Hearthpwn

Quote from Kovachut >>

Quote from Spritelight >>

Mate, I don't question your win-rate with this deck. However I am not really interested in those statistics, since the meta hasn't fully developed yet. We are still one week into the expansion, so many things can change by the end of the month.

I don't know what kind of control decks you have faced by now, however if you had a positive rating against them, then your opponents have most likely misplayed. This or maybe some decks aren't refined yet (since we are still in the experimental meta). I would like to state this, because I RARELY had any problems versus spell hunters in the past. Only two things wrecked me in those MUs - Deathstalker Rexxar and bad draw RNG sometimes. Because if I don't find my healing cards as control warlock on time, my opponent can just finish me off with a tiny bit of pressure. But odd warrior doesn't have this problem, does he?

Anyway back to Zul'jin - from the moment this archtype increased in popularity in WW, I learnt to play around their tricks. Secrets? - I don't attack the opponent's face, I just develop a board and I attack with the cheapest minion first. I aim for sudden big "punch" assaults. Removals? - against Crushing Walls I put the biggest minion(s) in the middle and against Deadly Shot I try to develop a wide board, in order to increase my chances of preserving my big threat(s).

Besides, control decks aren't like LoE control warrior - running mostly removals and not many minions. We also have big plays - we warlocks have Rin, the First Disciple and Bloodreaver Gul'dan. Mages have Frost Lich Jaina, which will summon a 3/6 elemental after they use a removal spell on your minions, they also have Dragoncaller Alanna as a finisher (+Sindragosa, Elise the Trailblazer if the game prolongs long enough). And warrior has Dr. Boom, Mad Genius, Omega Assembly and some other cards, which will generate value. So hunter's removal spells aren't scary at all and with this so isn't Zul'jin as well. Only Deathstalker Rexxar is your prime win-condition in those MUs.

Zul'jin can also be used as a win-condition, but the hunter player shouldn't cast any Lesser Emerald Spellstones before playing this hero card, but instead 2x Animal Companions and 2xTo My Side!s. This way they will have better chances of getting a charger and finishing off the opponent. I had a similar experience yesterday, where my opponent decided to go for this turn. I really questioned their decision, since they killed off their own DK this way and Zul'jin summoned only 2 Huffers, which sadly for my opponent weren't enough. I cleared their board and healed myself and with no threats left to summon, I won by default.

[edit] I forgot to say the obvious thing - yes, Zul'jin boosts secret/spell hunter and he offers a nice effect, but only when you draw him prior to the DK. The more you delay Rexxar, the bigger the chances of your opponent overwhelming you.

 And i´m saying it´s not the cards fault (Zul'jin) that everyone uses it the wrong way (imo), they play "kripps" version of spellhunter which i feel inferior to my way of utilizing Zul'jin http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1213525-zuljin

Usually i win by just slamming zuljin on turn 10 and if not i have rexxar as backup (my Zul'jin) doesnt only develop a board and kill off a few enemy minions but also replenishes my hand and deck. (sometimes it´s even favorable to just slam rexxar on 6 and build a few good targets for you to buff and put in your deck).

Zul'jin is a great card and what´s even better is that you can use it in addition to rexxar and with great synergy between them. 

Quote from Kovachut >>

Quote from Spritelight >>. 

I agree with you that people might be using Zul'jin in the wrong way and it's not his fault, if this is occurring atm. I will also add that I find your deck-list very intriguing and the inclusion of Master's Call and Dire Frenzy to be well thought. At the same time I also question other cards (like King Mukla; I would probably use Bearshark instead). I think that your deck shows the right strategy for this hero card, but it needs to be refined a bit.

Zul'jin is a great card and what´s even better is that you can use it in addition to rexxar and with great synergy between them.

For me they have anti-synergies with one another. They aren't as bad as playing Lord Jaraxxus, followed by Bloodreaver Gul'dan, but normally you wouldn't want to play Zul'jin after already being in your DK form. This is because Deathstalker Rexxar has a long-term effect, while Zul'jin's is a short-term one. The moment you replace the DK, your threats will become limited. This is why Dire Frenzy must land on something, that will end the game ASAP.

Because of what I said above, I don't see Zul'jin as the amazing card people were hyped about. If the spell order were chronological, then there would have been a combo potential with Flark's Boom-Zooka, Revenge of the Wild and Dire Frenzy. For me this hero is a mediocre card for now, until people figure out the right combo for him (of when hunter receives another strong spell to cast, preferebly a one that targets the enemy's face). Until then Deathstalker Rexxar stays as the real win-condition in those decks.

Imho except in recruit hunter, since it doesn't rely on the DK to win. It has a killer late-game and Oondasta offers great synergies with the DK.

 I tried Bearshark at rank 14, it has anti synergy with Dire Frenzy. Try my version our, you will be surprized how good King Mukla is in most matchups and it synergizes well with Rat Trap. Even just slamming him on an empty board turn three followed up by a Dire Frenzy is more or less gamewinning on its own. It wins me alot of the control matchups you wrote as counters. Shudderwock Shamans / Control/even Warlocks / Bigspell/odd Mages / Most Druids draw alot of cards, they dont two bananas on their hands (and it can burn essential combo cards).

I´m not talking about replace of rexxar, hell building zombeasts are among the best times i have in HS. But aslong as you can have both Zul'jin is bonkers imo...hes like a midrange shudderwock (the one without the combo) and you still have the benefits from the earlygame of secrethunter.

And as i pointed out before in my opinion they do synergize, build a 6 mana(or less) op zombeast buff it with +3+3 and shuffle 3 extra copies into your deck (and Zul'jin will repeat that for you) aslong as you can manage to have atleast one beast on the board when slamming him.

But it´s ok if you don´t agree with me, the less people utilizing Zul'jin the way i do the better (i havn´t seen or faced a single one yet on ladder or stream which i think might be a contributor to my winrate since people expect the imo worse "kripp" spellhunter version) 

Quote from raponZ6 >>

Quote from Darksun200 >>

Rofl I did and your points is mute because everything you pointed out is basically the same as what DK Guldann can do. 

"With Spell Hunter, Zul'jin can wipe several minions with things like Deadly Shot and Baited Arrow, and it can give quite a lot of burst damage thanks to rerolling Animal Companion and To My Side!. In one game I got hit in the face with 3 Huffers for a total of 12 face damage"

Doomguards can do that and you can control where they hit. But do the Doomguards have a chance to just die when they hit the board? of course not. Also do you not realize you can summon a couple or few doomguards that will be dealing more damage than Zul'jin will do on average? and it's not that hard to pull off all you need is 1 Cube. 

Also Cubelocks play Mountain Giant, an early giant that gets in face damage is just about as equivalent to how much damage Hunter will be doing before turn 10. 

 

 

 

 Lemme know when Gul Dan can draw you 1-2 cards, kill at least 2 enemy minions and keep your face safe with 5 secrets. 

 Bloodreaver Gul'dan does something much better, automatically win any fatigue match as fatigue will only really effect you on the fourth tick. And will generally summon at least one taunt, or more depending on the deck archetype.

Oh and that Bloodreaver Gul'dan has the highest played win-rate of all the deathknight cards, 4% higher played win-rate than Zul'jin. Keep in mind these stats were reset when the expansion dropped, so one card is clearly better than the rest.

Quote from Kovachut >>

Quote from Spritelight>>

I´m not talking about replace of rexxar, hell building zombeasts are among the best times i have in HS. But aslong as you can have both Zul'jin is bonkers imo...hes like a midrange shudderwock (the one without the combo) and you still have the benefits from the earlygame of secrethunter.

And what happens, when you find the DK before Zul'jin? I have read some of your previous posts, but don't you think that replacing Rexxar is a bad play in most cases? Don't you think, that Zul'jin becomes a dead card this way?

 And as i pointed out before in my opinion they do synergize, build a 6 mana(or less) op zombeast buff it with +3+3 and shuffle 3 extra copies into your deck (and Zul'jin will repeat that for you) aslong as you can manage to have atleast one beast on the board when slamming him.

But since Zul'jin's battlecry targets random minions (characters), since the spell cast isn't chronological, you can't possibly rely on him multiplying OP zombeasts. What if you shuffle a wolf (from the spellstone) or Leokk?

It wins me alot of the control matchups you wrote as counters. Shudderwock Shamans / Control/even Warlocks / Bigspell/odd Mages / Most Druids draw alot of cards, they dont two bananas on their hands (and it can burn essential combo cards).

Let's not include the decks, that aren't control (evenlock; odd mage), and such that lack good AoEs (standard shudderwock). For the druid part - it kinda depends on the RNG, whether they will discard somehting crucial or not. Imho BSM should do well against every minion deck - I have to see the clip (don't know if you have hstracker), in order to judge why the opponent(s) couldn't deal with your deI

I´ll start by admitting that it was actually hard to find any Control matchups among my games other then the ones you wanted to exclude ( i found a dragon warrior on rank 10 but that game i played Zu'jin just to get board and hand refill and finished him off by playing rexxar and building beasts. (There was alot of shudderwock games and evenlock though.) Most matchup has actually been aggro or midrange (hunter/Zoo and paladin mostly).

Over to your next about Zul'jin hitting a Dire Frenzy on "the right target", ofc you cant rely on that. Just make sure you have a beast on your board and he will atleast buff it and replenish your deck with another three overstatted beasts.

And to the first question sometimes he very well may be a dead card in your deck if you are already into building zombeast, but if your getting close to that fatigue counter and want to put another 6 cards in your deck he might also be that lifesaver that wins you the game. (so hes never a truly dead card imo).

I do like rexxar more but i certainly like Zul'jin too, having both of them makes me feel like i can win any control matchup.

Are people seriously complaining Guldan does not draw 1-2 cards? Guldan has freaking Warlock Hero Power from the start of the game this argument is really not that great considering Warlock can just Draw normally many cards then play DK. Who cares Guldan DK does not add 1 2 Secrets in Hand when he can just Draw for 1 Mana or 2 Every turn. And the Secrets that protect your face..... you play Zul Jin to Attack mainly not to defend cause you know ... Hunter s like SMOrc more.

If Yogg was nerfed because it could swing the game completely around, then I have to imagine that a card that will  swing the game around rather consistently will also be nerfed.  

To all you Twisting Nether fanboys who say Zul'jin isn't that bad....Twisting existed in the pre-nerf Yogg era too. 

Quote from Maximal18 >>

Quote from parishbishop >>

ITS THE WORST DESIGNED CARD EVER IMO. Super oppressive. Instant win most of the time. Not fun to play against. Almost forces people to play aggro to try and win before it comes down. 

I teched in Chief Inspector in a few decks, like Shudderwock. But what about all the other decks? FEELSBADMAN when all u do is put 1 card and it improves your winrate astronomically. 

Too many are already using this. Are we really gonna have another 2 years of this oppression? I hope not. 

Cap the spell or something, cuz its just a win more card and that hurts the creativity of the game/

Its not even been a full week, and already im seeing 40% Hunters and 90% of those Hunters are rockin him. 

Not sure if serious. The card has 58.7% Played winrate according to HSReplay.

If we compare it to late game DKs, it is lower than:

Gul'Dan 62.0%

Uther 61,4%

Valeera 59,8%

Jaina 59.3%

 those stats are low cuz of all the noobs who dont know how to play.

At rank 5 and on higher on ladder, most people know how to pilot the deck correctly. thats where its oppressive and seen alot of the time.

Like almost all Hunter decks now jam him in cuz of how good it is. also, comparing Zuljin to broken af DK isnt a very good comparison, cuz Guldan for example, just wins games by itself too.

Wait a few weeks/months and people will get better at it.  Hopefully they will print more interactive cards to counter these super strong winmore cards.

I enjoy trying to counter decks. Last night i build a Shudderwock with Chief Inspector just to counter all the Hunters at rank 5. It worked first game too. 

People before this card was released: This card si so boring. Not that good. Just another Yogg. Expected something better. Won't see much play.

People now: I lost to this card ten times in a row, please nerf.

Lol how many times do I have to drill it in people's heads..

Quote from raponZ6 >>

Quote from Darksun200 >>

Rofl I did and your points is mute because everything you pointed out is basically the same as what DK Guldann can do. 

"With Spell Hunter, Zul'jin can wipe several minions with things like Deadly Shot and Baited Arrow, and it can give quite a lot of burst damage thanks to rerolling Animal Companion and To My Side!. In one game I got hit in the face with 3 Huffers for a total of 12 face damage"

Doomguards can do that and you can control where they hit. But do the Doomguards have a chance to just die when they hit the board? of course not. Also do you not realize you can summon a couple or few doomguards that will be dealing more damage than Zul'jin will do on average? and it's not that hard to pull off all you need is 1 Cube. 

Also Cubelocks play Mountain Giant, an early giant that gets in face damage is just about as equivalent to how much damage Hunter will be doing before turn 10. 

 

 

 

 Lemme know when Gul Dan can draw you 1-2 cards, kill at least 2 enemy minions and keep your face safe with 5 secrets. 

 Jesus Christ..I just pointed out that Voidlord is the best defensive card in the game...no amount of secrets come even close to being as good as Voidlord. 

Doomguards can trade too and go face AND you have control over where they hit.

You and the other guy must have never been around for the Cubelock days... 

Guldan and Rexxar are stronger but Zul´jin is very good and currently look meta defining.  I think he´s on the top level near Jaina just a bit behind Guldan and Rexxar. Bad part: Hunter can play Rexxar and Zul´jin together which give them two incredible strong cards. Hunter looks like king of resurces now ...

Quote from Darksun200 >>

Quote from raponZ6 >>

Quote from Darksun200 >>

Rofl I did and your points is mute because everything you pointed out is basically the same as what DK Guldann can do. 

"With Spell Hunter, Zul'jin can wipe several minions with things like Deadly Shot and Baited Arrow, and it can give quite a lot of burst damage thanks to rerolling Animal Companion and To My Side!. In one game I got hit in the face with 3 Huffers for a total of 12 face damage"

Doomguards can do that and you can control where they hit. But do the Doomguards have a chance to just die when they hit the board? of course not. Also do you not realize you can summon a couple or few doomguards that will be dealing more damage than Zul'jin will do on average? and it's not that hard to pull off all you need is 1 Cube. 

Also Cubelocks play Mountain Giant, an early giant that gets in face damage is just about as equivalent to how much damage Hunter will be doing before turn 10. 

 

 

 

 Lemme know when Gul Dan can draw you 1-2 cards, kill at least 2 enemy minions and keep your face safe with 5 secrets. 

 Jesus Christ..I just pointed out that Voidlord is the best defensive card in the game...no amount of secrets come even close to being as good as Voidlord. 

Doomguards can trade too and go face AND you have control over where they hit.

You and the other guy must have never been around for the Cubelock days... 

 I agree with you, but Zul'jin is way less of a build around hero card.

I mean, sure, if we take both Spell Hunter and Cubelock, then Bloodreaver is way more powerful than Zuljin. But thing is: you can run Zul'jin into Secret/Midrange and it'll be way better in it than Guldan is to Even Lock, for example .

It may be interesting to note that Evenlock is way more popular (better?) than Cube nowadays. While Spell Hunter on its side is currently played just as much as Cube Hunter..

So, all in all, Bloodreaver can be abused the most in Cubelock lists, but within the metagame I believe Zul'jin is better.

Retarded card that got nerfed once (Yog) needs to be deleted as archetype from the entire game forever. this will see an indirect nerf that screws everyone who is crafting it with 1600 dust

Easily meta-defining. Yogg-Saron was already powerful. Here you pick which spells get cast. A+++.

I got lucky and got this out of a pack. I don't think it's that powerful actually (but I don't have Subject 9, so I could be wrong). Waiting on more spells next expansion. For now, it's powerful, but the random effects suck.