doing major backpedaling and not understanding their game well enough since they have no clue what they want with this set. Evergreen philosophy at first, then HoF, then putting in rng filler to fill in the gaps caused by HoF. Not to mention nerfing classic cards instead of rotating them just to discourage people from using them, and targetting classes much more than other classes. and then trying to discourage strong neutral cards from being played. Clearly T5 honestly has no idea what their consistent design philosophy is when it comes to this component of the game. Just move it all to wild (wild player btw so I don't care if it is wild only).
I'm just tired of all of the design and balance backpedaling and drama caused by this set. It's clear that cards are going to be continually rotated out of this set in the future years because [Insert random card here] is causing [Insert unforseen problem with terribly designed new card] so it is quite logical to rip the entire set off like a bandaid.
You realize that removing all cards from this set at once could end up in a real mess, don't you?
Yep, and then fixes would be implemented (possibly even by adding some of the classic cards to class basic sets for classes that have poor quality basic synergies).
Like I said, rip it off like a bandaid. It will hurt at first. Designers will have their joyous share of cognitive dissonance and then maybe they would get their sh*t together and be required to plan more intentionally about the future of the game's design. I'd much rather have that then this drawn out grueling annoyance of the moans of 'old cards causing problems for new broken crap' and then enduring the whole stuttering debate about what deserves to go and what doesn't.
The game survived being split into wild and standard. I'm confident that the game would survive losing the begrudged step-child of standard in one swoop.
The whole classic set is a tragic tale of Blizzard's broken promises. It was over the moment they realized deteriorating the set would lead to more profits
They should definitely quit nerfing classic cards and HOF them instead
I don’t get peoples problem with the classic set. I love it. It’s SUPPOSED to stay the same and remain in the game. It annoys me how it’s getting all the flak for team 5’s incompetences. Especially reguarding expacs they didn’t balance correctly. That’s THEIR FAULT. They failed with the expansion. The classic set did not
I agree, but the set just keeps getting picked apart and getting replaced with elegiggle random garbage coin flips. It's also overly optimistic to expect this to not continue over the years. They need to just admit they *$^#ed up and move on.
Imagine how much druids are gonna complain if Nourish was HOFed lol
Standard is already too limited in cards, and you want to limit it even more: sorry, but that's BS. Think of Hearthstone with just 4 sets at the beginning of a season. There would be around 0 variance in decks; even worse than now.
For this to happen we would need a lot of reprints and even more sets. But if you want to spend more money, i think that then blizzard might find a way.
The classic set is in a weird place. Two things can happen with it:
Either some cards in classic (and basic) are too powerful and decks look the same all the time, througout the years (druid). This also limits design space heavily, like I am sure Preperation has a ton of impacton on which rogue spells can be printed and how they care costed.
Or, they eventually nerf all good classic card, solving the above problem but making it kinda pointless to collect the classic set. It also sort of ruins the history of the game. You can´t look back to iconic decks of old and compare them with today, since they contain the same cards but with different words on them. It might not sound like a huge problem, and it is not for a game that wants to survive just another year before probably discontinuing it. But if you want an iconic game that survives for decades, like Magic, you need the game to have a history, and nerfing cards basicly nerfs the game in that regard.
I´m thinking, why can´t you have a rotating classic set, so to speak? The classic set can be what it is, but for each season the devs can pick, say, 1/3rd that is active and the rest is not playable in standard. It could be a way to change up the meta more often. And the more broken classic cards don´t have to be nerfed.
I don't think a deck needs a lot of new cards to be interesting, it just needs a new way to play the game. The last innovative deck I can think of was espionage rogue. Every deck that has come since is just a variation of decks made in boomsday or earlier.
The classic set is not the real problem with the current meta; The real problem is that there are currently no new ways to play the game. Blizzard nerfed the druid cards in order to shift the meta and make it feel new because they failed to add anything actually new.
Nerfs to the classic set are, in my opinion, symptoms of staleness and not caused by an overarching problem that requires its retirement.
This seems to much of a hassle for team 5 to handle. Not only this will cause huge design problems as my brudah Shermy said, but this action will also require the complete rework of reward system and even prices. The entire economy structure is revolved around the evergreen set.
Now i do not say that this is a bad idea under the right circumstances but i am sure that they won't do it. You know there are so many things they should have done already but they chose not to just because it doesn't bring immediate profit. Their philosophy is: "If it doesn't lose or makes us money, don't fix it"
They should make a rotating base set, it's not shch a big deal .. MTG does that
They would rejoice, right?
The card would stay at 5 mana.
It'd HOF the classic set aswell. This game needs something fresh
There are 100’s of cards in the Classic set. Very few of them see any play.
Over time, the most powerful Classic cards will be HOF’ed or nerfed. What is left will be mostly for new players.
What’s the problem?
Agreed. With the current classic set cards often are either too weak so they never see play or too strong so they end up in every deck. But if you have a rotating base set, then you can keep the game fresh while still providing a semi-consistent card pool for players to use. Plus it's fun to get to use old wild cards again after not having them for a few years.
When things get HoF we get the full dust amount without DE right? So if you had a full Classic Set and they HoF it, think of how much free shit that gives you too!
So really if they do this they'd have to switch it out for a new "Classic" set. I personally like the idea of just making Classic a Wild set and have a rotating "Core" set of cards instead. This would mean
1) Classic packs would only be available for purchase in the in game store.
2) The Core set would be a yearly rotating mix of Wild cards from various past sets that are available within the Standard meta because they mix well with the current new, Standard sets. A lot of this set may very well still be Classic cards, but it may depend on what works with the new cards coming out.
3) Core packs would replace Classic packs in rewards and the in-game store, making it possible for newer players to obtain some cards from old sets through the Core packs
4) HoF would be reserved for cards that they intend on never bringing back to a Standard meta through the Core cards.
5) If there is something in the Standard meta that is problematic, they could nerf it if it's a new card causing the issue. If it's a Core card, swap it out for now. If it's a Core card that is causing issues in Standard and Wild, maybe then nerf an old card. But only then!
It makes a lot of sense to me, because then if they ever have an issue where way too many OTK style decks pop up in Standard they could take a card in the Core set no one is using and just swap it out for a Dirty Rat or Deathlord to help counter them. Easy!
I agree. I mean, for a long time I was against the idea of removing Classic, and I was not too happy about HoF, but by now, I agree. I want them to unnerf the Classic set (about a dozen cards by now), and rotate it all to Wild. I am sick of them butchering the set more and more every year for the stupidest reasons and complain about "design space" every year, and destroy entire core mechanics and archetypes overnight, because "we want Standard to feel fresh". If they are so against the idea of old cards in Standard, then they should finally, once and for all get rid of them.
Old players can enjoy old cards, and the devs can make new cards any way they want. They won't have to complain about "design space" every year, they can change Standard in any direction they want, whenever they want, there is no HoF discussion, and whatever is "problematic" can just rotate out or be nerfed without collateral damage.
Just one thing I would recommend and request, aside from letting me buy old packs with gold: Make a new Basic set, take as long as you need, but when you are done, leave it in Standard and leave it the F alone.
The "basics" are supposed to be the starting point for every player. They are the fundamental, class defining tools, the first cards that explain the entire concept of having different classes, the cards that define the strengths and weaknesses of each class. They are the baseline for each new set: Whatever new card comes out, every player knows what Mages and Rogues and Warriors can and can't do, for there is a Basic set that defines these core mechanics. And even more importantly, they are the ONLY cards that new players have access to. Try to have at least that set be balanced, so that ALL classes are playable on that level. Regardless of how good or bad individual basic cards would be in the competitive scene, make sure that in a Basic-only environment, every class has some strong and weak matchups.
And then, whatever happens afterwards, you DO NOT touch the Basic set anymore. It's not Classic+. You should not tinker with it whenever you feel like "We don't like old cards in Standard". If you say something is "basic", make it basic! Like when you build a house, there is a base, a fundament, that everything else is build upon. Don't come out three years later and say "we don't like the house standing on the same fundament anymore".
With a solid Basic set, you don't need to reprint fundamental tools, and whenever you want to make a new archetype for a class, you can check if it's in line with the Basic set, if that is within the boundaries that should set a particular class apart from the others. Basic cards don't limit design space, but create it: They define the space within which each class should move to remain recognisable as that class. Whatever you design should happen within that space, to make sure you won't end up with a Rogue that heals better than a Priest.
What about new players? It must be tough to start from scratch without the classic set? :)