Hearthpwn

Is it just me or is this 10 cost, "summon all demons that died this game" too powerful? I know it is. Especially when Warlock already has the cards to wait it out to late game, heal, taunt, destroy...then get everything back for 10, plus a 3 cost lifesteal.

Too powerful imo.

I have played so many games that I would have won if is wasn't for them getting every minion back for 10 mana crystals.

I doubt it will be nerfed, but it is too OP regardless for what it does, compared to other deathknight hero cards.

I can live with the battlecry effect; it is a ten cost card, after all. But the hero power should absolutely deal two damage instead of three. That's the kind of change you could make and not a single Warlock player would drop it from their deck.

It's all together just too much.  Voidcaller / Lackey in to Voidlord, which standalone is OP and I don't care if you think it's not, is just stupid.  Four bodies and 18 hit points is way overtuned for a 9-mana single card.  Silence it it you say?  Well like that friggin' matters with Cubes.  Trade into it and you get hit with Defile.

Cheating the mana for Voidlord just needs to stop.  Tweak how the demons are recruited.  Fix cube.  Fix Voidlord.  Do something.  All of it together makes any sane person sick.  The power of cubelock closes the door on every mid-range deck in existence, except Even Paladin (if you can even call that midrange).

The 6 health swing the Hero Power provides is ludicrous and it wins you attrition battle between two control decks every time. It also swings back any control vs. aggro games extremely easy.

Warlock atm is the worst class for me to play against. Cheating out Void Lords and healing for buttload with spellstone and dark pact is OK, but cheating out 5/7 charge, then doubling it and then summoning two more with the DK is such a bullshit.  

If only Doomguard had rush instead of charge, then it would be a bit more balanced.

TL;DR: Bloodreaver Gul'dan would have been fine, had certain Kobolds & Catacombs cards not undermined the Warlock's balancing-weakness and perverted the DK's strengths to an unseemly level:

1. Dark Pact and Lesser Amethyst Spellstone gave the Warlock too much life restoration all at once. The Warlock's main weakness has always been his fragility - "the cost of power" - and that weakness was significantly lessened. As such, the Warlock can survive until turn-10 far more reliably, allowing the DK to come in and seal the game away. In addition to that, with these additional tools to ward off death, Warlocks are not playing the DK when they have single-digit Health left, clawing their way out of a hole; their Health thresholds are much more safe, changing the Hero Power's position as a life-saving play toward being a drain-tank, "I'm never going to die" attrition-winner.

2. (Insert Tired-But-True Remarks Regarding The Perils of Summoning-Cheats Here). If cards like Possessed Lackey and the Skull of the Man'ari were not available, the Warlock would have to play his Voidlord on curve like a normal 9-mana play, taking up basically their entire turn. This would be later followed by the second one at some point - taking up yet-another turn - and then the DK if they wanted to maximize value. That would be three turns at the 9+ mana stage of the game where the Warlock only plays a single card; a totally reasonable set of actions, and yet far less formidable versus what we're seeing. Being able to cheat out high-cost Demons early - and/or playing Demons such-that you circumvent their major drawbacks - balloons DK Gul'dan's potential beyond what it arguably should have been (and beyond the level it was originally). With these means to cheat minions out, you can play Bloodreaver Gul'dan on turn-10 itself and respawn 2 or more Voidlords; that would have been impossible if you had to play them normally. Speaking of having more than the allotted number of copies...

3. Carnivorous Cube. Being able to replicate these costly, high-value minions once-again exacerbates DK Gul'dan potential beyond its original KFT-era value. If you could only revive two Doomguards total, or just two Voidlords - after playing them normally and suffering the cost to do so - that would have been acceptable as a full 10-mana turn down the line. Being able to revive 3 or 4 (or God-forbid even more) of these minions is obviously ridiculous, and beyond what the DK was presumably meant to do.

To reiterate, the Deathknight is arguably fine...or rather it was. Kobolds & Catacombs was just way too much coming from various directions, shining a blinding spotlight on how great Bloodreaver Gul'dan could become if you provide the Warlock all of these absurd methods to exploit the card further.

It's too late to pull back on all of these cards, and a nerf to DK Gul'dan might be necessary "collateral damage" to salvage the situation. However, my ultimate point here is that this wasn't the Deathknight's fault.

DK Gul'dan barely saw any play in KoFT, Control Warlock was a low Tier 3 and Cubelock obviously didn't exist.

It was KaC which put Warlock in the headlight.

I maintain that Carnivorous Cube is the issue, it's neutral and has the potential to cause so many messed up things in future expansions, as can be seen with Taunt Druid in WW, which Isn't quite as strong but is just as polarizing in certain games.

i agree dk on its own is duable, but the hero power with 3 dmg is way to much. it should be 2 dmg ,so you can outheal/armor them in someway.

I think all of this has been discussed many times before. 

I don't think the battlecry is OP by itself, it's cheating out high-cost demons FAR BEFORE round 10. So pulling Bloodreaver feels definitely unfair after that. Tune down the cheating tools and the battlecry would be fair for its 10 Mana.

The Heropower though has been too strong from the start in my opinion. 

Targetable 2-Lifesteal would still be quite strong (it would mean a netto 4-Health-gap when played on the enemy hero).

But I don't think, they'll nerf that.

So: fix lackey and cube, and the Warlock DK will feel fair again. 

The 3 lifesteal is too much.  Should be 2 instead

Quote from craigrs84 >>

The 3 lifesteal is too much.  Should be 2 instead

Quote from Tykaine >>

DK Gul'dan barely saw any play in KoFT, Control Warlock was a low Tier 3 and Cubelock obviously didn't exist.

It was KaC which put Warlock in the headlight.

I maintain that Carnivorous Cube is the issue, it's neutral and has the potential to cause so many messed up things in future expansions, as can be seen with Taunt Druid in WW, which Isn't quite as strong but is just as polarizing in certain games.

DK Guldan is a 10 mana class legendary that will rotate eventually. It's okay for cards to be good. Spending 10 mana on a single card should win you a lot of games or least give you massive advantage.

Quote from Tykaine >>

DK Gul'dan barely saw any play in KoFT, Control Warlock was a low Tier 3 and Cubelock obviously didn't exist.

Many people in this thread are claiming that the battlecry effect from Bloodreaver Gul'dan is not that bad. I disagree because it allows warlocks to send their own demons and throw them away to trade for board control only to get them all back in the end. It's very careless way of playing. Same thing with Carnivorous Cube. It allows you to constantly focus on destroying your own minions in order to get value and the tools are all too good for warlock in order to get these combos off. Nerfing cards by just one mana cost is not going to magically solve the situation. Some other strategy will appear and they will learn to adapt to these new costs. Definitely seeing less lackey and dark pact in games but playing against Warlock where I am finding myself having to board clear more often. Seems they are just running more demons that don't require possesed lackey or Skull of Man'ari. And it seems to be working out just fine for them.

Plus, Bloodreaver Guldan remains a problem card. The swing is too good for endgame situation. It's such a kick in the face to see a Warlock lifetap endlessly all game and then just heal it all up with their spellstones and Dk guldan's hero power. There doesn't seem to be a real sacrifice to playing Warlock which it used to have prior to these expansions pull towards the endless synergies of putting minions on the board for free again and again and healing up any self damage.

The battlecry is very strong, maybe a little bit too strong, i mean yes it’s a 10 mana card but if we look at the other Death Knights we can see that both Uther and Jaina that are 9 mana card don’t have an amazing battlecry, we go from 9 mana summon a 3/6 with lifesteal or equip a 5/3 weapon with lifesteal to 10 mana summon every friendly demon that died this game. But since it’s similar to N’zoth i don’t have a huge problem with it, it’s the Hero Power! I guess that the card is very powerful because at that time Warlock wasn’t in a good position, but it’s bltantly obvious that compared to the other Death Kinights Hero Powers this is over powered. Almost every other Hero Power ( of the Death Knights ) requires another thing, Jaina’s HP it’s amazing value, but you have to kill with 1 damage and requires thinking, Rexxar’s HP has amazing value too but it’s very RNG dependend and it requires to play a card after using it, Valeera’s/Agatha’s require you to play a card ( and to be specific for Agatha, a minion ) Thrall’s/Garrosh’s work only if you have minions in play, Uther’s needs a huge set up or just 4 turns, Anduin’s has a good combo potential but needs other cards to refresh. So we’re left with Gul’Dan and Malfurion Death Knight Hero Powers that work alone without the use of another card, but Malfurion’s can give you or 3 damage or 3 armor ( yes with the legendary from WotOG you can choose both, but it”s too situational ) Gul’Dan’s instead it’s 3 damage AND 3 life alltogheter, which is a little bit overpowered, and a little bit out of context for the card. I mean, a decent nerf could be either lower the damage to 2, so it’s like you can now regain the life you spent with your original HP, or have the damage at 3 but make it have lifesteal only if you have a demon on the board, so it requires a card and it’s also demon thematic.

@shotglassanhero
Yes Gul'dan battlecry is powerful, but it is to be expected for a 10-mana card. Look at Nzoth for example : the battlecry is pretty similar, the difference is that Nzoth gives you deathrattles which is arguably better than demons (since you diluted your pool with voidwalkders by playing voidlords), but also gives you a 5/7 which can be a disadvantage or an advantage depending on your resurrection pool.
Nzoth is a powerful but fair card. Sure, it's a huge swing, but at 10 mana it better be either a huge swing or a kill (pyroblast, UI, ...).

The problem is not the battlecry on its own, neither is it the new hero power, but rather the combination of both. 
Without the new hero power, Gul'dan would be rather weak, probably playable but barely (unless the cost is reduced obviously). Without the battlecry this would be sh*t, 10 mana for this hero power is too much. 
But the combination of both make it far too powerful. You get an instant swing turn, but that's kinda expected for 10 mana, AND a really powerful fatigue win-condition (6 life swing with hero power ! Arguably better than the DIE INSECT from Quest Warrior... which is a quest reward !)

The problem of nerfing the battlecry is that it's difficult to do without destroying the card. On the other hand, nerfing the hero power to 2 damage+lifesteal is extremely easy, and the card would remain extremely powerful, just not "broken" anymore. 

I think it is fine, honestly.  It's only kind of broken when you're bringing out like 30-40 mana worth of voidlords and doomgaurds you didn't even pay for in the first place.  

If you play it in an even lock or zoo deck, it's a strong card but costs your entire turn and requires you to actually play all the demons (costing hp and discards often).  It's not anywhere as broken as cubelock where you bring out three charge doomgaurds and still control the trades on the turn you play it.

The power dropping to two damage instead of three I would maybe understand, but after lock hero power changes they lose their draw and the tempo can really go down.  You could argue that 3 lifesteal is fine.  

The battlecry is not too powerful. N'Zoth's battlecry is much more powerful and it was never nerfed. Plus, there are reasons we we have Brawl, Equality combos, Dragon's Fury, Twisting Nether, and Dragonfire Potion. It is to clear boards like this.

Gul'Dan's hero power is what should have been nerfed, from 3 damage to 2. The hero power spits in the face of any control class that isn't mage or priest that tries to go control simply due to the fact that the hero power represents one free removal each turn, on top of healing. That is removal that doesn't need to be included in your deck. 

Gul'Dan's hero power is completely a superior version of Malfurion's with the one exception that it cannot stockpile health (armor) that protects against burst/otk that does 30+ health. In all other ways the warlock hero power completely trumps the druid one. In addition, so long as the Gul'Dan hero power deals 3 damage I see no way that warlock will be dethroned from being one of the best attrition control classes in wild, regardless of what new cards come out.

Personally the only issue I see with Bloodreaver Gul'dan is the multiple ways to cheat out large demons before playing this bringing them all back. Now the hero power is also very powerful and could be a possible way to nerf Gul'dan if he is eventually nerfed but I don't think it's the main issue. If you look at other expensive DKs like Uther of the Ebon Blade and Frost Lich Jaina which both only cost 1 less mana but do way less than Gul'dan(summon a 3/6 or get a powerful lifesteal weapon compared to a N'zoth like affect is ridiculous when Gul'dan only costs 1 more). Instead I think changing the requirement to resummon demons is the best way to bring Gul'dan more in line with the others.

 I think this feels alot better and more in line with the other DKs. First off it cuts off the main issue Gul'dan has in that warlocks cheat out powerful demons then resummons them to create an unbeatable wall (Voidlord) or massive burst (Doomguard) both of which are very powerful and can be difficult to stop. Instead they need to play those demons in order to get them back which opens up warlocks to actually run different demons that still aren't seeing play even though they are really good like Despicable Dreadlord. The other thing is that you have 100% control over what you summon which can remove the rng the current Gul'dan can bring with summoning Voidwalker over the actual demons you want to summon but this control is balanced out in that you have to build up the battlecry over the game  meaning its a slower grindy card that you might not want to play on turn 10 so you can play more demons meaning you can force a weaker Gul'dan by applying pressure.

Now in the end this still is a very powerful card (which 10 mana cards should be) but it's much slower than the current version is and hopefully much more fair of a card.