Agreed about Lackey but not about Cube. As we've seen, things that cheat out minions can be okay, if the random element is large enough that it can't reasonably be controlled. Cards like Piloted Shredder and Sneed's Old Shredder were strong but okay because you sometimes got really bad pulls. Cards like N'Zoth, the Corruptor because they take up your entire turn, cost 10-mana, and don't let you go face for 15 to 30 damage (ahem...Bloodreaver Gul'dan).
Lackey would be fine if it summed a random minion from your deck and not specifically demons.
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The problem is healing because it puts you out of reach from burn while simultaneously putting up a taunt. You can't judge the card in a vacuum, but the combo it creates is particularly annoying because of the health. Put up a big taunt? Sure, put up a big taunt and half heal your hero not really
Again, "putting up a big taunt" IS NOT PART OF Dark Pact, but Lackey, which - again - is the key (problem) card here.
You don't seem to grasp the conversation because of your willful ignorance.
We are talking about DARK PACT being essential to an early combo that gives FREE minions that would otherwise have a huge drawback, for no drawback at all + gaining 8 life.
You keep crying that Dark Pact isn't the problem on its own. No sh#t. Either was Conceal or Ice Lance, look what happened to them because THEY CREATED A COMBO THAT WAS TOO MUCH FOR THE OPPONENT.
Stop posting in threads when you cant grasp the conversation. Go play cubelock and fall asleep.
Another thought is that warlocks would be just dying if there was no dark pact. Think about it: amethyst, siphon, gul'dan. Only Amethyst is cheap enough for you to survive against aggro. Yeah, you have defile and hellfire to clear, but how often do you draw them when they are so needed? Well, if dark pact was to be removed and there is no dark possession which could be its substitute then warlock cannot effectively draw out strong demons from the deck which is a big cut on the warlock's ability to be a control deck. I mean people can obviously try different versions and such but still. Pact gives this ability to survive. Lackey and skull are reasonably costed in my opinion. I understand it is frustrating to see doomguards and voidlords that early in the game sometimes, but it is perfect for warlocks to survive against aggro. In Control people have more tools to deal with demons. Aggro uses silence to get through and they do it perfectly most of the time.
How many deckslots do you think an Aggro deck should sacrifice for silences in the Cube matchup? There's 2x Voidlords and 2x Cubes minimum- and Pact happens on your opponent's turn so you only get to silence 1x of the 2x spawned Voidlords.
Balancing your taps/life total is a small price to pay in a deck that out everythings everything in everything besides early turn aggression.
I don't know how many heals you need in your deck but please realise that losing Pact would not kill the deck. There's Rogue players theorycrafting Rotten Applebaum for Miracle simply because the health total is that threatened for God's sake (only board clear is fan of knives) , the fact you wouldn't even consider slightly sub-optimal cards to smoothe out your class weaknesses shows just how spoiled Warlock has been.
Again, look at the number of heals you got in a typical cubelock. Amethyst, dark pact and gul'dan. That is IT. You can run Siphon Soul which is too slow or sacrificial pact but that is not a good option in Standard. Drain soul is not good enough against swarms in Pally or other decks. I am not defending walrlock as a class but rather point out that it is hard to survive as warlock if not for dark pact. Un'Goro was terrible for Warlock as it had not heal and weak cards after the rotation. Gul'dan and drain soul came to mitigate that, but this meta is more of a swarm than before so I understand why they printed dark pact.
Likewise, I don't understand why people do not call for nerfing sacrificial pact. In wild you have voidcaller which you can easily kill on turn 4 and get a free Mal'Ganis. Turn 5 or 6 you can cube it and get two of those. This even more terrible than doomguards in Standard. Two Mal'ganis with stats 9-7 + (2+2) and immune is more powerful. Yet, no one calls for nerfing sacrificial pact. Destroy a voidcaller and gain 5 life. No one sees that problem? Maybe you don't play wild? Try everybody, especially against Giants lock.
Dark pact should be changed to "Silence a friendly minion, then destroy it. Restore 8 health to your hero"
Still good health gain, but no more lackey/cube tricks.
So basically just take the deck out of the meta? I remember when this card was first revealed, people said it wasn't good or wasn't worth it and now you guys want to nerf the shit out of it? Please stop this is just ridiculous.
Another thought is that warlocks would be just dying if there was no dark pact. Think about it: amethyst, siphon, gul'dan. Only Amethyst is cheap enough for you to survive against aggro. Yeah, you have defile and hellfire to clear, but how often do you draw them when they are so needed? Well, if dark pact was to be removed and there is no dark possession which could be its substitute then warlock cannot effectively draw out strong demons from the deck which is a big cut on the warlock's ability to be a control deck. I mean people can obviously try different versions and such but still. Pact gives this ability to survive. Lackey and skull are reasonably costed in my opinion. I understand it is frustrating to see doomguards and voidlords that early in the game sometimes, but it is perfect for warlocks to survive against aggro. In Control people have more tools to deal with demons. Aggro uses silence to get through and they do it perfectly most of the time.
How many deckslots do you think an Aggro deck should sacrifice for silences in the Cube matchup? There's 2x Voidlords and 2x Cubes minimum- and Pact happens on your opponent's turn so you only get to silence 1x of the 2x spawned Voidlords.
Balancing your taps/life total is a small price to pay in a deck that out everythings everything in everything besides early turn aggression.
I don't know how many heals you need in your deck but please realise that losing Pact would not kill the deck. There's Rogue players theorycrafting Rotten Applebaum for Miracle simply because the health total is that threatened for God's sake (only board clear is fan of knives) , the fact you wouldn't even consider slightly sub-optimal cards to smoothe out your class weaknesses shows just how spoiled Warlock has been.
Except Cubelock has absolutely no great tempo cards like Rogue does and really doesn't have the ability to fend off early damage like Rogue does.
I do think that Dark Pact would be more fairly costs @ 2 mana. At the very least, it means Dark Pact + 1 mana minion = 8 healing, which is the cost (Healing Touch).
I don't think this really impacts Cubelock all that much - but it's a start.
The problem with Cubelock is all the mana cheating. Recruit is bad for the game.
Since the silence idea denies the recruiting, I think it's a good start, but recruit in general needs to be nerfed.
Health gain in Warlock is already strong. Eight points of it is OP. Eight points for 1 mana AND a free deathrattle activation is nuts. When that deathrattle summons a Voidlord, the game is broken.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
The problem with Cubelock is all the mana cheating. Recruit is bad for the game.
Since the silence idea denies the recruiting, I think it's a good start, but recruit in general needs to be nerfed.
Health gain in Warlock is already strong. Eight points of it is OP. Eight points for 1 mana AND a free deathrattle activation is nuts. When that deathrattle summons a Voidlord, the game is broken.
Some recruit is fine though - No one complains about the "fair" recruit cards - Kathrena, Silver Vangaurd, even Oaken Summons. Just because some recruit cards are unbalanced, doesn't mean that the mechanic in its entirety needs to be nerfed.
The problem with Cubelock is all the mana cheating. Recruit is bad for the game.
Since the silence idea denies the recruiting, I think it's a good start, but recruit in general needs to be nerfed.
Health gain in Warlock is already strong. Eight points of it is OP. Eight points for 1 mana AND a free deathrattle activation is nuts. When that deathrattle summons a Voidlord, the game is broken.
Some recruit is fine though - No one complains about the "fair" recruit cards - Kathrena, Silver Vangaurd, even Oaken Summons. Just because some recruit cards are unbalanced, doesn't mean that the mechanic in its entirety needs to be nerfed.
Yes, fine my language was a little strong. When I say "nerf" here, I mainly mean that the implementation of it should follow strict guidelines such that it doesn't summon more mana's worth of stuff than you spent on the card.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
You don't seem to grasp the conversation because of your willful ignorance.
We are talking about DARK PACT being essential to an early combo that gives FREE minions that would otherwise have a huge drawback, for no drawback at all + gaining 8 life.
You keep crying that Dark Pact isn't the problem on its own. No sh#t. Either was Conceal or Ice Lance, look what happened to them because THEY CREATED A COMBO THAT WAS TOO MUCH FOR THE OPPONENT.
Stop posting in threads when you cant grasp the conversation. Go play cubelock and fall asleep.
Why are you so hostile? It's not me being dense here. You can literally replace Dark Pact with any other 1-mana card that destroys/damages your Lackey for the same benefit of "putting up a big taunt". The combo DOES NOT REQUIRE dark pact. It's lackey and lackey alone that does that. Dark Pact might work better than the other, but that doesn't change the fact that it plays no role in enabling the combo to begin with. Hell even if you just kill Lackey by trading you get the same benefit.
Also, Ice Lance itself was very much an issue and you bringing that up shows your lack of understanding of what makes a combo a combo.
Problem with Dark Pact it works with Possessed Lackey [/card] and [card]Carnivorous Cube There is two good way to prevent it.
1. Destroy a friendly minion with 4 or less mana, Restore 8 health to your hero.
2. Destroy a friendly minion with tribe, Restore 8 health to your hero.
So setting condition to the card will not hurt real purpose of the card which is restoring 8 health by sacrificing a small minion
Doom guard is not that much problem but there is a good way to nerf it.
Battlecry: Gain charge, Discard two random cards.
This way it will only have charge if you play it from your hand and it will not hurt too much archetype.
I think the 1st nerf for Dark Pact is more realistic mainly because it ends the Cube and Lackey more entirely (might be wrong, I don't play Cube) .
As for Doomguard, this seems like a decent nerf because it changes him, but it still is useful
Now for Lackey, I guess changing it to "Recruit a Demon from your deck" would be justifiable as the chances of getting Doomguard or Voidlord are way too high imo
I was thinking about what others said above and here is what I think. Lackey is a fine card on its own. It was partially underestimated during the initial reviews and so was the skull. Both do similar things. One pulls out demons out of hand, another out of your deck. And a player can easily interact with the cards: you can destroy the weapon and silence the lackey. This is pretty clear. I do not think lackey needs to be nerfed (bump up his cost - if that solves the cubelock/control warlock problem than I am in but I highly doubt that is the nerf we need.
There are a few other pieces. So, pact, cube, and doomguard/voidlord. All of these are gross when players encounter them. No one wants to be left behind in just a turn of a few magical tricks. And obviously it is a huge tempo swing as a player invests little to obtain a great benefit of overtaking the course of events. Pact - the combo will not be gone at all if we bump up the cost to 2 or change the wording to "Silence and destroy a friendly minion. Restore 8 health". People will just run sanguine revelers to kill cubes or dark possessions to kill lackeys. And pact provides the healing warlock needs in order to survive against aggro which never fades away. Cube - some pointed out and I agree - this card is really strong. It can be nerfed. Should it be? The card can lose its essence if we change the text and become another Warsong Commander (exxageration). Maybe bumping up its cost could see benefits to it. 7 Mana could be alright. Or some text change like deathrattle give 2 of the destroyed minions to your hand or whatever (I guess you can give better ideas for now). Does this make a cut into a deck then? Allegedly and this eradicates the meaning of Cube Warlock deck. Voidlord cheat-out is a biggie as well, but that is what blizzard intended and did balancing around. The problem here then is Cube... Or doomguard? So some of the ways I thought we could get rid of the nasty 5 doomguards you can potentially cheat out with umbra is 1) to change charge to rush which obviously is super bad for the class identity which loses its core card (mainly zoolock). But hey, let's not forget about warrior nerfs. Or, 2, we could remove the tag "Demon" from him. Is it good? That will definitely prevent the Cube Warlock idea. But, that will make it awkward as Doomguard can't not be a demon.
P.S. Wild has voidcaller (your old lackey) and people run sacrificial pacts to get demons out as early as turn 4. Mal'ganis and cubes are gross there and combine this all makes up for some pretty bad experience. So, overall - cube and doomguard are the offenders in my opinion provided that cube is safer to nerf as it does not destroy warlock class.
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We are talking about DARK PACT being essential to an early combo that gives FREE minions that would otherwise have a huge drawback, for no drawback at all + gaining 8 life.
You keep crying that Dark Pact isn't the problem on its own. No sh#t. Either was Conceal or Ice Lance, look what happened to them because THEY CREATED A COMBO THAT WAS TOO MUCH FOR THE OPPONENT.
Stop posting in threads when you cant grasp the conversation. Go play cubelock and fall asleep.
"Do you smell something...burning?
I do think that Dark Pact would be more fairly costs @ 2 mana. At the very least, it means Dark Pact + 1 mana minion = 8 healing, which is the cost (Healing Touch).
I don't think this really impacts Cubelock all that much - but it's a start.
Dark pact is fine it's Doomguard or Carnivorous Cube that should be adressed.
There's no reason to nerf cards that are not the core issue. nerfing such a card will only make other archetypes that are less powerful to be damaged.
Why u hav to be mad? is only card gaem.
Come on people - Dark pact is fine - the problem with cubelock is the Doomguards.
The problem with Cubelock is all the mana cheating. Recruit is bad for the game.
Since the silence idea denies the recruiting, I think it's a good start, but recruit in general needs to be nerfed.
Health gain in Warlock is already strong. Eight points of it is OP. Eight points for 1 mana AND a free deathrattle activation is nuts. When that deathrattle summons a Voidlord, the game is broken.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I was thinking about what others said above and here is what I think. Lackey is a fine card on its own. It was partially underestimated during the initial reviews and so was the skull. Both do similar things. One pulls out demons out of hand, another out of your deck. And a player can easily interact with the cards: you can destroy the weapon and silence the lackey. This is pretty clear. I do not think lackey needs to be nerfed (bump up his cost - if that solves the cubelock/control warlock problem than I am in but I highly doubt that is the nerf we need.
There are a few other pieces. So, pact, cube, and doomguard/voidlord. All of these are gross when players encounter them. No one wants to be left behind in just a turn of a few magical tricks. And obviously it is a huge tempo swing as a player invests little to obtain a great benefit of overtaking the course of events. Pact - the combo will not be gone at all if we bump up the cost to 2 or change the wording to "Silence and destroy a friendly minion. Restore 8 health". People will just run sanguine revelers to kill cubes or dark possessions to kill lackeys. And pact provides the healing warlock needs in order to survive against aggro which never fades away. Cube - some pointed out and I agree - this card is really strong. It can be nerfed. Should it be? The card can lose its essence if we change the text and become another Warsong Commander (exxageration). Maybe bumping up its cost could see benefits to it. 7 Mana could be alright. Or some text change like deathrattle give 2 of the destroyed minions to your hand or whatever (I guess you can give better ideas for now). Does this make a cut into a deck then? Allegedly and this eradicates the meaning of Cube Warlock deck. Voidlord cheat-out is a biggie as well, but that is what blizzard intended and did balancing around. The problem here then is Cube... Or doomguard? So some of the ways I thought we could get rid of the nasty 5 doomguards you can potentially cheat out with umbra is 1) to change charge to rush which obviously is super bad for the class identity which loses its core card (mainly zoolock). But hey, let's not forget about warrior nerfs. Or, 2, we could remove the tag "Demon" from him. Is it good? That will definitely prevent the Cube Warlock idea. But, that will make it awkward as Doomguard can't not be a demon.
P.S. Wild has voidcaller (your old lackey) and people run sacrificial pacts to get demons out as early as turn 4. Mal'ganis and cubes are gross there and combine this all makes up for some pretty bad experience. So, overall - cube and doomguard are the offenders in my opinion provided that cube is safer to nerf as it does not destroy warlock class.
What do you think?
If Dark Pact gets nerfed then Sanguine Reveler will take its place.
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It should only work on demons.
Changing Doomgaurd's "charge" to "rush" would ruin its viability in other warlock decks. It should be a battlecry instead. "Battlecry: Gain Charge"
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