The deck isn't very strong right now, just fix the insane animation time
Right now a lot of people are playing aggro hunter and aggro paladin on lower ranks. The combo deck will be better on higher ranks and once some of the control decks become meta.
i don't think the shudderwok is the problem here, but lifedrinker, since that's what makes you loose life; an easy nerf to that card would be to only trigger if your hero is damaged;
i don't think the shudderwok is the problem here, but lifedrinker, since that's what makes you loose life; an easy nerf to that card would be to only trigger if your hero is damaged;
As said before, Shudderwock isn't the issue, its the fact that you sit there for 10 minutes waiting for the animation to finish showing you lost the game. It's not a powerful deck in the first place so a nerf would just be stupid. If a shaman can pull off the combo I say it's akin to quest mage, they played in a way that allows them to get a OTK win and I commend them for it because they have to play in a certain way which makes it harder AND shaman doesn't have the card draw engine to make it consistent so its even more skilled to do so.
All in all, nerf the animation time, not the card.
Well hold on, the victim NEVER has to sit through the 10 minute animation time where 10 shudderwocks are being played for 1 mana, he is guaranteed dead and can surrender. Only the Shudderwock player has to sit through the entire turns if his opponent does not surrender. That leaves me to think you are a Shudderwock player who pretends his deck is not strong and complains about his own combo.
I do not have Shudderwock because I didn't pack it and i'm semi free to play. I am semi-f2p and I make decks with what i think is fun/interesting/will win me games. Shudderwock is none of these 3. It has a very low win rate even though people tout it as a tier 1 deck; but even with this it's still an issue with the animation time. 9/10 when facing a Shudderwock player they have to play it twice a turn before to guarantee their combo for next turn with multiple 1 cost cards, so there is that you have to sit through (both players). Also i'm fairly sure that once the animation cues up you have to sit through it and the concede will only go through once they're between shudderwocks, meaning you have to sit through at least the first 1 or 2 before it concedes so theres that.
Also your comment about control being the meta is already there though. Cube/Control lock still dominates the meta with Aggro Paladin being up there too with a 60% win rate; yet Shudderwock is still getting only a 40% win rate throughout all ranks. It loses to refined control decks and doesn't stand a chance against the faster decks, so there is NO reason to change the card.
Just change the card text ofSaronite Chain Gang so it summons a copy of it (Like "Battlecry: Summon a copy of Saronite Chain Gang. Set its' attack to be the same as the copy you played" except make it easier on the wording, english isn't my first language so I'm not a 100% sure how to make the text less clunky but there must be a way). Shudderwock itself is a fine, fun card that could boost Elemental and Jade shamans, there's no need to slaughter it over some dumb combo which can be easily fixed.
Shudderwock is fine imo (card stand alone), its Grumble that needs to be changed. I would love to see Grumble changed to an end of turn effect rather then a battlecry. I think that would make Grumble much more interesting without shudderwock in the pitcher.
How about making his battlecry not interact with battlecry interactions like murmuring elemental's battlecry or his own battlecry? That way the combo with saronite chaingang and grumble becomes a lot less consistent because you're not guaranteed to get a copy of shudderwock and shudderwock won't trigger earlier shudderwock battlecries.
Your description of what the new card text is supposed to be is confusing.|
1. Shudderwock already doesn't count its own battlecry in its effect if it is played again. 2. Murmering Elemental only doubles the next battlecry played, it does not double the current Shudderwock's battlecry that is already happening. I've seen this mistake already three times in ladder. You HAVE to play murmering elemental on the same turn for the combo to work reliably.
1. Sorry I wasn't sure if it did or didn't count its own battlecry, but I believe Kripp said so in a video and that's why I thought it worked like that.
2. I know that, but since you can easily get 1/1 copies of shudderwock those 1/1 copies do trigger their battlecry twice (after having played murmuring elemental or a shudderwock with murmuring elemental's battlecry).
I didn't say anything about a new card text though so I don't know which description you're referring to.
i don't think the shudderwok is the problem here, but lifedrinker, since that's what makes you loose life; an easy nerf to that card would be to only trigger if your hero is damaged;
Leave the card as it is and instead learn how to play vs that deck.
What exactly can I do differently other than pray that I get lethal before they draw all their combo pieces? There is literally nothing that can be done to stop a battlecry from being executed, and every piece of the combo is a battlecry.
What needs fixing is the perception of the HS community. The OTK is frustrating to play against when it works, but it’s a bad deck that works infrequently. (Sure, Toast did well with it, but he’s a pro - especially with memes.) While it’s early to read a lot into the data, OTK Shaman has seen some of the most play, and the HSReplay statistics have it at a ~45% win rate. It spends the whole game playing weak draw cards and low tempo battlecry minions, leaving it vulnerable to all but the slowest control decks.
You might compare this to the Quest Rogue nerf, which also had a poor win rate but was super polarizing. The major difference is that Quest Rogue had some OP matchups. Shudderwock OTK only has positive win rates against 3 classes, one of which is Shaman, and another - Warrior - which has seen tons of experimentation with objectively slow control play in the form of Odd Quest Warrior.
Shudderwock is a powerful card which has not seen nearly enough deck experimentation outside of the OTK. A nerf this early will ruin the card to satisfy mob mentality.
What needs fixing is the perception of the HS community. The OTK is frustrating to play against when it works, but it’s a bad deck that works infrequently. (Sure, Toast did well with it, but he’s a pro - especially with memes.) While it’s early to read a lot into the data, OTK Shaman has seen some of the most play, and the HSReplay statistics have it at a ~45% win rate. It spends the whole game playing weak draw cards and low tempo battlecry minions, leaving it vulnerable to all but the slowest control decks.
You might compare this to the Quest Rogue nerf, which also had a poor win rate but was super polarizing. The major difference is that Quest Rogue had some OP matchups. Shudderwock OTK only has positive win rates against 3 classes, one of which is Shaman, and another - Warrior - which has seen tons of experimentation with objectively slow control play in the form of Odd Quest Warrior.
Shudderwock is a powerful card which has not seen nearly enough deck experimentation outside of the OTK. A nerf this early will ruin the card to satisfy mob mentality.
There wouldn't be a problem if Cancerwock didn't share another characteristic with Quest Rogue: the complete and total lack of a tech card that can counter it. You have no way at all to interact with the Shaman's win condition, just as you had no way to interact with a Quest Rogue's ability to complete the quest, so the entire game is decided by draw and nothing else.
I think they should bring back dirty rat. What an awesome card it was. The deck is so reliant on so many cards that pulling a 1-1 by dirty rat would destroy the deck, or at least slow down the opponent so much they can't wiin.
What needs fixing is the perception of the HS community. The OTK is frustrating to play against when it works, but it’s a bad deck that works infrequently. (Sure, Toast did well with it, but he’s a pro - especially with memes.) While it’s early to read a lot into the data, OTK Shaman has seen some of the most play, and the HSReplay statistics have it at a ~45% win rate. It spends the whole game playing weak draw cards and low tempo battlecry minions, leaving it vulnerable to all but the slowest control decks.
You might compare this to the Quest Rogue nerf, which also had a poor win rate but was super polarizing. The major difference is that Quest Rogue had some OP matchups. Shudderwock OTK only has positive win rates against 3 classes, one of which is Shaman, and another - Warrior - which has seen tons of experimentation with objectively slow control play in the form of Odd Quest Warrior.
Shudderwock is a powerful card which has not seen nearly enough deck experimentation outside of the OTK. A nerf this early will ruin the card to satisfy mob mentality.
There wouldn't be a problem if Cancerwock didn't share another characteristic with Quest Rogue: the complete and total lack of a tech card that can counter it. You have no way at all to interact with the Shaman's win condition, just as you had no way to interact with a Quest Rogue's ability to complete the quest, so the entire game is decided by draw and nothing else.
One notable difference being Shudder combo takes a while to assemble & most of the early minions are rather weak, whereas Quest Rogue just had to play the Quest, Fire Flies and couple bounces (or Mimic Pod). If they hadn't completed it by then, Igneous Elemental nets half of the quests requirement by itself.
I'm not defending Shudder OTK, I personally think it's the lamest possible way to use Shudderwock when there's plenty of things to explore, but I'm pointing out you can face race Shudder OTK more consistently (even with Control lists) than you could with Quest Rogue: Quest Rogue was just literally auto-lose to Control players, whereas CubeLock and Spiteful Priest can beat OTK Shaman with swing turns before fully assembled Shudder appears.
Your argument is contradicting itself.
You pointed out that Grumblewock and Quest Rogue have approx the same winrate; but your reasoning for why Grumblewock isn't broken is that it's easier to beat? That can't be right, or it would have a lower winrate than Quest Rogue did. And besides, any class with decent AoE or any class that could trade out all their other cards would generally win, Questrogue just dumps their hand turn 6 in a best case scenario and if you could stop that initial rush (blizzard, Equalicrate, etc) then you basically won as their best scenario would be topdecking a 5/5. You at least had responses to it.
Grumblewock is just Exodia Mage except without the reliance on having everything on the field at once, and being able to actually play cards instead of sitting on them.
But as has been said before in this thread, the easiest way to fix it wouldn't be a nerf, it would be to reword Chain Gang to say something like "summon a Saronite Chain Gang" rather than "summon a copy of this card". All of his other interactions are fine; Zola would give you 1 per turn but that's not broken per se since he could easily target one of your opponent's minions. And afaik since Dopplegangster rotated out there isn't anything else that says "summon a copy of this minion" for battlecry.
Just change it so that Grumble cannot return copies of itself to the hand. That way when played by Shudderwock, it won't return its own copies to your hand. It also won't affect regular Grumble plays in 99% of the cases.
What needs fixing is the perception of the HS community. The OTK is frustrating to play against when it works, but it’s a bad deck that works infrequently. (Sure, Toast did well with it, but he’s a pro - especially with memes.) While it’s early to read a lot into the data, OTK Shaman has seen some of the most play, and the HSReplay statistics have it at a ~45% win rate. It spends the whole game playing weak draw cards and low tempo battlecry minions, leaving it vulnerable to all but the slowest control decks.
You might compare this to the Quest Rogue nerf, which also had a poor win rate but was super polarizing. The major difference is that Quest Rogue had some OP matchups. Shudderwock OTK only has positive win rates against 3 classes, one of which is Shaman, and another - Warrior - which has seen tons of experimentation with objectively slow control play in the form of Odd Quest Warrior.
Shudderwock is a powerful card which has not seen nearly enough deck experimentation outside of the OTK. A nerf this early will ruin the card to satisfy mob mentality.
There wouldn't be a problem if Cancerwock didn't share another characteristic with Quest Rogue: the complete and total lack of a tech card that can counter it. You have no way at all to interact with the Shaman's win condition, just as you had no way to interact with a Quest Rogue's ability to complete the quest, so the entire game is decided by draw and nothing else.
One notable difference being Shudder combo takes a while to assemble & most of the early minions are rather weak, whereas Quest Rogue just had to play the Quest, Fire Flies and couple bounces (or Mimic Pod). If they hadn't completed it by then, Igneous Elemental nets half of the quests requirement by itself.
I'm not defending Shudder OTK, I personally think it's the lamest possible way to use Shudderwock when there's plenty of things to explore, but I'm pointing out you can face race Shudder OTK more consistently (even with Control lists) than you could with Quest Rogue: Quest Rogue was just literally auto-lose to Control players, whereas CubeLock and Spiteful Priest can beat OTK Shaman with swing turns before fully assembled Shudder appears.
This hits the nail on the head. The comparison to Quest Rogue feels apt because the deck is a) lowish win rate, b) uninteractable, c) an instant lose when it works. That makes it pretty polarizing, but it's so much slower than decks like pre-nerf Quest Rogue. The OTK is a boring way to play the game, and a very ineffective way to play the game, and I imagine it will fade with time as people realize Shudderwock is more interesting than what they've used him for. Any nerf today would be aggressively reactionary and stymie that process.
This is ridiculous...Why do you people ruin everything that makes a game enjoyable? Shudderwock is a fun minion with so many other synergies! Everyone is just using the lame boring OTK cookie cutter build but there are so many other ways to get a fun OTK or Two turn kill with it that are just as easy. It is a STRONG card but IT isn't broken. It's extremely powerful but not broken.
Using the shudderwock deck doesn't mean you won't ever lose. It's no different than any other OTK deck that other classes have, the only real difference is that when you play Shudderwock you want to blow your brains out because it takes an hour for your turn to end. Get rid of the animations or speed them up. That will alleviate the main issue. If you start putting restrictions on Shudderwock's battlecry then it's just going to become a trash card that won't ever see any play.
I've had more frustrating matches against Baku hunters and Baku pally's than Shudderwock shamans.
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i don't think the shudderwok is the problem here, but lifedrinker, since that's what makes you loose life; an easy nerf to that card would be to only trigger if your hero is damaged;
Suggestion. Changed grumble to "return all elemental minions to your hand . they cost 1"
Bam!!!! all problems solved
Weekly Card Design Competition 10.15
Just change the card text ofSaronite Chain Gang so it summons a copy of it (Like "Battlecry: Summon a copy of Saronite Chain Gang. Set its' attack to be the same as the copy you played" except make it easier on the wording, english isn't my first language so I'm not a 100% sure how to make the text less clunky but there must be a way). Shudderwock itself is a fine, fun card that could boost Elemental and Jade shamans, there's no need to slaughter it over some dumb combo which can be easily fixed.
Qq is all we see about this card
Shudderwock is fine imo (card stand alone), its Grumble that needs to be changed. I would love to see Grumble changed to an end of turn effect rather then a battlecry. I think that would make Grumble much more interesting without shudderwock in the pitcher.
I like the Warsong treatment
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
What needs fixing is the perception of the HS community. The OTK is frustrating to play against when it works, but it’s a bad deck that works infrequently. (Sure, Toast did well with it, but he’s a pro - especially with memes.) While it’s early to read a lot into the data, OTK Shaman has seen some of the most play, and the HSReplay statistics have it at a ~45% win rate. It spends the whole game playing weak draw cards and low tempo battlecry minions, leaving it vulnerable to all but the slowest control decks.
You might compare this to the Quest Rogue nerf, which also had a poor win rate but was super polarizing. The major difference is that Quest Rogue had some OP matchups. Shudderwock OTK only has positive win rates against 3 classes, one of which is Shaman, and another - Warrior - which has seen tons of experimentation with objectively slow control play in the form of Odd Quest Warrior.
Shudderwock is a powerful card which has not seen nearly enough deck experimentation outside of the OTK. A nerf this early will ruin the card to satisfy mob mentality.
I think they should bring back dirty rat. What an awesome card it was. The deck is so reliant on so many cards that pulling a 1-1 by dirty rat would destroy the deck, or at least slow down the opponent so much they can't wiin.
Just change it so that Grumble cannot return copies of itself to the hand. That way when played by Shudderwock, it won't return its own copies to your hand. It also won't affect regular Grumble plays in 99% of the cases.
It is sitting at a 41% winrate atm: https://hsreplay.net/meta/
No need to nerf, just a day 1 miracle
This is ridiculous...Why do you people ruin everything that makes a game enjoyable? Shudderwock is a fun minion with so many other synergies! Everyone is just using the lame boring OTK cookie cutter build but there are so many other ways to get a fun OTK or Two turn kill with it that are just as easy. It is a STRONG card but IT isn't broken. It's extremely powerful but not broken.
Using the shudderwock deck doesn't mean you won't ever lose. It's no different than any other OTK deck that other classes have, the only real difference is that when you play Shudderwock you want to blow your brains out because it takes an hour for your turn to end. Get rid of the animations or speed them up. That will alleviate the main issue. If you start putting restrictions on Shudderwock's battlecry then it's just going to become a trash card that won't ever see any play.
I've had more frustrating matches against Baku hunters and Baku pally's than Shudderwock shamans.