Hearthpwn

Has your list changed at all since the reveal stream?

Quote from RobotNinja235542 >>

Has your list changed at all since the reveal stream?

I guess this is how you can tell someone put absolutely no thought into making a tier list.

Swift messenger is not a good card. What are you thinking?

Ravencaller is above Witching Hour. Now THAT's funny.

Chameleos offers scouting every turn and selective use of one of whatever the fuck you want from your opponent's hand. I don't think it's as good as many others do but it's certainly not bad.

Cheap Shot is sort of removal. I can understand where you're coming from but I don't feel it quite deserves its placement.

Hidden Wisdom draws 2 cards. The only other cards that draw 2 cards that never saw play were Sense Demons and Fight Promoter, and both of those had horrible downsides that made them inconsistent in power. Hidden Wisdom will likely be a 1 of in every paladin deck a week from now and I have no fucking idea how you could think otherwise with how easy its requirement is to fulfill.

Nightscale Matriarch is a big dude that requires an immediate answer or it spirals out of control. It's a win more card and that's the only reason I can think of as to why you think it's bad, but it also happens to be good on an empty board so...

Pick Pocket can give you up to 5 cards for 1 deck slot. Its far from broken but I'd never call it useless.

Vivid Nightmare is basically a better Mirage Caller effect without a body attached. You might actually be right about this one.

Witching Hour enables a 21 damage 3 card combo that costs 9 mana that can be performed twice per game. Honestly this list lost all credibility to me the moment I saw you call this card bad. 

Your list is trash, yo.

Quote from CookieFamous >>

My suggestions are as follows:

• Azalina Soulthief ↑↑ (T2) - You can refill your hand in a pinch, or steal the enemy's win condition if you time it well.
• Glinda Crowskin (Will see play in Wild, however.) ↑ (T2.5) If there is some high-attack, low-cost cards available, with proper refill of the hand, Rush might become the Hunter AOE.
• Phantom Militia ↑ (T2.5) It's not as bad as it seems.
• Vivid Nightmare ↑ (T2.5) This card has more to it than it seems at first. Also very good in an odd-deck, where you can heal the minion for 4 instantly.

 

Quote from lennon255 >>

I guess this is how you can tell someone put absolutely no thought into making a tier list.

Swift messenger is not a good card. What are you thinking?

Ravencaller is above Witching Hour. Now THAT's funny.

Chameleos offers scouting every turn and selective use of one of whatever the fuck you want from your opponent's hand. I don't think it's as good as many others do but it's certainly not bad.

Cheap Shot is sort of removal. I can understand where you're coming from but I don't feel it quite deserves its placement.

Hidden Wisdom draws 2 cards. The only other cards that draw 2 cards that never saw play were Sense Demons and Fight Promoter, and both of those had horrible downsides that made them inconsistent in power. Hidden Wisdom will likely be a 1 of in every paladin deck a week from now and I have no fucking idea how you could think otherwise with how easy its requirement is to fulfill.

Nightscale Matriarch is a big dude that requires an immediate answer or it spirals out of control. It's a win more card and that's the only reason I can think of as to why you think it's bad, but it also happens to be good on an empty board so...

Pick Pocket can give you up to 5 cards for 1 deck slot. Its far from broken but I'd never call it useless.

Vivid Nightmare is basically a better Mirage Caller effect without a body attached. You might actually be right about this one.

Witching Hour enables a 21 damage 3 card combo that costs 8 mana that can be performed twice per game. Honestly this list lost all credibility to me the moment I saw you call this card bad. 

Your list is trash, yo.

Quote from 17arkOracle >>

 

Quote from lennon255 >>

 

Swift Messenger is up there solely because I think Rush warrior needs another Rush to be viable. Originally it was Tier 3. I might switch it with Rabid Worgen, though hypothetically I think the extremes of Swift Messenger are better than Rabid's middle of the road stats.

Ravencaller's because cards that let you refuel are oftentimes pretty good. It has significant drawbacks, but that at least was my thought process. (I may change my mind on this one, though.)

Chameleos: I'm not really sure how valuable scouting is. It'll never really guarantee they don't have something, particularly against control when knowing their hand is more useful. The opponent's cards, while not awful, will also never really synergize with your cards.

I think rogues just don't really need Cheap Shot. The problem is it's just so awful at low costs (especially for more tempo based rogues) and while kinda mediocre at higher costs, at that point you could just run things like Vilespine Slayer where you don't even have to worry about dealing damage.

Hidden Wisdom: Your opponent just isn't going to play 3 cards in a single turn. It's just so incredibly, incredibly rare except against very specific decks.

Nightmare Matriarch: Cards that have to stick are almost universally bad, since by that late in the game your opponent has either killed you, or has access to strong enough removal. I did actually flip-flop on it though, since it does have a really good statline, a decent effect, and could go in dragon priest.

For Pick Pocket: I mean, Sprint gives you 4 cards for 7-mana and has seen no play as of late. It doesn't help that random cards can be pretty awful, so you can spend your whole turn 4 or 6 drawing cards you can't even really play. At least cards like Blink Fox put a minion on the board. (It doesn't help that rogues are spoiled for choice when it comes to card draw right now.)

Witching Hour: What combo are you thinking of? The problem with big combos tends to be if you draw one card but not the other it can be a dead card the entire game. Big priest and cubelock get around this by both cheating out the minions they need, and then by being able to use several different minions (all great and playable on their own) to fufill the combo condition. A 21-damage combo can kill the deck if the combo requires set-up, cards that can only be used in that combo, and minions that are otherwise mediocre.

Quote from lennon255 >>

 

Quote from 17arkOracle >>

 

Quote from lennon255 >>

 

 

 

Swift Messenger: I don't think Swift Messenger will be good because I don't think Rush Warrior will be good. Think about its matchups, it's not exactly favored against much. 

Ravencaller: Your average 1 drop is not a good card, especially when the earliest you can play it is turn 4 and you get it from playing a 3 drop with meh 1 drop stats. I think Ravencaller will see some use in Zoo early on and will not perform very well in it.

Chameleos: Fair enough.

Cheap Shot: I heard people say similar things about Forbidden Flame. Forbidden Flame was useful to have as a flexible removal tool. I realize that I'm comparing cards for two different classes but hear me out. Cheap Shot isn't as flexible with its cost as it can only use mana 2 at a time, but it can spread damage across multiple minions and benefits massively from spell damage. I think this card is better than you give it credit for specifically because Rogue already has plenty of other good spells that they don't mind putting int their decks to begin with (Eviscerate, Fan of Knives, Backstab). This could make it worthwhile to run Bloodmage Thalnos or maybe even Tainted Zealot for consistency. Vilespine Slayer is not a good comparison.

Hidden Wisdom: What exactly are you playing against that your opponents NEVER play 3 cards in one turn for the entire match? I don't believe you.

Nightmare Matriarch: It's a big dragon with good stats that match up well against Priests and Warlocks, which are the two current strongest classes. Worst case scenario this eats a Siphon Soul, Mind Control, Hex, or Execute. Execute is a warrior card and warriors are losing just about everything that matters for their non-recruit decks in the rotation so I don't think it's really worth considering your match up against the worst class of the expansion. Siphon Soul means there's one less Siphon Soul to target Ysera and with Blastcrystal Potion leaving standard, Warlock is going to have a hell of a time taking her down. Warlock has historically had a bad time against Ysera. Mind Control is actually rather bad for you as priest doesn't have many other answers for Nightmare Matriarch post rotation. Hex is a bad time but I don't think this is worth considering either since once people figure out the right list for it Shaman is probably going to have a 200% winrate against every kind of priest anyway, I'll add the list after I'm finished steamrolling my way to legend as Shaman in a few days. 

Pick Pocket: No one runs sprint because it's not worth running a 7 mana draw 4 in a meta where you can have Coldlight Oracle and Elven Minstrel in the same deck. That was a really bad argument against this card's viability and you know it. Also, Pick Pocket can generate up to 5 cards for 1 deck slot. On average those cards won't be very good but it's easy value generation and it works with Tess Greymane. The real weakness of this card is how bad Shaman cards can be for other classes that can't handle the overload.

Witching Hour: Get a Charged Devilsaur to die, summon it back with Witching Hour (3 mana) and smash face, Carnivorous Cube that shit (5 mana), Naturalize the Cube (1 mana) and smash face for 14 more. It requires the tiniest bit of set-up in getting your devilsaur killed but you can use Silver Vanguard to recruit it which is slightly cheaper and means you don't need to actually draw it. It's worth noting that if you recruit the Devilsaur with 9 mana already you can deal 28 damage instead of 21 by hitting face with the recruited Devilsaur before you cube it and after cubing it using Witching Hour to summon another. And before you say anything about the use of Naturalize, it doesn't matter how many cards your opponent has when they're dead. EDIT: I just noticed that in my previous post I miss-clicked 8 instead of 9 when stating the mana cost. My bad.

Chameleos will be in every priest deck lol you are ridiculous. 

Quote from Poghy >>

If your tier 1 is only about cards that making a currently tier 1 deck better, I think it should only include Lord Godfrey and Dark Possession.

IMO Countess Ashmore is overrated, and right now I dont see how she makes any deck better. You can build around her, but that not neccessarily makes your deck better. Maybe Im wrong about this, but I havent seen a solid theorycraft deck so far that makes good use of her.

Speaking of theorycraft decks: Shudderwock. You have these subdivisions in Tier 2, and I think the shaman legendary should have its own. I have seen some very promising theorycrafts about this new archetype. If the Shudder deck will work, these cards will be certainly in it:

Lifedrinker: Its an overcosted Earthen Ring Farseer in the deck in itself, but this battlecry will be the finisher, and the body and the heal will help stalling. Its a bad (but not horrible) card in itself, but its essential in the deck. Tier 2.

Sandbinder: Unlike the previous card, this is decent in itself. Its also essential to find your combo pieces. Tier 2.

Witchwood Piper could be also included in the deck but Im not 100% sure it will stay in the mostly refined version. The same goes for Blazing Invocation.

There is also 1 card that seems like the sleeper of the set: Night Prowler. Its condition is pretty easy to fulfill, and a 4 mana 6/6 is super good. Its not as strong as the pre-nerf Corridor Creeper, but much better than the nerfed one.

 

The other 1-cost discover cards have never seen play because they don't kill lakey or update spellstone, just the sinergy worth it.

Countess Ashmore is a good card by itself, but it's expensive and doesn't impact the board. If the meta goes agro as usual it won't see play.

I see, you think that shaman will be the new razakus but I highly doubt that Blizzard would repeat the same mistake twice in a row.

The problem with night prowler is that if you play agro you'll have a dead card in hand until you opponent resets the board and when that happens a 7/7 may not be good enough. If you play control the benefit is not good enough.

Quote from RevonB >>

I think you focus too much about which cards will make it into current decks. I think it's the biggest mistake people make when evaluating new cards. If you are looking for 1 for 1 replacements then of course you will not find many.

However, what I see is that most cards fit just right on the power curve, unlike TGT for example. Yes some cards are not "amazing" but they are not bad either. They are just right for their mana cost. And that's what the game needs to avoid powercreep.

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I predict that many of the "bad" cards you listed will make it into some decks.

Quote from massakre >>

The other 1-cost discover cards have never seen play because they don't kill lakey or update spellstone, just the sinergy worth it.

Countess Ashmore is a good card by itself, but it's expensive and doesn't impact the board. If the meta goes agro as usual it won't see play.

I see, you think that shaman will be the new razakus but I highly doubt that Blizzard would repeat the same mistake twice in a row.

The problem with night prowler is that if you play agro you'll have a dead card in hand until you opponent resets the board and when that happens a 7/7 may not be good enough. If you play control the benefit is not good enough.