Hearthpwn

Running this guy in arena is probably the most retarded idea :D

It really shouldn't tell your opponent which card you lost though. That makes it terribly dangerous, even for constructed play. Imagine discarding anything in a midrange hunter dec (my 1st candidate), now your opponent know which card is unlikely to punish them. Else, they know you got a spell.

Soulfire discards a card as well, and your opponent knows which one. But the fact is, zoo doesn't care and handlock can replenish cards very fast that it matters less. Also you have more control over which card you discard, in this case you don't. It sells out a pretty big information for a card game. I know I defended this card, but giving away information was not something I had considered and known. No one would run this card in constructed. NO ONE! I'd rather add an angry chicken in my deck. At least it doesn't have any additional drawbacks (additional to wasting a card slot).

My bad. You are right to react to my post like that. I somehow sounded like my sentence was connected to the rest of my post.

I don't think this card is going to be bad in arena because it gives information. It's just bad because in arena you mostly have minions. And the chicken doesn't seem like a good card to get. It's just an undervalued card, that's why. Mostly a 3-2 for 3 mana and 1-1 for 1 mana. The additional discard probably won't hurt you badly, but some arena games can go to fatigue levels too.

This card was offered to me during the draft, and I choosed a below avarage card over this one. This is not the card you want when 25 cards out of your 30 are going to be minions (or weapons!)

Quote from totallyabiscuit »

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Quote from lynxbird »

Just imagine that card would be at a bottom of deck and would never be drawn. Tracking discard 2 cards, and it's still good, because those 2 cards would stay at a bottom of deck.

So this card is 3/2 draw a spell or free chicken card. That Giant would anyway stay at a bottom of deck and would never see play.

This card is very good in aggro decks.

Thank you so much! There is still hope! :)

(I would not just put it in the aggro category, but hey it's definitely not good for control decks that could win via fatigue.)

EDIT:  I tried to do some more math here, but the example I used requires the card draw not chicken an important minion.  If you take into account the possibility of chickening an important minion and then drawing another anyway, the probabilities of getting the card the very next turn are actually the same, but the probabilities of getting another one in the following turns then drops drastically if you chickened one of your cards, which is why I didn't initially use that example. 

The math here is hard to use to depict the full picture.  Let me see if I can come up with a better "real game" situation.

Ok, so even if you take the example of freeze mage with Alex as 1/15 card left in your deck, and you understand that the probabilities of drawing Alex with GE and without are the same for the next turn, don't look at just the probabilities for the next turn, but for the game overall.  You have 100/% chance of drawing Alex if you don't use GE throughout the game, that is not true if you do use GE.  In that case, you have a 14/15 chance of drawing Alex throughout the remainder of the game.  This means 1/15 times you lose.  Even though the probabilities of drawing Alex on any given turn with GE or without GE are equal, because you have less opportunities overall, you have a lower chance throughout the whole game.  

You play GE.  You do not increase or decrease your chances of drawing Alex next turn (although you do decrease the chance overall), you do however add a 1/15 chance of losing the game.  Is that worth the 14/15 chance of an additional spell ?

Apply the same logic to auctioneers/Rag/whatever and decide if it's worth it with key minions in the deck.

This is a very good point.  I hadn't even considered this.  Something else i didn't cover:

What kinda of deck WOULD you run this in.  It would not fit in any of the existing deck types.  It is not good in non-spell decks for obvious reasons.  It is not good in the heavy spell decks that we see on ladder (miracle, freezemage etc.) because all of these decks have very important cards.  The one deck i could see this find play in is druid.  There are a lot of spells, and it isnt the end of the world if you discard a legendary.  Unfortunatly, the druid deck doesnt have enough space as it is, so i dont think this will see play in it.  Some people might say that it could fit into new decks created by the expansion.  However i dont think this will be the case, as the expansion was largely minions.

I don't need to check the math already done because I understand how probabilities work.  Just because the chance to draw a card on a given turn does not increase or decrease at any time, does not mean the chance to draw the card stays the same overall.  This is because you give yourself 1 less chance to draw the card every time you play GE, and this means you have a lower chance overall, assuming you draw your whole deck.  For decks worried about key minions (ie Miracle/freeze) this is a very real possibility.

And the incredibly simplistic math done where people are using one card out of your remaining deck as the "desired card" or what have you doesn't even close to depict what kind of decision making you should be using to play this card.  That's what I meant by "math doesn't depict the whole picture here."

 EDIT:  Quoted the wrong person.  Meh
EDIT2:  In very simple terms, this card cannot fit into any decks I can think of now.  You would think a spell heavy low minion deck would be ideal, but if you think about the specific decks like that now, they really aren't.  Decks like miracle and freeze run heavy card draw with few minions, but the minions they have are key.  Yes, this card does not increase or decrease your chance of drawing those key minions on any given turn, but, assuming you draw your entire deck, you have 1 fewer turn to draw the card, and therefore a lower chance overall.  These decks revolve around key minions, and so they are in some ways designed for drawing as much as possible. Games where you exhaust your entire card supply are perhaps not frequent, but not so uncommon you can ignore them.  

So no, the negative side effect of this card is not simply that you go to fatigue faster, but that if you do go to fatigue, you decrease your chance of getting those key minions from 100% to something below that.  It also does nothing to increase your chances of getting them in the short term, so its fairly hard to make an argument to include the card.  Its that simple.

Kids srsly dont pick this crap in arena :D

To pic below: he didnt have any spells to clear my hyena or he would have used them earlier so his only move after this was to attack it with hero power :D

Haha - seriously I made the same mistake of picking him just for lulz - he managed to turn my only legendary (TROGGZOR!) into a chicken not once - not twice - but yes three times.  But the 2/3 stats are SO MUCH BALUE!

Oh, so Blizz made it bad on purpose. Well, it's good to know that it's safe to completely ignore this card now.

Guys...it saved my ass..seriously, card draw is not bad when you are on the line..

the hunter had a commanding lead and the GE drew my out, won me that game.

Quote from Beonitas »

Quote from Three4gg »

Quote from totallyabiscuit »

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Quote from Beonitas »

Quote from lynxbird »

Just imagine that card would be at a bottom of deck and would never be drawn. Tracking discard 2 cards, and it's still good, because those 2 cards would stay at a bottom of deck.

So this card is 3/2 draw a spell or free chicken card. That Giant would anyway stay at a bottom of deck and would never see play.

This card is very good in aggro decks.

Thank you so much! There is still hope! :)

(I would not just put it in the aggro category, but hey it's definitely not good for control decks that could win via fatigue.)

EDIT:  I tried to do some more math here, but the example I used requires the card draw not chicken an important minion.  If you take into account the possibility of chickening an important minion and then drawing another anyway, the probabilities of getting the card the very next turn are actually the same, but the probabilities of getting another one in the following turns then drops drastically if you chickened one of your cards, which is why I didn't initially use that example. 

The math here is hard to use to depict the full picture.  Let me see if I can come up with a better "real game" situation.

Ok, so even if you take the example of freeze mage with Alex as 1/15 card left in your deck, and you understand that the probabilities of drawing Alex with GE and without are the same for the next turn, don't look at just the probabilities for the next turn, but for the game overall.  You have 100/% chance of drawing Alex if you don't use GE throughout the game, that is not true if you do use GE.  In that case, you have a 14/15 chance of drawing Alex throughout the remainder of the game.  This means 1/15 times you lose.  Even though the probabilities of drawing Alex on any given turn with GE or without GE are equal, because you have less opportunities overall, you have a lower chance throughout the whole game.  

You play GE.  You do not increase or decrease your chances of drawing Alex next turn (although you do decrease the chance overall), you do however add a 1/15 chance of losing the game.  Is that worth the 14/15 chance of an additional spell ?

Apply the same logic to auctioneers/Rag/whatever and decide if it's worth it with key minions in the deck.

This is a very good point.  I hadn't even considered this.  Something else i didn't cover:

What kinda of deck WOULD you run this in.  It would not fit in any of the existing deck types.  It is not good in non-spell decks for obvious reasons.  It is not good in the heavy spell decks that we see on ladder (miracle, freezemage etc.) because all of these decks have very important cards.  The one deck i could see this find play in is druid.  There are a lot of spells, and it isnt the end of the world if you discard a legendary.  Unfortunatly, the druid deck doesnt have enough space as it is, so i dont think this will see play in it.  Some people might say that it could fit into new decks created by the expansion.  However i dont think this will be the case, as the expansion was largely minions.

I don't need to check the math already done because I understand how probabilities work.  Just because the chance to draw a card on a given turn does not increase or decrease at any time, does not mean the chance to draw the card stays the same overall.  This is because you give yourself 1 less chance to draw the card every time you play GE, and this means you have a lower chance overall, assuming you draw your whole deck.  For decks worried about key minions (ie Miracle/freeze) this is a very real possibility.

And the incredibly simplistic math done where people are using one card out of your remaining deck as the "desired card" or what have you doesn't even close to depict what kind of decision making you should be using to play this card.  That's what I meant by "math doesn't depict the whole picture here."

 EDIT:  Quoted the wrong person.  Meh
EDIT2:  In very simple terms, this card cannot fit into any decks I can think of now.  You would think a spell heavy low minion deck would be ideal, but if you think about the specific decks like that now, they really aren't.  Decks like miracle and freeze run heavy card draw with few minions, but the minions they have are key.  Yes, this card does not increase or decrease your chance of drawing those key minions on any given turn, but, assuming you draw your entire deck, you have 1 fewer turn to draw the card, and therefore a lower chance overall.  These decks revolve around key minions, and so they are in some ways designed for drawing as much as possible. Games where you exhaust your entire card supply are perhaps not frequent, but not so uncommon you can ignore them.  

So no, the negative side effect of this card is not simply that you go to fatigue faster, but that if you do go to fatigue, you decrease your chance of getting those key minions from 100% to something below that.  It also does nothing to increase your chances of getting them in the short term, so its fairly hard to make an argument to include the card.  Its that simple.

First of all: I'm happy you understand probability. Most people apparently don't. Yet you misjudged us. Everybody who argued about this card always assumed that drawing the entire deck and going to fatigue is not a win condition. I couldn't agree more with you that in a deck, such as Control Warrior, this card has no place, as winning with Fatigue is a viable win condition. Yet if Freeze Mage had a free slot for this card, it would be viable in that deck, because winning with Fatigue is not an option in that deck (Iceblock at 1 health and Fatigue draw is game over), although it does have the win condition of drawing a specfic card, Alexstrasza, for which a lot of card draw is used.

I am convinced that maths is the only way to show people how this card works. I know it's simple maths, but 80% of the people didn't get it. Such a shame ...

Anyway this card just got worse after the preliminary discussion took place, where it was still worth a consideration. It got worse, because first of all it is a chicken that costs 1 mana, while it also reveals if you chickened a card (if not that means it's a spell) and also what you chickened.

In Arena this card was never meant to be very useful, because of the overall lack of spells/weapons. Also it's a Rare and most Rares are really good cards. But this being Arena, there will always be some crappier ones, still.

 

I think people can agree with at least 80% of the following cards being worse than Gnomish Experimenter in the rare slot, (some just mostly so). Those comparisions show how low this card is valued. So it will see limited play in Arena, while in Constructed it will be limited to very niche decks, as well.

Call Pet, Flare

Cobalt Guardian, Blessed Champion, Divine Favor

Vitality Totem, Ancestral Spirit, 

Mistress of Pain, Felguard (mostly)

Upgrade!, Screwjank Clunker (mostly), Armorsmith (mostly), Commanding Shout (mostly),

Ethereal Arcanist (mostly),

Headcrack, One-eyed Cheat,

Lightwell, Mass Dispel,

Jeeves (mostly), Coldlight Oracle (mostly), Master Swordsmith (mostly), Nerubian Egg (mostly), Ancient Mage (mostly)

Target Dummy, Alarm-o-Bot, Angry Chicken, Ancient Watcher, Bloodsail Corsair, Coldlight Seer, Demolisher, Gadgetzan Auctioneer, Lightwarden, Mana Addict, Murloc Tidecaller, Secretkeeper, Savagery;

In the case of freeze mage, it is possible you still remain above 1 hp when you begin to fatigue, in which case you still have a (small) chance of winning should Alex be your last card.  Although the point of certain key minions being less useful at the bottom of your deck is valid.  Obviously auctioneer at the bottom is pointless.  Even so, some win condition minions such as Malygos or deckhand are still useful at the bottom.  I suppose my point is that there will always be the possibility of some useful minions at the bottom in most decks. 

If the consensus is that the card isn't good in any deck that could draw itself entirely, then I certainly agree.  

And yes, the now public information about the process of transforming the card and the mana cost of the chicken makes the card even worse.

Quote from Three4gg »

Quote from Beonitas »

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Quote from totallyabiscuit »

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Quote from lynxbird »

Just imagine that card would be at a bottom of deck and would never be drawn. Tracking discard 2 cards, and it's still good, because those 2 cards would stay at a bottom of deck.

So this card is 3/2 draw a spell or free chicken card. That Giant would anyway stay at a bottom of deck and would never see play.

This card is very good in aggro decks.

Thank you so much! There is still hope! :)

(I would not just put it in the aggro category, but hey it's definitely not good for control decks that could win via fatigue.)

EDIT:  I tried to do some more math here, but the example I used requires the card draw not chicken an important minion.  If you take into account the possibility of chickening an important minion and then drawing another anyway, the probabilities of getting the card the very next turn are actually the same, but the probabilities of getting another one in the following turns then drops drastically if you chickened one of your cards, which is why I didn't initially use that example. 

The math here is hard to use to depict the full picture.  Let me see if I can come up with a better "real game" situation.

Ok, so even if you take the example of freeze mage with Alex as 1/15 card left in your deck, and you understand that the probabilities of drawing Alex with GE and without are the same for the next turn, don't look at just the probabilities for the next turn, but for the game overall.  You have 100/% chance of drawing Alex if you don't use GE throughout the game, that is not true if you do use GE.  In that case, you have a 14/15 chance of drawing Alex throughout the remainder of the game.  This means 1/15 times you lose.  Even though the probabilities of drawing Alex on any given turn with GE or without GE are equal, because you have less opportunities overall, you have a lower chance throughout the whole game.  

You play GE.  You do not increase or decrease your chances of drawing Alex next turn (although you do decrease the chance overall), you do however add a 1/15 chance of losing the game.  Is that worth the 14/15 chance of an additional spell ?

Apply the same logic to auctioneers/Rag/whatever and decide if it's worth it with key minions in the deck.

This is a very good point.  I hadn't even considered this.  Something else i didn't cover:

What kinda of deck WOULD you run this in.  It would not fit in any of the existing deck types.  It is not good in non-spell decks for obvious reasons.  It is not good in the heavy spell decks that we see on ladder (miracle, freezemage etc.) because all of these decks have very important cards.  The one deck i could see this find play in is druid.  There are a lot of spells, and it isnt the end of the world if you discard a legendary.  Unfortunatly, the druid deck doesnt have enough space as it is, so i dont think this will see play in it.  Some people might say that it could fit into new decks created by the expansion.  However i dont think this will be the case, as the expansion was largely minions.

I don't need to check the math already done because I understand how probabilities work.  Just because the chance to draw a card on a given turn does not increase or decrease at any time, does not mean the chance to draw the card stays the same overall.  This is because you give yourself 1 less chance to draw the card every time you play GE, and this means you have a lower chance overall, assuming you draw your whole deck.  For decks worried about key minions (ie Miracle/freeze) this is a very real possibility.

And the incredibly simplistic math done where people are using one card out of your remaining deck as the "desired card" or what have you doesn't even close to depict what kind of decision making you should be using to play this card.  That's what I meant by "math doesn't depict the whole picture here."

 EDIT:  Quoted the wrong person.  Meh
EDIT2:  In very simple terms, this card cannot fit into any decks I can think of now.  You would think a spell heavy low minion deck would be ideal, but if you think about the specific decks like that now, they really aren't.  Decks like miracle and freeze run heavy card draw with few minions, but the minions they have are key.  Yes, this card does not increase or decrease your chance of drawing those key minions on any given turn, but, assuming you draw your entire deck, you have 1 fewer turn to draw the card, and therefore a lower chance overall.  These decks revolve around key minions, and so they are in some ways designed for drawing as much as possible. Games where you exhaust your entire card supply are perhaps not frequent, but not so uncommon you can ignore them.  

So no, the negative side effect of this card is not simply that you go to fatigue faster, but that if you do go to fatigue, you decrease your chance of getting those key minions from 100% to something below that.  It also does nothing to increase your chances of getting them in the short term, so its fairly hard to make an argument to include the card.  Its that simple.

First of all: I'm happy you understand probability. Most people apparently don't. Yet you misjudged us. Everybody who argued about this card always assumed that drawing the entire deck and going to fatigue is not a win condition. I couldn't agree more with you that in a deck, such as Control Warrior, this card has no place, as winning with Fatigue is a viable win condition. Yet if Freeze Mage had a free slot for this card, it would be viable in that deck, because winning with Fatigue is not an option in that deck (Iceblock at 1 health and Fatigue draw is game over), although it does have the win condition of drawing a specfic card, Alexstrasza, for which a lot of card draw is used.

I am convinced that maths is the only way to show people how this card works. I know it's simple maths, but 80% of the people didn't get it. Such a shame ...

Anyway this card just got worse after the preliminary discussion took place, where it was still worth a consideration. It got worse, because first of all it is a chicken that costs 1 mana, while it also reveals if you chickened a card (if not that means it's a spell) and also what you chickened.

In Arena this card was never meant to be very useful, because of the overall lack of spells/weapons. Also it's a Rare and most Rares are really good cards. But this being Arena, there will always be some crappier ones, still.

 

I think people can agree with at least 80% of the following cards being worse than Gnomish Experimenter in the rare slot, (some just mostly so). Those comparisions show how low this card is valued. So it will see limited play in Arena, while in Constructed it will be limited to very niche decks, as well.

Call Pet, Flare

Cobalt Guardian, Blessed Champion, Divine Favor

Vitality Totem, Ancestral Spirit, 

Mistress of Pain, Felguard (mostly)

Upgrade!, Screwjank Clunker (mostly), Armorsmith (mostly), Commanding Shout (mostly),

Ethereal Arcanist (mostly),

Headcrack, One-eyed Cheat,

Lightwell, Mass Dispel,

Jeeves (mostly), Coldlight Oracle (mostly), Master Swordsmith (mostly), Nerubian Egg (mostly), Ancient Mage (mostly)

Target Dummy, Alarm-o-Bot, Angry Chicken, Ancient Watcher, Bloodsail Corsair, Coldlight Seer, Demolisher, Gadgetzan Auctioneer, Lightwarden, Mana Addict, Murloc Tidecaller, Secretkeeper, Savagery;

In the case of freeze mage, it is possible you still remain above 1 hp when you begin to fatigue, in which case you still have a (small) chance of winning should Alex be your last card.  Although the point of certain key minions being less useful at the bottom of your deck is valid.  Obviously auctioneer at the bottom is pointless.  Even so, some win condition minions such as Malygos or deckhand are still useful at the bottom.  I suppose my point is that there will always be the possibility of some useful minions at the bottom in most decks. 

If the consensus is that the card isn't good in any deck that could draw itself entirely, then I certainly agree.  

And yes, the now public information about the process of transforming the card and the mana cost of the chicken makes the card even worse.

I feel like you are wrong on this one.  If alex is on the bottom of your deck against control, (warrior or priest) they will be able to heal out your burn.  If you burn alex vs aggro, you will never get to the bottom of your deck, so alex will not be able to heal you back up to 15 which can be game-winning vs aggro.  In other words if alex is on the bottom vs control, they will outheal, and vs aggro they will kill u b4 u get to it, and you will have played a 3 mana 3/2, as the chicken is irrelevant.

I honestly dont see the point in this card whatsoever. The only deck to put it in that makes a little bit of sense is freeze mage, but even then theres the chance or burning alex, plus theres nothing worth replacing for it. IMO one of the most useless cards ever.

OH and not to mention it being a 3 MANA 3/2

To be completely honest, I still don't know why Trump, after experimenting with the card (hah experimenting) still defends the value of the card when it clearly is subpar in arena in 99% of the cases. If you use this card in Constructed.......

Moving on, in Arena of all places, when you have so many minions, why would you give the chance of burning a card that you need???? Sure, at it's most basic form, it's kindof value but you are burning a potentially valuable topdeck and that is ridiculously bad. i'm sure others have commented their rage on this card but I just felt the need to ask why a pro player (I don't doubt Trump's skills at all) would value this card over some others.

Might be good in Lock and Load hunter ,since you have a lot of spells and you might want to have the Chicken for random beast synergy cards from Lock and Loadwhen you don't have enough beasts to make use of it.

Well that is 3/2 + draw a card for 3 mana in best case, which is not that great.

And if you want chicken for 1 mana, than better play angry chicken.

Quote from lynxbird >>

Well that is 3/2 + draw a card for 3 mana in best case, which is not that great.

And if you want chicken for 1 mana, than better play angry chicken.

One of my version runs King's Elekk and another one Gnomish Experimenter.