While I agree that the cards so far revealed haven't been 'exciting' and ya the first xpac of the new year generally does have less power cards, I wouldn't call them weaker cards or xpacs. Un Goro didn't have many power cards but it had a lot of quality cards; not many great or meta defining cards but a ton of playable cards (it even took a little while for those great cards to emerege). Thats what I'm hoping for from WW... a ton of quality/just playable cards that continue to diversify the standard meta and provide the base for the next two expansion to build on.
On a different note though... the standard meta is the healthiest it has been. So folks need to calm down about the Warlock/Cubelock fear. There are a lot of players heavily teching against Warlock enough that its best decks are getting pushed to T2. No nerfs are needed at all... even Mage, Paladin, and Priest are going to get hit come rotation. What is needed is some fresh cards for Warrior, Shaman, Druid, Rogue, and Hunter. Its a great time for a balanced/ quality focused expansion.
I really hope we dont end up with another grand tournament or mean streets
Mean Streets was probably the strongest expansion ever printed...
Apart from that I actually DO hope the power level won't get out of control with this expansion. MTG made the mistake of too much power creep back in the day and I hope hearthstone has learned from that.
I also don't think every expansion has to reinvent the game like Un'Guro and KFT did with Quests and Deathknights. Just a nice flavourful expansion with INTERESTING cards more than OP cards would be appreciated for me at least. This is the one expansion of the year where they can afford to print somewhat weak cards, because the meta is going to turn upside down no matter what they print due to the rotation...
Except that Bloodreaver Gul'dan and the whole controllock core and Call to Arms are not going anywhere. Unless we get some insane countercards/decks, the meta is not going to change at all, and we get another "the Grand Tournament" fiasco, where combo druid, patron warrior, tempo mage and handlock were still duking it out unchanged along with a slightly stronger control warrior and the new cancer secret paladin.
There's a lot of cards which, on the face of it, look more focused on memery than being powerful but there's a fair chunk which at least look playable. More importantly, with the arguable exception of odds and evens, I'm not seeing forced synergy where cards need other cards to be playable which is something I was pretty fed up of from recent xpacs. It's way too early to be making generalisations about the whole set though.
That said the legendaries so far haven't appealed to me much. One which adds an oppressive tool to an already oppressive class (Godfrey), one which looks nuts (Houndmaster Shaw) a fun but probably bad rogue legendary (Face Collector) and then the rest seem super gimmicky. Hopefully there's better legendaries on the way.
Why do we have threads like this when in the previous expansion we had the exact same argument come up when cards like voidlord were showed early on and nobody saw the degenerate combo coming until the rest of the cards were revealed. A lot of cards don't feel powerful because on their own they are not. It takes a degenerate combo to break them.
And that is the thing about card reviews. When the community review cards, they are looking for something that is obviously broken or meta defining to get excited about. When a card like drakonid operative was first revealed, look at the initial comments. People loved the card despite the fact it was broken as hell. Cards that are actually fair which is good for the game get dismissed because they are not broken enough and that is not good. One card should not win you the game by itself. And if the power level gets toned down then that is actually good for the game because nobody wants decks like the yarr shouting, jack sparrow fanboying pirate warrior back that could kill you by turn 4.
I would say if their are ways a card can be useful, do not automatically dismiss it. The echo and rush cards can all be useful in terms of being able to use a card repeatedly on the same turn or killing something when they come out and they should not be underestimated. Rush proved itself to be a very strong mechanic in shadowverse and I feel people are really underestimating how strong a minion being able to instantly trade and kill something when it comes on the board actually is. If a minion trades and kills another minion when it comes into play than that is a huge tempo swing.
And cards being able to be casted multiple times in a turn in order to build a wall such as phantom militia, a repeatable deal two damage to a minion such as hunting mastiff or being a repeatable board clear such as warpath should not be underestimated. Echo and rush cards are good cards for the game.
You really can't tell how the meta is going to shake up this early. Some cards are sleeper OP and it takes playing with them to understand just how good they are (e.g. the Creeper, before they nerfed it from orbit, and the warlock weapon)
In K&C there were some power spike in certain cards while the rest of the set was not so good, but it was also the last expansion set of the Year of the Mammoth. WW is the first set of the Year of the Raven so it needs to bring lots more solid cards because the rotation will throw out tons of consolidated minions and spells. For now we've seen just few cards and it's too early to decide, so lets wait a bit more.
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For what profit is it to a man, if he gains the world and loses his own soul?
I'm not sure those who are worried about the low power level of Witchwood understand how crucial it is that this set now doesn't just obliterate in power level everything else.
a new year is starting, with Un'goro (fairly weak, too spread out) KOtFT (strong, oppressive and F2P unfriendly because of the DKs and multiple must have Epics) and K&C (fair mixture of power I would say after the rotation, aside from Warlock needing a look) and it is a very dangerous time indeed to show overwhelming support for any archetype just yet. what you risk is to support existing powerful decks already to the point that the future sets coming out will basically need to be overpowered to all hell to even be considered playable.
remember The Grand Tournament? almost none of that shit was playable, it was a low power expansion delivered after Naxx, GvG and BRM, of which Naxx and GvG were backbreaking and BRM had some key cards for some powerhouse decks later.
in short ; the starting year should not start too strong or show too much support for any one archetype, because it might be too powerful to be stopped by anything except the blatantly overpowered. don't give up on Odd/Even and similar mechanics, they have more than a year to work out.
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''He traded sands for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand.''
this is the expansion that last for two years, now imagine if Patches had been printed during whispers of old gods and not nerfed until he rotated next april, WOULD YOU REALLY HAVE WANTED 2 YEARS OF PATCHES?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, anyways rush is a good mechanic the explanation is simple, a card that is able to have impact on the board as soon as it's played and survive is basically a 2x1, and i don't know if you know this super old tcg basic concept that's one of the first things you should learn to actually "git gud" but 2 for 1cards are actually really powerful.
While I agree that the cards so far revealed haven't been 'exciting' and ya the first xpac of the new year generally does have less power cards, I wouldn't call them weaker cards or xpacs. Un Goro didn't have many power cards but it had a lot of quality cards; not many great or meta defining cards but a ton of playable cards (it even took a little while for those great cards to emerege). Thats what I'm hoping for from WW... a ton of quality/just playable cards that continue to diversify the standard meta and provide the base for the next two expansion to build on.
On a different note though... the standard meta is the healthiest it has been. So folks need to calm down about the Warlock/Cubelock fear. There are a lot of players heavily teching against Warlock enough that its best decks are getting pushed to T2. No nerfs are needed at all... even Mage, Paladin, and Priest are going to get hit come rotation. What is needed is some fresh cards for Warrior, Shaman, Druid, Rogue, and Hunter. Its a great time for a balanced/ quality focused expansion.
But this is my point: the meta is sort of holding together because most classes have some busted cards which keep warlock in check. I'm not sure Witchwood is providing the kind of tools one needs to keep warlock honest. Right now priest is performing that role, and maybe secret mage (and I guess kingsbane, but geez). Priest is not going to look that great without netherspites and drakkonnids (and pint sized which I find to be a key card in that matchup). Secret mage is going to be gutted. Not sure how to tech against warlock if the key tools are gone. But you are right, it is a bit early to tell. I just hope they make big spell mage viable.
i know not to many card have been released for witchwood yet. but personally im getting a really weak vibe from almost all the cards shown so far and hagatha was supposed to be the big "wow" card like reno or nzoth etc yet it seems rather underwhelming in theory. i really hope we dont end up with another grand tournament or mean streets
anyone else feeling the same?
Why Grand Tournament? It had many very strong cards
What? like 4 of the grand tournament neutral cards were viable. Most classes only had 1 or 2 viable card additions. The only class that got a lot from TGT was shaman. I can probably list 100+ cards from TGT that saw no play in constructed.
Unfortunately TGT had mysterious challenger, which defined the meta, but the set overall was awful.
If somehow blizzard manages to lower the current power level and give us a way to counter the current warlock/paladin shenanigans, I would be a very happy man
I find everything so far about this expansion as very uninteresting. I would like to see Hearthstone introduce more complex mechanics like mtg, but instead we get boring crap like if your deck has all even or all odd cards in it. Between this Warlock meta, and this boring looking expansion I think I will be taking a break from the game for awhile.
As of now, I would say the power level is pretty strong. I'm seeing a lot of potential synergies. I'm surprised no one has mentioned turn 3 Mountain Giant. I also expect a class like Warrior or Shaman to receive an 8-10 man spell which means Spiteful Summoner shenanigans. I hope i'm wrong though, I want to see them go away from all the highroll crap.
It's too early to say. All the busted cards could be at the end.
But that has always been my criticism for reveal season. It's planned wierd. Some classes get all their exciting cards late in the reveals. Support cards aren't revealed together and you get a To My Side situation. The aggro, mid-range, and control cards aren't spread out to keep everyone excited. So you get 50% of the players super excited in the first week and the other 50% waiting for the final reveal stream and card dump.
I mean I'm not hyped to play ANY of the decks Blizzard is pushing. I love Witchwood's flavor but the cards bore me.
Many of the rush creatures do seems on the weaker side but I do think that hagatha has great potential making any creature to a babbling book is amazing ability considering that shaman spells are mostly good.
Other then that both the warlock legendary creature are great and will probably see play.
I guess we will have to wait and see.
im going to have to counter you on a few of those points.
the 2/5 rush and the hunter legendary seems strong. a good removal tool for warrior and a midrange board control minion for hunter. but theres no telling if those decks will exist
lordgodfrey is going to be powerful obviously, but glinda feels more like a meme than anything but its a cool/fun card
and hagatha is quite a let down imo. on turn 8, 3 damage aoe isnt going to be killing too much. and random shaman spells are generally pretty bad, and they overload you which then messes up your following turns
Why do people continue to forget the true identity of Shaman IS Overload. It is not freeze or evolve or anything else, people also seem to think Hagatha works like the Runespear and casts the spell. It does not cast the spells it puts it in your hand so you control when and how much you Overload, like a true Shaman.
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Courage is not the absence of fear, Courage is the presence of faith.
I suppose we can hope... Right now I feel like Hunter has gotten some decentish cards but I don't see that as the class to balance warlock.
I will just leave this here :
Lord Godfrey <- Something like Defile v2.0
We'll see what other imba cards will Witchwood have.
This world needs to know pain. DEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATHWWWIINGGGGG.
While I agree that the cards so far revealed haven't been 'exciting' and ya the first xpac of the new year generally does have less power cards, I wouldn't call them weaker cards or xpacs. Un Goro didn't have many power cards but it had a lot of quality cards; not many great or meta defining cards but a ton of playable cards (it even took a little while for those great cards to emerege). Thats what I'm hoping for from WW... a ton of quality/just playable cards that continue to diversify the standard meta and provide the base for the next two expansion to build on.
On a different note though... the standard meta is the healthiest it has been. So folks need to calm down about the Warlock/Cubelock fear. There are a lot of players heavily teching against Warlock enough that its best decks are getting pushed to T2. No nerfs are needed at all... even Mage, Paladin, and Priest are going to get hit come rotation. What is needed is some fresh cards for Warrior, Shaman, Druid, Rogue, and Hunter. Its a great time for a balanced/ quality focused expansion.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
There's a lot of cards which, on the face of it, look more focused on memery than being powerful but there's a fair chunk which at least look playable. More importantly, with the arguable exception of odds and evens, I'm not seeing forced synergy where cards need other cards to be playable which is something I was pretty fed up of from recent xpacs. It's way too early to be making generalisations about the whole set though.
That said the legendaries so far haven't appealed to me much. One which adds an oppressive tool to an already oppressive class (Godfrey), one which looks nuts (Houndmaster Shaw) a fun but probably bad rogue legendary (Face Collector) and then the rest seem super gimmicky. Hopefully there's better legendaries on the way.
Why do we have threads like this when in the previous expansion we had the exact same argument come up when cards like voidlord were showed early on and nobody saw the degenerate combo coming until the rest of the cards were revealed. A lot of cards don't feel powerful because on their own they are not. It takes a degenerate combo to break them.
And that is the thing about card reviews. When the community review cards, they are looking for something that is obviously broken or meta defining to get excited about. When a card like drakonid operative was first revealed, look at the initial comments. People loved the card despite the fact it was broken as hell. Cards that are actually fair which is good for the game get dismissed because they are not broken enough and that is not good. One card should not win you the game by itself. And if the power level gets toned down then that is actually good for the game because nobody wants decks like the yarr shouting, jack sparrow fanboying pirate warrior back that could kill you by turn 4.
I would say if their are ways a card can be useful, do not automatically dismiss it. The echo and rush cards can all be useful in terms of being able to use a card repeatedly on the same turn or killing something when they come out and they should not be underestimated. Rush proved itself to be a very strong mechanic in shadowverse and I feel people are really underestimating how strong a minion being able to instantly trade and kill something when it comes on the board actually is. If a minion trades and kills another minion when it comes into play than that is a huge tempo swing.
And cards being able to be casted multiple times in a turn in order to build a wall such as phantom militia, a repeatable deal two damage to a minion such as hunting mastiff or being a repeatable board clear such as warpath should not be underestimated. Echo and rush cards are good cards for the game.
Powerlevel and enjoyment do not necessarily go hand in hand.
You really can't tell how the meta is going to shake up this early. Some cards are sleeper OP and it takes playing with them to understand just how good they are (e.g. the Creeper, before they nerfed it from orbit, and the warlock weapon)
In K&C there were some power spike in certain cards while the rest of the set was not so good, but it was also the last expansion set of the Year of the Mammoth. WW is the first set of the Year of the Raven so it needs to bring lots more solid cards because the rotation will throw out tons of consolidated minions and spells. For now we've seen just few cards and it's too early to decide, so lets wait a bit more.
For what profit is it to a man, if he gains the world and loses his own soul?
I'm not sure those who are worried about the low power level of Witchwood understand how crucial it is that this set now doesn't just obliterate in power level everything else.
a new year is starting, with Un'goro (fairly weak, too spread out) KOtFT (strong, oppressive and F2P unfriendly because of the DKs and multiple must have Epics) and K&C (fair mixture of power I would say after the rotation, aside from Warlock needing a look) and it is a very dangerous time indeed to show overwhelming support for any archetype just yet. what you risk is to support existing powerful decks already to the point that the future sets coming out will basically need to be overpowered to all hell to even be considered playable.
remember The Grand Tournament? almost none of that shit was playable, it was a low power expansion delivered after Naxx, GvG and BRM, of which Naxx and GvG were backbreaking and BRM had some key cards for some powerhouse decks later.
in short ; the starting year should not start too strong or show too much support for any one archetype, because it might be too powerful to be stopped by anything except the blatantly overpowered. don't give up on Odd/Even and similar mechanics, they have more than a year to work out.
''He traded sands for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand.''
(.o.))~ ~(('o') (.o.))~
So far I really worried with warlocks.
Many other decks will become weaker or vanishing after rotation and this new set don't have nothing so far to completely destroy them.
So, or Blizzard smash the class very, very hard, with nerf hammer or will be the same nightmare one class rules all like shaman before.
this is the expansion that last for two years, now imagine if Patches had been printed during whispers of old gods and not nerfed until he rotated next april, WOULD YOU REALLY HAVE WANTED 2 YEARS OF PATCHES?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, anyways rush is a good mechanic the explanation is simple, a card that is able to have impact on the board as soon as it's played and survive is basically a 2x1, and i don't know if you know this super old tcg basic concept that's one of the first things you should learn to actually "git gud" but 2 for 1cards are actually really powerful.
I'm not against them lowering the power level, don't get me wrong, I just don't want to have no options but to play warlock.
To FTPhack: I t
If somehow blizzard manages to lower the current power level and give us a way to counter the current warlock/paladin shenanigans, I would be a very happy man
I find everything so far about this expansion as very uninteresting. I would like to see Hearthstone introduce more complex mechanics like mtg, but instead we get boring crap like if your deck has all even or all odd cards in it. Between this Warlock meta, and this boring looking expansion I think I will be taking a break from the game for awhile.
As of now, I would say the power level is pretty strong. I'm seeing a lot of potential synergies. I'm surprised no one has mentioned turn 3 Mountain Giant. I also expect a class like Warrior or Shaman to receive an 8-10 man spell which means Spiteful Summoner shenanigans. I hope i'm wrong though, I want to see them go away from all the highroll crap.
It's too early to say. All the busted cards could be at the end.
But that has always been my criticism for reveal season. It's planned wierd. Some classes get all their exciting cards late in the reveals. Support cards aren't revealed together and you get a To My Side situation. The aggro, mid-range, and control cards aren't spread out to keep everyone excited. So you get 50% of the players super excited in the first week and the other 50% waiting for the final reveal stream and card dump.
I mean I'm not hyped to play ANY of the decks Blizzard is pushing. I love Witchwood's flavor but the cards bore me.
Courage is not the absence of fear, Courage is the presence of faith.