So, I have been looking at winrates to update the legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide and hunter currently has an unprecedented number of class legendaries among the top 10 performers. EVERY hunter legendary does well, and they fit in fairly different archetypes. For that reason, I don't think nerfing the legendaries is a great idea, especially since not even Deathstalker Rexxar was a strong performer while the class as a whole was struggeling. Now, Hunter is rising to become the no1 class.
The main reason for that is Lesser Emerald Spellstone imo. Unupgraded, it is already a good play, offering 6-6 stats for 5, something that can not be said about any of the other spellstones. Upgraded, however, the value reaches insane powerlevels. Hunter already has strong secrets like Wandering Monster, so it is not a sacrifice to play them on curve. Facing the full force of 4 wolves, aggro decks are usually forced to abandon fighting for the board, and will try to smorc for the win. Control decks have more responses to the wolves, but will struggle with the endless flood of beasts from Deathstalker Rexxar.
I think blizzard should nerf Lesser Emerald Spellstone to force hunter to have other ways to play the earlygame than secrets into the crazy statdump on turn 5 (or even turn 4 with The Coin. My first suggestion would be:
The standard blizzard way of nerfing. The card would still be very, very strong, and completely outclass most other spellstones, but it would not longer the zoo-stomper it currently is, and force you to make a choice for turn 6 between the spellstone and the DK. 7 mana could even be an option.
This will make the the unupgraded spellstone go more in line with the peers, and make it peek at 3 wolves rather than 4. I believe the card could still be playable with this change, but maybe only in spell-focussed decks.
EDIT:
Another reasonable way to nerf the card I came across in the forums The unupgraded card will still be strong, but 3 wolves is easier to deal with for tempo decks, and 4 will be seen very rarely, as it requires you to spend 8 mana on secrets (in standard) with the card in hand.
I don't think that 4 3/3s on turn 4 or 5 is that strong especially since most classes have good AOEs to kill them by turn 5 (priest - duskbreaker, warlock - hellfire, mage - dragon's breath, warrior - brawl/flurry, etc.)
So, I have been looking at winrates to update the legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide and hunter currently has an unprecedented number of class legendaries among the top 10 performers. EVERY hunter legendary does well, and they fit in fairly different archetypes. For that reason, I don't think nerfing the legendaries is a great idea, especially since not even Deathstalker Rexxar was a strong performer while the class as a whole was struggeling. Now, Hunter is rising to become the no1 class.
The main reason for that is Lesser Emerald Spellstone imo. Unupgraded, it is already a good play, offering 6-6 stats for 5, something that can not be said about any of the other spellstones. Upgraded, however, the value reaches insane powerlevels. Hunter already has strong secrets like Wandering Monster, so it is not a sacrifice to play them on curve. Facing the full force of 4 wolves, aggro decks are usually forced to abandon fighting for the board, and will try to smorc for the win. Control decks have more responses to the wolves, but will struggle with the endless flood of beasts from deahtstalker rexxar.
I think blizzard should nerf Lesser Emerald Spellstone to force hunter to have other ways to play the earlygame than secrets into the crazy statdump on turn 5 (or even turn 4 with The Coin. My first suggestion would be:
The standard blizzard way of nerfing. The card would still be very, very strong, and completely outclass most other spellstones, but it would not longer the zoo-stomper it currently is, and force you to make a choice for turn 6 between the spellstone and the DK. 7 mana could even be an option.
This will make the the unupgraded spellstone go more in line with the peers, and make it peek at 3 wolves rather than 4. I believe the card could still be playable with this change, but maybe only in spell-focussed decks.
Couldn't agree more. The suggested nerfs seem both fine to me as well, could this really be a "we nerd to nerf this"-thread that is based on stats, brings valuable arguements and is completely salt-free? Good job op!
See, I've never had issues with Hunter decks, because I play Control decks. I just wipe their board after they play their precious Spellstones. In terms of value however, you're making a lot of sense. Even more so, now that Zul'jin recasts them. I can see where Spellstone offers an unfair balance in board-centered mirrors, purely speaking in mana-value terms. A nerf to 6 mana is a valid nerf, I think, to make it more aligned with other spells, such as Rain of Frogs. That card essentially creates the same stats, for 9 mana, effectively.
That being said, I don't find a few 3/3's that impressive later on, and specifically in the new Spell Hunter decks, there are other spells you wanted casted more, I think. It's dangerous on curve, and the nerf would definitely slow that down.
I am not sure if it came through in the OP, but yes, my idea about nerfing the spellstone would be making it weaker in board-centric mirrors, and exposing the class' limited AOE.
Edit: So... whilst reading this I was making popcorns so... SlydE, I hold you responsible for my burnt popcorns! xD
it's just another offender in a long line of bad decisions made during K&C. Mana Cheat is bad for the game, but that was the theme during that expansion and we're seeing its effects now.
Just going to point out that you mentioned many different hunter archetypes that are strong. Before the expansion at least, I'm pretty sure deathrattle was either close to or at the top of the hunter rankings, and this card isn't played in it. The best nerf target could be deathstalker rexxar ( at least in my opinion).
With the countless druid decks that are op, and now couple new ones it's Hunter that's somehow a issue? Get a Gonk to the face nine times!
I actually like the hunter play styles that are viable now. It is just that the class was already strong and got even stronger. That an otherwise great minion like Savannah Highmane is cut from pretty much every deck says something!
Nah hunter Spellstone is fair I have to commit turn 1-5 waiting to play it then my late game is abysmal if I don’t draw correctly there are also alot of 3 health aoes right now so just tech some into your control lists most of them can be played turn 4-5-6-7
I am tired of this card. Mostly because games against hunter feels like: "Do I have an answer for 12/12 stats next turn? No? Well guess it's game then." or "Yes, I have an answer guess I have a good chance to win then".
Hunter and Druid's Spellstones are busted. And the Rogue's Spellstone hasn't seen any play anywhere. The Devs' decisions elude me.
rogue= strong base set, rogue doesn't need good cards each expansion to be good.hunter or warlock on the other hand have qiite meh base sets in comparison.. of course it also depends on meta, rogue's strong base set wasn't that good in gvg but once the meta shifted and it gof a bit of support it was more evident.
I don't think that 4 3/3s on turn 4 or 5 is that strong especially since most classes have good AOEs to kill them by turn 5 (priest - duskbreaker, warlock - hellfire, mage - dragon's breath, warrior - brawl/flurry, etc.)
It is strong if you don't have an answer, or you don't play control. Not that I'm asking for a nerf, but it can be a hell of a play followed up with to my side or kill command or DK Rexxar.
Hunter and Druid's Spellstones are busted. And the Rogue's Spellstone hasn't seen any play anywhere. The Devs' decisions elude me.
rogue= strong base set, rogue doesn't need good cards each expansion to be good.hunter or warlock on the other hand have qiite meh base sets in comparison.. of course it also depends on meta, rogue's strong base set wasn't that good in gvg but once the meta shifted and it gof a bit of support it was more evident.
druid makes no sense though
May i remember you of the 2 Mana Blade Flurry in the base set for Rogue in the GvG era of Oil ?
I agree the spellstone is easy to Upgrade but the problem in board-centric games is the fact that Hunter secrets are really good for controlling the board with a strong follow-up, if the secrets were terribly bad not even spellstone was worth using!
Whoever think spell stone is OK because it can be AOEed has never played or played against hunter spellstone for sure. You should never force a player to have a specific type of AOE on turn 5 or loses the game. You can say it is balanced on average because you draw it half of the time before turn 5 and those games you got 70% winrate and if you don't draw it your deck just do not do a whole lot maybe wins 45% of the time (this is not true in Rastakhan right now). So many results of the game purely come down to whether hunter plays a spellstone on turn 5.
You can still argue it is balanced but this is just not a fun play pattern. It is frustrating to play against, and as a hunter, it just feels so stupid to win again and again just because you got spellstone in your opening hand. Those games are even more straightforward than Druid having wild growth + nourish.
The hunter spellstone is a strong card alright, but I don't think it needs a nerf. In order to slam it down turn 4/5 you have to skip your first couple plays playing secrets that can be played around or outright ignored by control classes. Of the classes i'm facing odd mage couldn't care less because of dragon's breath and flamestrike, shudderwock shaman has 5 aoe's plus mind control tech, warlocks have hellfires, and taunt druids have taunts that just come back again...and again... and again.... As far as aggro goes spell hunter needs this card to keep up. Sure you can play it against aggro but by then they've already developed a board as well.
The bottom line is that yes, it's a very strong card. But it's far from an auto-win and there are plenty of answers. As to the argument "you have to have an answer to it or lose" I say that that applies to pretty much any card out there. Don't have an answer to lich king? Not good. Don't have an answer to turn three hench clan thug? That's definitely gonna snowball out of control. Also, "fair" cards don't make the cut in competitive decks, and the overall strategy of all the top decks is basically unfair bullshit all around. That's just how it is. And this isn't complaining, this is just reiterating that "fair" cards don't really make the cut. Sure there used to be the days long ago when a turn 4 yeti was a fair play considered halfway decent, but the state of the game isn't there anymore.
Anyway that's my two cents.
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So, I have been looking at winrates to update the legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide and hunter currently has an unprecedented number of class legendaries among the top 10 performers. EVERY hunter legendary does well, and they fit in fairly different archetypes. For that reason, I don't think nerfing the legendaries is a great idea, especially since not even Deathstalker Rexxar was a strong performer while the class as a whole was struggeling. Now, Hunter is rising to become the no1 class.
The main reason for that is Lesser Emerald Spellstone imo. Unupgraded, it is already a good play, offering 6-6 stats for 5, something that can not be said about any of the other spellstones. Upgraded, however, the value reaches insane powerlevels. Hunter already has strong secrets like Wandering Monster, so it is not a sacrifice to play them on curve. Facing the full force of 4 wolves, aggro decks are usually forced to abandon fighting for the board, and will try to smorc for the win. Control decks have more responses to the wolves, but will struggle with the endless flood of beasts from Deathstalker Rexxar.
I think blizzard should nerf Lesser Emerald Spellstone to force hunter to have other ways to play the earlygame than secrets into the crazy statdump on turn 5 (or even turn 4 with The Coin. My first suggestion would be:
The standard blizzard way of nerfing. The card would still be very, very strong, and completely outclass most other spellstones, but it would not longer the zoo-stomper it currently is, and force you to make a choice for turn 6 between the spellstone and the DK. 7 mana could even be an option.
This will make the the unupgraded spellstone go more in line with the peers, and make it peek at 3 wolves rather than 4. I believe the card could still be playable with this change, but maybe only in spell-focussed decks.
EDIT:
Another reasonable way to nerf the card I came across in the forums The unupgraded card will still be strong, but 3 wolves is easier to deal with for tempo decks, and 4 will be seen very rarely, as it requires you to spend 8 mana on secrets (in standard) with the card in hand.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
I don't think that 4 3/3s on turn 4 or 5 is that strong especially since most classes have good AOEs to kill them by turn 5 (priest - duskbreaker, warlock - hellfire, mage - dragon's breath, warrior - brawl/flurry, etc.)
Couldn't agree more. The suggested nerfs seem both fine to me as well, could this really be a "we nerd to nerf this"-thread that is based on stats, brings valuable arguements and is completely salt-free? Good job op!
I am not sure if it came through in the OP, but yes, my idea about nerfing the spellstone would be making it weaker in board-centric mirrors, and exposing the class' limited AOE.
lool
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
it's just another offender in a long line of bad decisions made during K&C. Mana Cheat is bad for the game, but that was the theme during that expansion and we're seeing its effects now.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
Zuljin really making waves huh? U guys need to accept hunter dominance until april. There with rexxar rotation the class sufffers a lot
It should be "play two secrets to upgrade".
I like the nerf to (6), as it would fit an Even setup with Secrets.
But in practice, i doubt they will nerf a card that is about to rotate into Wild, where Secret Hunter is strong, but is not a threat to the meta.
I mean, they let Big Priest slip into Wild untouched...
With the countless druid decks that are op, and now couple new ones it's Hunter that's somehow a issue? Get a Gonk to the face nine times!
Just going to point out that you mentioned many different hunter archetypes that are strong. Before the expansion at least, I'm pretty sure deathrattle was either close to or at the top of the hunter rankings, and this card isn't played in it. The best nerf target could be deathstalker rexxar ( at least in my opinion).
I actually like the hunter play styles that are viable now. It is just that the class was already strong and got even stronger. That an otherwise great minion like Savannah Highmane is cut from pretty much every deck says something!
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
Nah hunter Spellstone is fair I have to commit turn 1-5 waiting to play it then my late game is abysmal if I don’t draw correctly there are also alot of 3 health aoes right now so just tech some into your control lists most of them can be played turn 4-5-6-7
Control decks ignore the Secrets, kill the Wolves. Aggro decks deal with the Secrets, ignore the Wolves.
No changes needed.
I am tired of this card. Mostly because games against hunter feels like: "Do I have an answer for 12/12 stats next turn? No? Well guess it's game then." or "Yes, I have an answer guess I have a good chance to win then".
Good nerf and it should have cost 6 mana from the beginning. Everytime I face spell hunter I think "well this is a good matchup unless he..."
Turn 4 coin summon 4 3/3 beast.
Great
Me? Gongaga.
rogue= strong base set, rogue doesn't need good cards each expansion to be good.hunter or warlock on the other hand have qiite meh base sets in comparison.. of course it also depends on meta, rogue's strong base set wasn't that good in gvg but once the meta shifted and it gof a bit of support it was more evident.
druid makes no sense though
It is strong if you don't have an answer, or you don't play control. Not that I'm asking for a nerf, but it can be a hell of a play followed up with to my side or kill command or DK Rexxar.
May i remember you of the 2 Mana Blade Flurry in the base set for Rogue in the GvG era of Oil ?
I agree the spellstone is easy to Upgrade but the problem in board-centric games is the fact that Hunter secrets are really good for controlling the board with a strong follow-up, if the secrets were terribly bad not even spellstone was worth using!
Whoever think spell stone is OK because it can be AOEed has never played or played against hunter spellstone for sure. You should never force a player to have a specific type of AOE on turn 5 or loses the game. You can say it is balanced on average because you draw it half of the time before turn 5 and those games you got 70% winrate and if you don't draw it your deck just do not do a whole lot maybe wins 45% of the time (this is not true in Rastakhan right now). So many results of the game purely come down to whether hunter plays a spellstone on turn 5.
You can still argue it is balanced but this is just not a fun play pattern. It is frustrating to play against, and as a hunter, it just feels so stupid to win again and again just because you got spellstone in your opening hand. Those games are even more straightforward than Druid having wild growth + nourish.
The hunter spellstone is a strong card alright, but I don't think it needs a nerf. In order to slam it down turn 4/5 you have to skip your first couple plays playing secrets that can be played around or outright ignored by control classes. Of the classes i'm facing odd mage couldn't care less because of dragon's breath and flamestrike, shudderwock shaman has 5 aoe's plus mind control tech, warlocks have hellfires, and taunt druids have taunts that just come back again...and again... and again.... As far as aggro goes spell hunter needs this card to keep up. Sure you can play it against aggro but by then they've already developed a board as well.
The bottom line is that yes, it's a very strong card. But it's far from an auto-win and there are plenty of answers. As to the argument "you have to have an answer to it or lose" I say that that applies to pretty much any card out there. Don't have an answer to lich king? Not good. Don't have an answer to turn three hench clan thug? That's definitely gonna snowball out of control. Also, "fair" cards don't make the cut in competitive decks, and the overall strategy of all the top decks is basically unfair bullshit all around. That's just how it is. And this isn't complaining, this is just reiterating that "fair" cards don't really make the cut. Sure there used to be the days long ago when a turn 4 yeti was a fair play considered halfway decent, but the state of the game isn't there anymore.
Anyway that's my two cents.